My child My choice

Just saw the above sentiment on a sign in a Huff Post UK article.

The parental choice in question was the teaching of children about the realities of sexual identification, and looking at relationships other than heterosexual.

The phrase "my child my choice’ struck a nerve with me; it seems to me the parent is behaving as if their child is a possession. (?)

I have no children, so will not even try to become a childless expert.I learned decades ago just how much parents hate that.

I’m really interested in opinions from parents, such as Lois. What do you think is appropriate to teach children in sex education classes, and from what age?

Me? I went to a Catholic boys school. There was no such animal. In grade seven we had a bumbling, incoherent 20 minute talk from a mortified brother. My mother gave me a small pamphlet when I was 12. It dealt mainly with plumbing.

Learned the most at 16, from a book called “The Psychology Of Sex” by Havelock Ellis (1859-1939) .Most striking things I learned were that masturbation is normal and physically impossible to do too much. Plus that homosexuality is a perversion, and how to cure it. (really) He also touched on what he called ‘Eonism’ . Today it’s called trans gender.

My overall attitude came from Carl Jung , I think. His claim is that labels of sexual preference are nonsense. That human beings are simply sexual, with most having a dominant preference. I’ve long thought that would explain the depth of homophobia found in many societies.; young males are confused and embarrassed at even occasional attraction to other males. I don’t remember what Jung wrote on gender identity. I’ve read from other sources over the years that gender identity is hard wired.

My dominant attitude to trans gender people is compassion.

Sex Education in public school was taught in 5 and 6 grades (about 10-12 years old) when I was growing up back in the 1990s. Don’t know if it’s still that way. I think that is an appropriate age, but sex-ed before then is too complicated for a child to understand IMO. Parents are absolutely right to question that.

My oldest kid will start school this year so I guess I will find out how they do it nowadays.

I think sexual education should cover the anatomy and purpose of sex, however any kind of attempt at normalization of homosexuality, transgenderism, etc. is wrong and will call for some improvising on my part. I’d let my kids hear that material but tell them the teacher is wrong as a lesson that you can’t really trust teachers or schools.

“any kind of attempt at normalization of homosexuality, transgenderism, etc. is wrong and will call for some improvising on my part.”

What would you do if your child was ‘different’?

My general position is; not churches, the community nor the law get to determine my values, about anything. Anyone criticises you for doing what you think is best for your kids, tell the crunts to go frack themselves.

I also believe that a citizen has the right and the obligation to disobey and try to change bad laws. I think that’s how it’s supposed to work in a democracy, although often easier said than done.

 

 

Pat, I’ll toss in my two cents worth. Our kids learned physiology and the mechanics of sex through school.

Fortunately, none of them had conflicts with their sexuality - though from my younger days in restaurants I got to know many of them tortured souls. I think it’s why I found a number of really quality humans among the gay crowd - the ones that survived the fire, were very balanced solid individuals indeed.

Although in our extended family we had an uncle (and aunt) who was openly gay and another who came out - so they were exposed to and aware that gay people exist and that it’s okay.

But back to sex education - at puberty I had a couple talks with my daughter about guys. Many of us are nice, but still fundamentally young guys were pigs (raging hormones and all) and older guys were even scarier. She needed to take care of herself because they were going to try to get away with anything they could. Then a simple set of rules. (with My older step-daughter was a similar story.)

Don't accept presents or gifts from anyone, they will think that gives them a license to tell you what to do.

Don’t enter any place or party without thinking about, and knowing, how to get out there in a hurry.

Don’t ever, ever let anyone do anything to you that you don’t want them to!

You are your own boss. If you say NO that means NO!!! and if he tries talking you out of it, or making you feel guilty - he’s bad news and get away.

Always know you can talk to me and I will be on your side.


She’s a wonderful woman in her late twenties now, in her second long term and second healthy relationship. Still good pals with the ex-high school sweet heart, who will join her wedding party in a few months.

Although I think another key is that, she was a child of love, and though her parents had difficulties she always knew she was loved and wanted. Most gay folks, of course not all, that I’ve know, have had very rejecting lonely childhoods. Looking for love in all the wrong places.

Here’s another question:

How many parents out there get torked at the thought of their daughters becoming sexually active.
It seems a very common thing - that I don't get.

But then, I don’t get that fear and loathing of death either.

“How many parents out there get torked at the thought of their daughters becoming sexually active.”

Yeah, very common with my parent’s generation. Children tended to be seen as having a responsibility to share their parent’s beliefs and values. That was a time when a premium was placed on chastity, and no sex before marriage, especially with girls. Less so with boys because they couldn’t come home pregnant. Yep pretty hypocritical.

That rigid attitude still seems common amongst what I call “big ‘C’ Christians” .These people are often found in happy clappy churches. Their religious beliefs and their morality tend to be simple and dogmatic. It is practiced with a lot of noise and aggression, which is extended to their unfortunate children…

I still remember part of a sermon at our Catholic church, when I was about 14-15. The priest said from the pulpit “no one wants an unchaste child”. I remember thinking “what a bloody cheek!” The adults around me just nodded in agreement.

I also have a suspicion that there is some unhealthy psychology going on at times. Of course, I may be wrong.

 

Fear 0f death? I like to think I’m not afraid of being dead as it’s no tan experience. However, I do not have the same attitude about experience of dying. That scares the bejasus out of me. I have noticed that some very old people I’ve known, including my late mother, seem to lose their fear of dying. Dad did not lose that fear, even though he was demented the last few years of his life. Dad died at 87, mum at 92. For them I suspect their attitudes may have been due at least in part to their religious beliefs; mum was a deeply devout Catholic, dad not as much.

I think the fear of dying may be hard wired in all mammals at least. If it were not our species may not have survived to this point.

What would you do if your child was ‘different’?
I don't think kids at that age can be that different.
How many parents out there get torked at the thought of their daughters becoming sexually active.
It seems to be fathers more than mothers, which is totally understandable. Any man with a daughter knows how much trouble she can get in hooking up with the wrong guy and a father has an instinct to protect.

A man who takes a “whatever” attitude to his daughter’s possible sexual activity should be prepared for nonstop drama.

Mothers on the other hand, don’t like the idea of their sons having sex but they just get upset instead of trying to prevent it. Moms will also secretly despise their son’s girlfriends/wives no matter how good she might be for him, whereas a father will eventually respect a good man that his daughter brings home.

“I don’t think kids at that age can be that different.”

I should have been clearer. I meant ‘child’ in the broadest sense.

My mom was so sick of living the fear of death lost it’s edge - if it was just a big sleep*, she was fine with that.

*Which is my preferred and I dare say rational belief.


I don’t think kids at that age can be that different.

Seriously? You don’t think our tendencies are pretty much hard wired fairly early?

What’s the youngest a boy I know can get excited and self-pleasure himself?


"A man who takes a “whatever” attitude to his daughter’s possible sexual activity should be prepared for nonstop drama."
Of course, thus the "Talk" and keeping channels open and being there. Of course, it's a scary as hell ride when you're in the middle of it, but seems to me raise your kids with love and attention, and usually it'll work out - or at least it's the best we can do.

Although don’t think I don’t thank my lucky stars every time I think of it - that my young teen girl of my heart turned out to falling for a kayaker, who turned out to be a real nice competent guy and then she fell in with the kayaking crowd. Still makes me grin from ear to ear with watery eyes.

Guess the point is I trusted her with setting her own parameters - it was no longer my place, I had my chance to do my part.

You know bow and the arrow, and all that groovy stuff.

 

What’s the youngest a boy I know can get excited and self-pleasure himself?

Let me try that again.

What’s the youngest, that you think, a boy can get excited and self-pleasure himself?

I should have been clearer. I meant ‘child’ in the broadest sense.
That would make things much more complicated. I think I would still tell them they aren't normal.
Seriously? You don’t think our tendencies are pretty much hard wired fairly early?
Outside side of heterosexual tendencies, not really. Homosexuality is caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors -- with environment playing a much bigger role, and transgenderism is a mental illness that develops over years and years, so there needs to be quite a bit of time for these "different" sexual traits to appear. Pre-pubescent children can't really express any kind of concrete sexuality anyway because the biological processes we need for that aren't happening yet.

 

What’s the youngest, that you think, a boy can get excited and self-pleasure himself?
I guess depends on how much excitement we're talking about. The full effect can't happen until puberty begins but I know little kids will sometimes mindlessly play with their genitals.

 

It’s not as much children who need to learn that other ppl’s sexual orientation is their own business, as some adults. Children will figure out what the society they live in accepts or doesn’t accept.

Funny that Tim, I suddenly remembered my restaurant days, and the unruly tables with kids - more times than not it was the parents being jerks causing the problems, too much micromanaging kids, injecting unrealistic expectations and tension into every move. Not that kids are angels, but they do tend to be more honest, and approachable, if you’re not reoccupied with judging everything about them.

 

No guy, I was referring to an awareness of sexuality - even if all the juices weren’t flowing yet.

But, it’s a dead end anyways. Guess the real question is whether sexuality is a good and fun and healthy thing, or if it’s a moral burden and a minefield of over-wrought guilt trips.

" Guess the real question is whether sexuality is a good and fun and healthy thing, or if it’s a moral burden and a minefield of over-wrought guilt trips."

A pithy explanation of the power of Christianity over its sheep. Plus the invention of hell to keep control.

Bishop John Spong claims “the church is in the guilt and control business”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkaH3hEmV3M

The degree that the idea parents should have 100% of the decision making ability regarding what their child is exposed to and learns, is good, is directly related to what the parents want their children exposed to.

I’m not a fan of Westboro Baptist Church children being indoctrinated into the sick ideas their parents have. Same as anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, and any other world-view I think is bad.

So, who determines who’s world-views are bad, and how do we get children stuck in bad homes educated out of their parent’s mental shadow?

The degree that the idea parents should have 100% (really?? *) of the decision making ability regarding what their child is exposed to and learns, is good,
Except that doesn't work. What lock then up in home schooling, control who their friends are. At some point they have to meet the big world. If they have no prior exposure, they will be in deep doo doo, me thinks ...
  • Isn’t that’s assuming parent are gifted to get everything right?

Or is it, my parents right or wrong . . .

People don't need to be reborn - they need to grow up!
Now that's a smart Bishop!

In my twenties I still wrestled with everyone else’s opinions and the threat of Hell and promise of Heaven and how to deal with that as a non-believer.

Guess, it’s the years that increase the comfort level. I’m at the point now I can’t even conceive of the notion of Heaven or Hell, it ridiculous and contrary to all we experience in a thoughtful life - and there’s no need for it. Our Cosmic Gift is to have these few years. Do with it what you can. That’s plenty good enough.