The problem with Gender Identity

First of all, just to set the record straight, I don’t care what your gender is, to speak in religious terms, you’re still one of god’s children and valuable as a person. I’m not talking about that here. I think the problem Cons have, and I have to kind of agree I think, is that gender identity appears to be a choice one can make vs some distinctive thing that all can see and agree on (body parts obviously). Here’s the definition of it - a person’s internal sense of being male, female, both, or none. (paraphrasing a dictionary site).

Just on the face of it, that it’s internal is problematic right off the bat. But beyond that, what does it mean to say male or female OTHER than the biological meaning? Aren’t those tied to one’s culture, which is very fluid? For example, maybe in the US being female means enjoying wearing a dress, or maybe a desire to give birth to kids. (just spitballing here to get the idea across). But wearing a dress and wanting to give birth could easily be things associated with men in a society, if that’s how things progressed in that culture (Scotland for example, with their kilts, which are really skirts).

So it seems totally subjective, unless we want to say there are characteristics of being male/female that do not in any way depend on one’s culture (again, not biological ways, but psychological I guess). And then if we allow that, then that’s saying there ARE differences between men and women and therefore there are cases where they should NOT be treated equally.

It’s a tough one. Thoughts?

So you’re saying that the Con’s have a problem with people having a choice.

I agree with that.

Nope, I’m saying “gender identity” appears to be a choice that’s very problematic. For example, how do you know that boy who’s in the girls bathroom is truly a transgender girl (I hope I have that right) or just a boy who’s getting his jollies checking out girls in the bathroom by saying he identifies as a female? If it was your daughter in the school bathroom say, would you be so open-minded to be okay with that boy being in there too?

I know how Cons would reply, but I’m not sure I disagree with them.

That “boy” would have to show more traits than just a wink and a nod to carry that “identity”.

( So why doesn’t this “one may do bad” argument work for guns? :wink: )

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Now, I do agree that transgenders not be allowed in some of the highest levels of certain sports. There are apparent advantages in some cases.
But they shouldn’t be banned altogether.

And I highly doubt anyone would purposely go through the rigor to qualify for a sex change just so they can win a medal.

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Techie point": If the person was authentically transgender, but had “male” on their birth certificate, then you would call them a “transgender femaie” until the therapies and surgeries were complete, then just “female”. You wouldn’t say, “boy becoming a girl” or similar.

And, how do you know? Uh, can you complete a hormone test? Can you read their DNA? Because if you can’t, you can’t tell what anyone is, and you can’t do either of those just by looking. And, if you are looking at their genitals, you should have a darn good reason. People live their lives out not knowing the results of those tests because their feelings match their birth certificate. Anyone could have an “M” result for 2 of them and an “F” for the other.

The hang up people have, is that someone can say they feel a certain way. There are people in the world who can talk about your feelings and help sort them out. Also, none of my damn business. Until we improve all of this testing, we are stuck dealing with issues that have caused people to be cut out of society, smart people who could have contributed more, some of them killed themselves, some were killed. Good reasons for us “normal” people to get over it.

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Baloney, accept responsibility for yourself.
You start a thread “The Problem with Gender Identity” you apparently care very much.

One of the most impressive lessons l’ve learned about people - is that the dude constantly harping or bashing on gays, or transgenders, is a dude that hasn’t been able to face his own subconscious tendencies, and is acting out, because they hate themselves.

I’m not implying anything.
But it’s patterns that been fairly predictable.

What does that mean??? We create our own religions and Gods, so seems irrelevant to the actual question.

What do I know about it? Nothing, except people are people, we’re all weird in our own way, and we all got an excuse for it.

The difference between uninformed assumptions, and actually learning about the complexities you might have never thought about, is the difference between civility and trumpsterism. :wink:

Mismatch between biological sex and gender identity, culminating in its severest form as gender dysphoria, has been ascribed to mental disease, family dysfunction and childhood trauma.

But accumulating evidence now implies biological factors in establishing gender identity, and a role for particular genes.

Variants – subtly different versions – of genes linked with gender identity might simply be part of a spectrum of gender and sexuality maintained throughout human history. …

According to the late Bishop John Shelby Spong, the first author of Christianity was gay:

“Nothing else,” wrote Spong, “could account for Paul’s self-judging rhetoric, his negative feeling toward his own body, and his sense of being controlled by something he had no power to change.”

There’s no scholarly agreement on this, but I read the book, and it’s not bad. So, the whole idea of being uncomfortable with our “flesh”, comes from a messed up guy in Judea.

Just think if he would have had more of a Greek influence! :smirk:

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Yeah, the fact that it’s subjective is the whole problem.

A bigger problem is attempting to force the rest of society to accommodate this very small minority of disordered people.

I knew this would be a hot one :slight_smile: I’m actually completely comfortable with gay people, trans, hey live your life how you want, we’re all god’s children. (And btw, talk about missing the forest for the trees, that’s just a phrase, shouldn’t prompt a lecture or discussion on religion.)

The problem is when it goes beyond “live your life”. In the bathroom example, obviously no one is going to ask hey are you currently undergoing gender therapy? No, all we have to go by is how a person looks unless you know of a way to read people’s minds. And THAT’s the problem.

SO here’s the question: How can we tell the difference between the boy who’s getting his jollies off, and the true trans person boy who truly feels he’s the female gender? And I’m talking specifics…you’re at a school function let’s say, your daughter is in the bathroom, and a boy walks in after her. How do you tell? Be specific in your answer, vs preachy.

I get the feeling you haven’t had that many discussions with a teenage boy. Most of them are pretty easy, you just ask them what the heck they’re doing and say something like, “nuthin’”, and you tell them you know what they’re doing and to never do it again. It’s not always that easy, but even the least experienced school counselor can handle it.

So, you’re asking about the very few who can lie their way through this, or those who are legitimate, but you don’t know it because you don’t know them. The situation you describe, someone who looks like an average boy walking into a girl’s room, is not a real scenario. Either they are being a jerk, or someone who has the skills has talked to them and they aren’t doing anything wrong. In that case, the kid will probably have makeup, or girl’s clothes, or other gender neutral indicators, and a history, people who know them.

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How do you know it’s a boy? Maybe it’s a sis-female transitioning to male, but following the “Assigned at Birth” rules?

Is there really a national epidemic of little boys peeking at little girls? Or is it just some hollow “concern” driven by the Cons to push their closed minded opinions.

Transgenders should dress in the way they identify. If a transgender boy dresses like a boy he goes to the boy’s bathroom. If she dresses like a girl she goes to the girl’s bathroom. No one needs to know unless you expose yourself and that is even taboo for the same gender.

I am not sure that there is a difference between a girl and a boy wearing jean s an d T-shirts ?

In fact, I am much hesitating .

And in many sport installations, collective changing rooms and showers mean nudity.

Other matter in sports: not in all sports, but in some, a transgender raised as a male until his 25thhas a real advantage.

In these sports, genetic best women are around the 100-150 ranks if compared to men.

And that’s a fact.

And i say in some sports, not in every one of them.

I don’t know what fact you are using here. We still don’t combine genders in sports for obvious reasons. Not sure what point you’re making

CuthbertJ I think it has been years since we have communicated. I read your comments on The problem with Gender Identity

I think that what you are saying is the position of a majority of the population at least here in America.

Do you think there is any validity to hormone levels inherent to all humans as having an effect on gender mentality? this information requires different testing than the test of observation at birth. What do you think?

I think there’s a national epidemic of conservatives trying to discriminate against non-white non-heterosexuals. And discriminating against trans people is currently one of their big pushes. My point is that they seem to think that being non-hetero is a choice. We know from science that being gay is not a choice. But it seems like being trans IS a choice, and an internal one at that, and so that’s what gives them the leverage so to speak to pursue these anti-trans laws.
I’m saying, as much as it pains me to agree with them, it does seem problematic. Just trying to see the other sides point of view and question my own. That’s what libs do right?

The “problem” is not with the transgender person. The problem is societies reaction and treatment of transgender people. They should be able to be who they are without fear of violence or discrimination.

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I think you may be right. I would like to add there must be a statistical distribution that would show humans sorted by the epithets you mention in your post. I think we would see that humans of all combinations of hormones have existed almost as long as any group.