Gender

General Discussion
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Children should be able to learn without worrying about whether they will be denied access to the restroom, the locker room, or school sports.
The above is from Executive Order 13988.

It seems that Joe Biden is no longer able to determine what the terms male, female, boy, girl, woman and man mean and how that meaning is determined. Indeed the meaning of the terms sex and gender, when applied to humans, seem to escape him.

Science (Biden says he will listen to science) tells us that mammalian cells of females have a pair of X chromosomes while cells of males have an X and a Y. We notice that science includes no part for choice or feelings of identity in determining what is male and what is female. Science also tells us that the pairing of chromosomes determines, in general, things like size, strength and capacity of activities and that to have fair competition we should separate players by those pairings.

So, listening to science, and considering that so many terms relating to the effects of parings of chromosomes have lost meaning in our society, we should conclude that restrooms, locker rooms and sports should not be identified as boys’ or girl’s nor as men’s or women’s but rather as XX and XY. A simple one-time test will inform each of us which we are and there will be no confusion as to whether we play XX sports or XY sports and which restroom to use. For those who can’t or don’t want to remember, we could include XX-XY restrooms.

That will make the signs easier too. We won’t be burdened with conventions of clothing determining who goes where.

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1 not everyone fits the XX XY. Very few, but you left them out

2 if there are no feelings that go with male/ female, then why the separation? I don’t see chromosomes, so why should I care who is in the next stall? What science is behind me being kept from seeing someone adjust their clothing, or seeing underclothes around ankles on the other side of a barrier?

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For the record:

Executive Order 13988 of January 20, 2021

Preventing and Combating Discrimination on the Basis of Gender Identity or Sexual Orientation
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Policy. Every person should be treated with respect and dignity and should be able to live without fear, no matter who they are or whom they love. Children should be able to learn without worrying about whether they will be denied access to the restroom, the locker room, or school sports. Adults should be able to earn a living and pursue a vocation knowing that they will not be fired, demoted, or mistreated because of whom they go home to or because how they dress does not conform to sex-based stereotypes. People should be able to access healthcare and secure a roof over their heads without being subjected to sex discrimination. All persons should receive equal treatment under the law, no matter their gender identity or sexual orientation.

These principles are reflected in the Constitution, which promises equal protection of the laws. These principles are also enshrined in our Nation’s anti-discrimination laws, among them Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended (42 U.S.C. 2000e et seq.). In Bostock v. Clayton County, 590 U.S._(2020), the Supreme Court held that Title VII’s prohibition on discrimination “because of . . . sex” covers discrimination on the basis of gender identity and sexual orientation. Under Bostock’s reasoning, laws that prohibit sex discrimination—including Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, as amended (20 U.S.C. 1681 et seq.), the Fair Housing Act, as amended (42 U.S.C. 3601 et seq.), and section 412 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, as amended (8 U.S.C. 1522), along with their respective implementing regulations—prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation, so long as the laws do not contain sufficient indications to the contrary.

Discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation manifests differently for different individuals, and it often overlaps with other forms of prohibited discrimination, including discrimination on the basis of race or disability. For example, transgender Black Americans face unconscionably high levels of workplace discrimination, homelessness, and violence, including fatal violence.

It is the policy of my Administration to prevent and combat discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation, and to fully enforce Title VII and other laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation. It is also the policy of my Administration to address overlapping forms of discrimination.

Sec. 2. Enforcing Prohibitions on Sex Discrimination on the Basis of Gender Identity or Sexual Orientation. (a) The head of each agency shall, as soon as practicable and in consultation with the Attorney General, as appropriate, review all existing orders, regulations, guidance documents, policies, programs, or other agency actions (“agency actions”) that:

(i) were promulgated or are administered by the agency under Title VII or any other statute or regulation that prohibits sex discrimination, including any that relate to the agency’s own compliance with such statutes or regulations; andStart Printed Page 7024

(ii) are or may be inconsistent with the policy set forth in section 1 of this order.

(b) The head of each agency shall, as soon as practicable and as appropriate and consistent with applicable law, including the Administrative Procedure Act (5 U.S.C. 551 et seq.), consider whether to revise, suspend, or rescind such agency actions, or promulgate new agency actions, as necessary to fully implement statutes that prohibit sex discrimination and the policy set forth in section 1 of this order.

(c) The head of each agency shall, as soon as practicable, also consider whether there are additional actions that the agency should take to ensure that it is fully implementing the policy set forth in section 1 of this order. If an agency takes an action described in this subsection or subsection (b) of this section, it shall seek to ensure that it is accounting for, and taking appropriate steps to combat, overlapping forms of discrimination, such as discrimination on the basis of race or disability.

(d) Within 100 days of the date of this order, the head of each agency shall develop, in consultation with the Attorney General, as appropriate, a plan to carry out actions that the agency has identified pursuant to subsections (b) and (c) of this section, as appropriate and consistent with applicable law.

Sec. 3. Definition. “Agency” means any authority of the United States that is an “agency” under 44 U.S.C. 3502(1), other than those considered to be independent regulatory agencies, as defined in 44 U.S.C. 3502(5).

Sec. 4. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or

(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

Start Printed Page 7025(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

 

THE WHITE HOUSE, January 20, 2021. Filed 1-22-21; 11:15 am][FR Doc. 2021-01761

Billing code 3295-F1-P

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It’s interesting how the first line flew right past him. Guess it’s an indication of priorities.

Every person should be treated with respect and dignity and should be able to live without fear, no matter who they are or whom they love.
Although I guess supremacists find such thoughts unutterable. Respect, showing dignity towards others, and all that jazz.
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I don’t understand how a person with XX chromosomes could feel like a they are a male or a XY believe they are really a girl. I was born XX. I am female. I don’t know what it means to feel different from what one is born or what their chromosomes say they are. I’ve always loved pink, just like my grandmother. My son says real men wear pink. I really don’t care if a guy wants to wear pink and long hair. I really don’t care if a guy wants to wear a kilt or even a dress. People like what they like and if they want to use women’s or men’s bathroom, that’s fine as long as they don’t bother anyone else while in there. Do your business and get out. What I also don’t get is the pronoun thing- They and Their for a single individual. It makes them seem like more than one person to me.

That said, while none of it makes no sense to me, I really don’t care. A human is a human and I try to treat everyone as a human being. As long as they aren’t harming anyone, what they do is their business. IMHO, I don’t feel as though I have to understand it, as long as I treat everyone as a human being, regardless of race, creed, colour, gender, hair texture, eyes colour…

Here’s a thought… Cats, dogs, mice, etc don’g fight over fur colour, eye colour… Their fights are more over territory and mating, for the most part. I often wonder why humans can’t be more like other animals, instead of some of the unimportant or society conforming rules.

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Our understanding of the physiological and psychological foundations of the gender and sexuality spectrum are evolving exactly because of science, combined with an LGBTQ rights movement that has been largely silenced until recently, in my observation.

Either the OP author is simply unaware of these things or is, perhaps, aware but represents the current, frighteningly retrograde social and political climate, IMO.

Either way, the progress of understanding rolls on nonetheless.

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Well, I’m not so sure science has confirmed anything about gender yet, because in the DSM-V and many psychologists use the term, it’s still “gender dysmorphia” and yet, once it is confirmed that the individual truly does not match their external gender, the person is allowed to go through gender reassignment surgery. Gender reassignment? I’m sorry. I have issues with “assigned gender” at birth. I was not assigned gender. I am what I am. What you see is what you get. I am female, born, always have been, and always will be. I can’t stand it when people insist everyone was “assigned” gender at birth, as though the doctor went through with a clipboard and said, “you’re going to be a girl” and “you’re going to be a boy”. (I got that from my husband, who doesn’t get it either.) There has to be a better way of phrasing that, because I was not “assigned” a gender. I don’t know about anyone else, but I wasn’t. I don’t know what it means to “feel like a girl”, because I am a girl and always have been. Now, I can understand being discontinued with one’s body, because before menopause, I was thin, still thought I was overweight at 4’ 11" and 95 most of my adult life, but I now, menopause and a bad thyroid, I put on 20 lbs and feel even worse about my weight. That is another type of dysmorphia, so I can comprehend that, but to fix weighing what one weighs can sometimes lead to eating disorders. So what is healthy dysmorphia and what is not? That is the question and probably why one goes through psychological tests and other things before they have gender reassignment surgery.

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I can’t stand it when people insist everyone was “assigned” gender at birth, as though the doctor went through with a clipboard and said, “you’re going to be a girl” and “you’re going to be a boy”. (I got that from my husband, who doesn’t get it either.) There has to be a better way of phrasing that, because I was not “assigned” a gender. I don’t know about anyone else, but I wasn’t.
Hermaphrodites. Intersex.

And the crude, old saying “Easier to dig a hole than to build a pole”

So yes, you are assigned a sex at birth. 99.99% of the time the “assignment” matches the apparent physiology. But sometimes a not-so-apparent choice has to be made, or sometimes those differences aren’t visible.

Should acceptance and inclusion be any different than children born with a cleft palate or missing/deformed limbs?

  • And I’m not arguing or trying to pick a fight - I see where you said “We are all human”

 

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I had a second cousin who had a cleft palate, but IMHO, that isn’t the same thing as individuals who feel (as I said, I’m not sure what that means) the opposite gender they were born or not even a gender at all. I’m not attempting a fight either and I really don’t care about how people dress, what hairstyle they choose, make-up they wear or whatever, because we’re still human. I just don’t understand it and I have often thought that it’s probably because I was born as I and am what I am. I’m an XX with the physiology and physic to go with it. I don’t think transgenderism is something I was meant to understand, but to just accept them as fellow human beings trying to live life as best they can, just as we all are.

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Great thoughts Mriana. I like that you can have all those feelings and also have a live and let live point of view.

I don’t feel a need to empathize, or experience, or even know what it feels like. Enough people report these feelings and have confirmed they are valid, so I accept they are real.

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@lausten

Great thoughts Mriana. I like that you can have all those feelings and also have a live and let live point of view.

Thanks. I look at people and see another human being, despite any differences I might also see with that. I might ask questions to try to understand, but in the end, anyone who’s nice to me I’m nice to them, living and let living. I don’t believe in harming people for any reason, so I have to live in such a manner. Besides, I hate it when some people try to tell me that vegetarianism isn’t natural (it is, but they can’t see it) and come up with stupid stuff to attempt to prove their point (only to fail). Not that vegetarianism and transgenderism are similar, but the stupidity runs nip and tuck.

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Children should be able to learn without worrying about whether they will be denied access to the restroom, the locker room, or school sports.
Talk about a red herring.

I’ve mentioned it on this forum before but it’s crazy how much attention is given to the extremely small population of transpeople.

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Sorry once more, being a Frenchman, the way words are used in USA and the way they refer to concepts with a cultural meaning baffles me some times.

For me, globally, speaking about at least 95 % of people, and I may be wrong :

  • We are born with a genetic sex, male or female
  • We have a sexual orientation, heterosexual or homosexual,
  • We have a psychological sex, the genetic sex coinciding for most people, but some people feeling they belong to the other sex. It is not a disease, it cannot be cured, it is a fact.
Gender is a sociological concept, it is the whole of the behaviors, the feelings, the ways a person is seen in a given society, the place this society gives her, according to her genetic sex.

To give a trivial exemple, in our western civilisation, males are not supposed to wear skirts, except Scotts, and even if it is changing nowadays. But in Asia, millions of males wear a sarong, which is a skirt rolled and knotted around the waist.

 

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1 not everyone fits the XX XY. Very few, but you left them out
Can you provide a web site where we can see that science has discovered people with something other than x and y chromosomes?

The idea behind xx and xy and xx-xy restrooms is that the xx-xy would be for those who, for whatever reason, don’t want to use either the xx or xy that their chromosomes would indicate.

2 if there are no feelings that go with male/ female, then why the separation? I don’t see chromosomes, so why should I care who is in the next stall? What science is behind me being kept from seeing someone adjust their clothing, or seeing underclothes around ankles on the other side of a barrier?
Of course there are "feelings" that go with xx / xy chromosomes. No, you don't see chromosomes, but you do see the result of the growth process dependent on them - at least in the vast majority of people. One result of the feelings is procreation.

You, an adult male, may not care who shares the restroom with you, but I doubt you can deny that there are many who do care. Children, at or close to puberty, do not behave as adults. Ask the parents of a “tween” girl if they are comfortable with their child sharing a restroom with the football team. Better yet ask the girl if she would be comfortable changing her tampon or pad in that environment.

 

I think it is very telling that all here focus on the restroom issue and not on the sports problem. I don’t care much about girls’ or women’s sports but many do, especially those who participate in them. All those involved in women’s sports who I have heard speak on the issue say allowing males to compete against females will kill women’s and girls’ sports.

1 Like
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Guess I didn’t understand what you meant here then,

We notice that science includes no part for choice or feelings of identity in determining what is male and what is female. -- Bob
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it’s crazy how much attention is given to the extremely small population of transpeople. -- oneguy
It was probably the ones who were getting beat up, killed, not allowed to have a job or get a promotion that turned it into being a big deal. If they were treated like everyone else in the first place, then there would be no additional "attention" required.
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Bob, I really hate googling simple things for people, so you should feel special. Try Turner syndrome and XYY syndrome. There are so many more variations on gender science, but I’m giving you these two just to show there is science on this. It’s not the simple binary thing you were handed in 2nd grade

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Bob, I really hate googling simple things for people, so you should feel special. Try Turner syndrome and XYY syndrome. There are so many more variations on gender science, but I’m giving you these two just to show there is science on this. It’s not the simple binary thing you were handed in 1st grade

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I think it is very telling that all here focus on the restroom issue and not on the sports problem. -- Bob
It is a very fringe idea to let sexes freely mix in sports, so, of course we aren't focusing on that. It's not being proposed in any serious way.

I’m so tired of responding to things that are not real problems. Trump did this as a strategy and it has set the country back a decade. I’m looking forward to a world where we once again use reason to explore new ideas, challenge our old ways of thinking, and listen to something that is foreign to our ears.

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If they were treated like everyone else in the first place, then there would be no additional “attention” required.
But they don't want to be treated like everyone else because they are not like everyone else. They want everyone else to be treated in some way that will disguise their difference. They seem to think it is fine to inconvenience the vast majority to make the vastly smaller minority feel better. The addition of a uni-sex restroom along with the conventional male and female restrooms is not appealing to them because everyone is not required to use it. They want to force the rest of us to abandon our conventions and just get over being uncomfortable. This is just more politically correct BS.

My opinion is that the comfort of the many outweighs the comfort of the few. Similar to majority rule isn’t it; good for most but not so good for the rest. If the liberal bleeding heart pinko commies want to help the different, then use the uni-sex restroom and let the rest of us use our gender specific facilities. Go ahead, think that it is we who are strange; we don’t care if you do.