I fought about this so hard in the past, but I guess this is just not the group to have this discussion with. Is it semantics? Maybe the definition of gender isn’t the same definition as a person sex. Ok I get that, but I think now the rules have changed. You can now define your gender, and anyone who does not accept your definition is an intolerant hater who needs to be shut down for their hateful speech. I tried warning everyone about this, but here we are. Do you move forward with the thinking that gender is a subjective concept, or is there any standard we can all live by?
or is there any standard we can all live by?No way. Transgendered people are best avoided. Fortunately they are very few.
I fought about this so hard in the past, but I guess this is just not the group to have this discussion with. Is it semantics? Maybe the definition of gender isn't the same definition as a person sex. Ok I get that, but I think now the rules have changed. You can now define your gender, and anyone who does not accept your definition is an intolerant hater who needs to be shut down for their hateful speech. I tried warning everyone about this, but here we are. Do you move forward with the thinking that gender is a subjective concept, or is there any standard we can all live by?Who would be in charge of stopping people from defining his own gender? Should it be against the law for anyone to feel as if his gender does fit his genitalia? Would you have police checking everyone to be sure everyone is dressing and using toilet facilities according to their gender and citing them if they do not? Just how far would you take this? Since you asked, gender is something that is applied to nouns not people. "Sex" is the word to use for people. I, myself, do not like using the word "gender" instead of "sex" but the semi-illiterates have won yet again! It's a battle not worth fighting. I've given up. Quite
I fought about this so hard in the past, but I guess this is just not the group to have this discussion with. Is it semantics? Maybe the definition of gender isn't the same definition as a person sex. Ok I get that, but I think now the rules have changed. You can now define your gender, and anyone who does not accept your definition is an intolerant hater who needs to be shut down for their hateful speech. I tried warning everyone about this, but here we are. Do you move forward with the thinking that gender is a subjective concept, or is there any standard we can all live by?There are all kind of standards we can live by. I'm prefer to reject bigotry like that Beltane expressed and let people live as they want. Native American tribes had no problems with people who blurred or crossed conventional gender roles. Unfortunately our European ancestors wiped out the native peoples to make way for shopping malls, Super Bowls and bigots.
I fought about this so hard in the past, but I guess this is just not the group to have this discussion with. Is it semantics? Maybe the definition of gender isn't the same definition as a person sex. Ok I get that, but I think now the rules have changed. You can now define your gender, and anyone who does not accept your definition is an intolerant hater who needs to be shut down for their hateful speech. I tried warning everyone about this, but here we are. Do you move forward with the thinking that gender is a subjective concept, or is there any standard we can all live by?Who would be in charge of stopping people from defining his own gender? Should it be against the law for anyone to feel as if his gender does fit his genitalia? Would you have police checking everyone to be sure everyone is dressing and using toilet facilities according to their gender and citing them if they do not? Just how far would you take this? Since you asked, gender is something that is applied to nouns not people. "Sex" is the word to use for people. I, myself, do not like using the word "gender" instead of "sex" but the semi-illiterates have won yet again! It's a battle not worth fighting. I've given up. Quite I get this argument, but the idea of gender is getting tied to sex. What's really getting crazy now is that people are starting to add new genders. There's not just a binary view of gender, but now an endless number of possibilities that a persons gender can now be. Gender by the modern liberal thinking a completely non-binary.
I fought about this so hard in the past, but I guess this is just not the group to have this discussion with. Is it semantics? Maybe the definition of gender isn't the same definition as a person sex. Ok I get that, but I think now the rules have changed. You can now define your gender, and anyone who does not accept your definition is an intolerant hater who needs to be shut down for their hateful speech. I tried warning everyone about this, but here we are. Do you move forward with the thinking that gender is a subjective concept, or is there any standard we can all live by?There are all kind of standards we can live by. I'm prefer to reject bigotry like that Beltane expressed and let people live as they want. Native American tribes had no problems with people who blurred or crossed conventional gender roles. Unfortunately our European ancestors wiped out the native peoples to make way for shopping malls, Super Bowls and bigots. WHAT? How did this cross over into wiping out the Indians, shopping malls, and the Super Bowl?
I’m on the same side as Lois and Darron. I do admit to feeling a little uncomfortable with the idea of “transgendered” people, who define their sex by their state of mind, by the way they happen to feel on any given day. And at the same, I have to look within myself and admit that I can understand where they’re coming from. I write a lot of fan fiction myself, and there are times when I have to “get into the head” of female characters. I can see the appeal in that. If I met a transgendered person, I’m not entirely sure I’d recognize him or her unless they came out and said so. Isn’t it really such a horrible thing? Freedom to be who you are – that’s what Humanism stands for.
I fought about this so hard in the past, but I guess this is just not the group to have this discussion with. Is it semantics? Maybe the definition of gender isn't the same definition as a person sex. Ok I get that, but I think now the rules have changed. You can now define your gender, and anyone who does not accept your definition is an intolerant hater who needs to be shut down for their hateful speech. I tried warning everyone about this, but here we are. Do you move forward with the thinking that gender is a subjective concept, or is there any standard we can all live by?There are all kind of standards we can live by. I'm prefer to reject bigotry like that Beltane expressed and let people live as they want. Native American tribes had no problems with people who blurred or crossed conventional gender roles. Unfortunately our European ancestors wiped out the native peoples to make way for shopping malls, Super Bowls and bigots. WHAT? How did this cross over into wiping out the Indians, shopping malls, and the Super Bowl? Read my post again. Bigotry is bigotry. Doesn't matter if it is bigotry directed against transgender people or indigenous people, it is still bigotry. No need to sugar coat this. You're not coming across as the bigot here, Beltane is. I have zero tolerance for bigotry, hence the diatribe.
I'm on the same side as Lois and Darron. I do admit to feeling a little uncomfortable with the idea of "transgendered" people, who define their sex by their state of mind, by the way they happen to feel on any given day. And at the same, I have to look within myself and admit that I can understand where they're coming from. I write a lot of fan fiction myself, and there are times when I have to "get into the head" of female characters. I can see the appeal in that. If I met a transgendered person, I'm not entirely sure I'd recognize him or her unless they came out and said so. Isn't it really such a horrible thing? Freedom to be who you are -- that's what Humanism stands for.I'm actually ok that a person wants to define who they are for themselves. It gets sticky when you have people who are demanding that the rest of society accept these labels. Now we're up to something like 60 genders where people now can define what they are, and anyone who disagrees is an intolerant bigot. This is where I struggle with the left. I grew up pretty far left for the majority of my life, but I started to realize that not all things are about accepting change. It doesn't make you a better person to say that all new ideas are good ideas. DarronS showed a great example of what the left has become. It's now a label monster who tags anyone who doesn't follow the group mentality as a bigot, racist, fascist etc... Liberalism has become such a hostile group, that they've resorted to yelling, and attacking anyone who disagrees.
The suicide rate among these groups of people is way above the norm. I believe this “situation” is still classified as a disorder or condition
in medical journals.
There’s no reason to believe that the suicide rate is caused by discrimination or “unacceptance” by society.
Occam’s Razor would point to the obvious. These individuals as a whole are troubled and have issues.
That’s readily apparent.
I also believe that it is turning into a type of “mass-mania”. It’s self generating more and more cases due to the numbers of troubled folks who now can latch onto an identity that is receiving alot of public scrutiny, acceptance, wonderment etc…
The whole Bruce Jenner thing didn’t help. That’s damaging to society.
Disorders and conditions shouldn’t be encouraged and made into a fashion or a trend.
Again, Occam’s Razor points to the obvious. It’s science.
People are supposed to normally identify with the given sex they were born with.
It’s not difficult to realize this.
Now how do we address this as a society? That is difficult.
This is why in the past these folks were closeted and shunned.
Disorders and conditions should be treated where possible and the people should be free to go about their business as long as it doesn’t start interfering with social systems and checks.
For example the recent stories about Transgendered girls wrestling other girls is just ridiculous!
Men wanting to use the ladies restrooms is just ridiculous!
Society should set up norms on what the majority of people want-socially and psychologically. That society is what’s relevant.
And to answer your original question, of course he should. This is hard for a lot if people to understand but not everyone is born 100 percent cent male or female. Some are born with both sex organs and doctors have to decide on a gender immediately. Some people are born with gender specific sexual organs but for various reasons are psychologically the opposite gender.
A better question is, “How can you ethically justify forcing genders roles on people?”
This is where I struggle with the left. I grew up pretty far left for the majority of my life, but I started to realize that not all things are about accepting change. It doesn't make you a better person to say that all new ideas are good ideas. DarronS showed a great example of what the left has become. It's now a label monster who tags anyone who doesn't follow the group mentality as a bigot, racist, fascist etc... Liberalism has become such a hostile group, that they've resorted to yelling, and attacking anyone who disagrees.I've slowly realized this myself in the past 2 years. Lot's of people are seeing this. If you would have told me 3 years ago that I would eventually arrive at this stance, I would have laughed. But here we are.
The suicide rate among these groups of people is way above the norm. I believe this "situation" is still classified as a disorder or condition in medical journals. There's no reason to believe that the suicide rate is caused by discrimination or "unacceptance" by society. Occam's Razor would point to the obvious. These individuals as a whole are troubled and have issues. That's readily apparent. I also believe that it is turning into a type of "mass-mania". It's self generating more and more cases due to the numbers of troubled folks who now can latch onto an identity that is receiving alot of public scrutiny, acceptance, wonderment etc... The whole Bruce Jenner thing didn't help. That's damaging to society. Disorders and conditions shouldn't be encouraged and made into a fashion or a trend. Again, Occam's Razor points to the obvious. It's science. People are supposed to normally identify with the given sex they were born with. It's not difficult to realize this. Now how do we address this as a society? That is difficult. This is why in the past these folks were closeted and shunned. Disorders and conditions should be treated where possible and the people should be free to go about their business as long as it doesn't start interfering with social systems and checks. For example the recent stories about Transgendered girls wrestling other girls is just ridiculous! Men wanting to use the ladies restrooms is just ridiculous! Society should set up norms on what the majority of people want-socially and psychologically. That society is what's relevant.I think you hit the heart of the problem right there. Too many people out today want to use dumb labels like "BIGOT" to scare everyone off. The joke is, these people have no idea what the word bigot even means. It's such a buzz word right now that the people who are crying the word are actually being bigots themselves. XDDD TG is not an easy topic to discuss, and there's an elephant in the room that modern Liberalism wants to completely ignore. You can say your gender is a man, but it doesn't mean you're physically a man, and vice verse.
Strong posts from ExMachina and Vyazma. I think over last 20-30 yrs a shift has taken place in liberalism to where it’s now primarily being a crazy cheerleader for any marginalized people. No critical thinking required unless it immediately supports whatever the dogma about the marginalized is. This attracts more than it’s fair share of mentally ill people (and regular misfits) because they can easily relate to a group like that much better than they can to mainstream society - which they see as completely hostile.
You see this a lot with young progressives.
Nearly all transgendered people fit into this group which is what makes them impossible to effectively communicate with. That is why I say don’t associate with them if you don’t have to.
Practice some critical thinking Beltane. Construct an argument explaining why it is acceptable to discriminate against transgender people.
Practice some critical thinking Beltane. Construct an argument explaining why it is acceptable to discriminate against transgender people.Well I can say you've certainly perfected the art of Ad hominem.
Practice some critical thinking Beltane. Construct an argument explaining why it is acceptable to discriminate against transgender people.Who said anything about discrimination. I'm talking about non-association. Two different things.
Asking for a coherent argument is not an ad hominem attack.
So if I mix in some buzz words like insinuating that you’re a bigot because I disagree with you, start talking about Indians, parking lots, and Super Bowl, only then are we having a coherent argument?
The parking lots and Super Bowls comments was a literary reference. Pretty obscure, I admit, but if you think about it Europeans committed deliberate genocide because they believed themselves superior to the native peoples who occupied the Americas. This bigotry survives into the 21st Century. I brought up the Native Americans because many tribes recognized five to six sexes, and those who lived no traditional sexual roles were not only accepted but revered.
I cannot think of any ethical theory that justifies telling transgender people how they can live or holding them in even the mildest contempt. If you or Beltane can offer an ethical argument for denying transgender people the same rights afforded the rest of society I would be interested in discussing this subject. Writing off transgender people as best avoided and mentally ill isn’t a coherent argument.