Covid Lab Leak

Science and Technology
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Now this one is more mathematical and scientific, as well as done by St George University in London and written by Birger Sørensen, Angus Dalgleish & Andres Susrud called “The Evidence which Suggests that This Is No Naturally Evolved Virus”. The paper is worth the read.

The related article concerning this paper is here_ https://www.minervanett.no/angus-dalgleish-birger-sorensen-coronavirus/the-evidence-which-suggests-that-this-is-no-naturally-evolved-virus/362529?fbclid=IwAR3UbbTKvSylqCeVJyrfuOXmbGsh5nRjDA7GxgQtmqJ1WBG4nZ2MEZ9H9-4

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The paper referenced (Sorensen etc ) is not accepted by the international scientific community.

 

Evidence strongly points to natural origin.

 

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I’ve read that Science Daily report too. At this point, I’m not sure what to believe concerning the origins of the virus, in part because when I first saw it exploding in Wuhan, my very first thought was bio-chemical warfare. That said, if we want to blame getting too close to other animals, maybe that’s not such a bad idea. The world might benefit from not eating meat. A plant based diet certainly is healthier than eating meat. However, that isn’t a thorough investigation of how this virus happened. It would also behoove U.S. citizens not to eat roadkill (legal in some states) because we might end up returning the “favour” to China. Also, I’m not sure we can trust the CDC on repealing the mask mandates either, because there maybe Dotard supporters still in the CDC wanting to let this virus rip. Even my own doctor believes it’s premature to go without masks, even if one is fully vaccinated, which I am, but still wearing a mask when I go to work or to Walmart and other like places. IMHO, this virus occurred when the dotard was in office, as he screwed around with Putin, and didn’t give a damn how many people died from the virus, even stupidly caught it himself as led people to their deaths from COVID-19 like the Pied Piper, even appointing his own cronies, who knew nothing, to positions that would allow this virus to rip through the nation- again, not caring about how many he killed. So can we even trust the CDC anymore?

I do know this- we need to wear masks, social distance, and get vaccinated, as well as update our ventilation systems in all our buildings. I trust Dr. Fauci far more than I do much of the CDC. Keep in mind, the dotard silence Dr Fauci, as he went about his own agenda- putting his cronies in the CDC and letting the virus spread. So yes, maybe it was nature and maybe it was not. We really do need a thorough investigation and I won’t stop saying that. It behooves us to know and not just accept the Chinese government’s rushed “Oh it was from an animal” explanation, which WHO just accepted without even trying to look for themselves because the Chinese government wasn’t forthcoming in allowing them to actually investigate.

Propaganda? Maybe, but we’ll never know, without a thorough investigation and not just a rushed explanation with supposed science thrown in to make it sound official, when it’s never been truly investigated. In the meantime, wear a mask, social distance, and get vaccinated. All three are our best defense to protect ourselves as a society. That and wait for a booster, in the hopes that the vaccines don’t fail us before we get a booster. We’re still waiting on evidence for how long the vaccines lasts, because they haven’t be out in the public’s bodies for very long. We could have a surge due to waning vaccines and no booster, by next January for all we know and still have no hard evidence as to how this virus started.

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stick to the science. Not for me or you to debate ala climate science. Leave it to the scientific community

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Here’s more reading material, especially the article, written just a couple months ago, titled “We still don’t know the origins of the Coronavirus” (and we don’t):

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/heres-what-the-who-report-found-on-the-origins-of-covid-19

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@richo

stick to the science. Not for me or you to debate ala climate science. Leave it to the scientific community

I am and I did. It seems to me you are stuck in one gear with a very closed mind- only accepting what you want. The science does say to wear a mask, social distance, and get vaccinated. The facts also say what I said above, but deny what happened during the Dotard’s reign.

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ok but stop giving conspiracy theories oxygen

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I’m not sure if they are conspiracy theories, because we don’t know the origins of COVID-19, as that Nat Geo link in my post at the bottom of page 3 said. The lab theory could be correct or animal origin could be correct. We do not know.

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We do know. Evidence based science say its pointing to naturally occuring. Stop peddling conspiracy theories please

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A good synthesis:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111

The matter is that the Chinese government has hidden everything and has denied access to any one to the data of the involved laboratory.

The Wuhan laboratory was built with French cooperation, and there was an agreement between both countries for cooperation. But China did not respect the agreement.

In January 2018, US embassy alerted US government about the lack of safety mesures in the laboratory.

What you must understand is that China has become a totalitarian state.

And rightly or wrongly Chinese have a reputation for respecting contracts only as long as they must or are interested to.

And last, if it is proven that the virus lacked from a Chinese laboratory the financial, political cost will be tremendous. And beyond that the loss of " face " would be such that Chiba will be ashamed, looking itself as having lost honor.

Sorry, i did not find a so precise link in English.

https://www.franceculture.fr/sciences/le-laboratoire-p4-de-wuhan-une-histoire-francaise

If you ask me, i will Google translate it, but is is a 4 pages paper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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“The matter is that the Chinese government has hidden everything and has denied access to any one to the data of the involved laboratory.”

 

The ad hominem fallacy

 

"In January 2018, US embassy alerted US government about the lack of safety mesures in the laboratory.

What you must understand is that China has become a totalitarian state"

Affirming the consequence fallacy.

 

"The Wuhan laboratory was built with French cooperation, and there was an agreement between both countries for cooperation. But China did not respect

the agreement."

 

The post hoc fallacy

“And last, if it is proven that the virus lacked from a Chinese laboratory the financial, political cost will be tremendous. And beyond that the loss of ” face ” would be such that Chiba will be ashamed, looking itself as having lost honor.”

The false dilemma fallacy

 

“And rightly or wrongly Chinese have a reputation for respecting contracts only as long as they must or are interested to.”

The strawman fallacy

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@richo

We do know. Evidence based science say its pointing to naturally occuring. Stop peddling conspiracy theories please

For the last time you stop. It’s not conspiracy until the situation has been fully investigated and we don’t know anything until it is really investigated. The title of this thread is “COVID Lab Leak”. That means the author wants to discuss the subject and to tell people to “stop. I’m right and I have evidence that I’m right, now shut up” (actual translation of what you are saying) is not discussing the topic. It is an attempt to shut down a discussion, without considering any of the information which started the discussion, along with information that comes from scientific sites. Now this is your first warning. This is CFI and we discuss various subjects, not shut them down because you don’t consider them scientific or sticking to the science we THINK we know. Science is always changing as new info comes in and IF we do not consider the new information, then we aren’t being scientific, we are being anti-science and we can’t update without continued inquiry, and updating what we know without investigating. The articles on Science Daily, Nat Geo (which you never considered), NEJM, SCIAM, etc etc are scientific and even some of those sites and articles, like Nat Geo, consider the possibility of a lab leak. I didn’t start the topic, but I, a moderator, will not end it because you do not think it stick to the science we THINK we know, and I will at least consider and discuss it, along with other sites that consider it, which as I said, include some sites, like Nat Geo, considered scientific resources. CFI discusses pseudoscience, paranormal, and other topics that aren’t scientific, sometimes pointing to sources that may or may not be scientific, in an effort to discuss a topic, including scientifically unproven subjects. Now stop shutting down discussion threads when you are not the moderator and show some respect for others, including the topics’ authors wish to discuss, even if you do not agree with the topic of discussion. It is the moderators, not you, who decide what is discussed or not discussed, including possible conspiracy theories, especially when we don’t really know, as Nat Geo stated. What you’re doing is shutting down the world’s attempt to investigate and get as much information as possible so that we actually know how the virus occurred and not just take the Chinese government’s word for it. We do not know until we inquire further and update information when and if we find new information, which we cannot do without an investigation, which also questions the possibility of a lab leak.

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@morgankane01

The matter is that the Chinese government has hidden everything and has denied access to any one to the data of the involved laboratory.

Exactly what I’ve been trying to say. The Chinese government didn’t even tell us the truth about COVID-19 from the start. What they told us was “keep your hands clean and don’t touch your face” and the WHO took their word for it, without question. The Chinese government even killed people who attempted to tell the truth about it and to this day, we don’t know the whole truth. WHO should have questioned it, because it caused many deaths, especially of the elderly, until we realized we need to wear masks, social distance, have lockdowns, as well as wash our hands AND find a vaccine too. They especially should have questioned it when we realized China didn’t give the world all the info and even began silencing, even killing some who attempted to get the truth out to people. To this day, WHO is just taking the Chinese government’s word for it, without investigation. We need to investigate what the Chinese government says and find out what they are hiding from the world and we know they are hiding something, because they’ve never been straight forward with the world about this virus. The Chinese government has never been straight forward about this virus and it is possible it did come from a lab and the Chinese government is attempting to shutdown any inquiry concerning their labs. OR it could have came from a U.S. lab and the Chinese scientists took something back to their lab and it got out. Either way, it’s worth the world investigating, because we’ll never know for sure until we do.

In January 2018, US embassy alerted US government about the lack of safety mesures in the laboratory.

What you must understand is that China has become a totalitarian state.

And that is exactly why we need to discuss and investigate the possibility of a lab leak, instead of just taking the Chinese government’s word for it.

@richo You are beginning to sound like someone who supports the Chinese government, not allowing any discussion of anything except what they said. I’ve already warned you, before reading your last post, so I won’t warn you again, unless you continue attempting to shutdown the topic someone started, but this is just another example of attempting to shutdown a threat without at least discussing it.

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Banned for asking to follow the science. Priceless. Where is this going Mriana? Whats next?

if COVID was a bioweapon, whose bioweapon was it? Fauci’s? The Chinese? They were working together so the story goes. Do they work together making ICBMs too? Or do we have to concoct an ever more elaborate story now to explain this, like with Novichok?

Is this where you want to go?

Give me a break.

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@richo I have not banned you… yet. I only gave you a warning. Three warnings and one is banned, especially if they chose to argue with a warning. So don’t even start down such a road without reading the rules and do read the rules, because attempting to argue with moderators, about a warning, is a violation of the rules. Now if you have an issue, there is a section on the forum to state your issue, but in a discussion thread is not the place to state any issues or grievances you may have. We mods, @lausten and myself, will discuss the issues and grievances with you in that section, but not in the middle of a discussion thread. Where the discussion goes is not up to you alone. This is why we have moderators, as well as a who community on the forum, who wish to discuss a topic. Maybe you should do some research on CFI before you decide what can and cannot be discussed. Please do not get more warnings, because Lausten and I really hate to ban people from the forum.

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Plesase make your case without fallacious arguments does not mean shutting down the conversation.

 

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I did not wrote that Covid was built as a weapon, i just wrote that it could have leaked from a lab. I can be wrong about the facts i am using to base my reasoning and if you give me a sure and decisive source, i will admit it as i did once other where.

Now, when i say :

"What you must understand is that China has become a totalitarian state”

“And rightly or wrongly Chinese have a reputation for respecting contracts only as long as they must or are interested to.”

These are judgments, i admit that. I just will comment the following one:

“And last, if it is proven that the virus lacked from a Chinese laboratory the financial, political cost will be tremendous. And beyond that the loss of ” face ” would be such that China will be ashamed, looking itself as having lost honor.”

When one causes a wrong to another people, even by mistake, even without intending to, the basic rule is that this one must pay and compensate the dammage. It is a basic rule.

The Covid is the cause of hundred of thousands of deaths.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Even if each death is compensated by a down paiement of 10 000 $, the cost of 3 800 000 deaths is 38 000 000 000 $. And 10 000 $ a death is a minimum.

The economic cost of the Covid in lost jobs, death of societies and enterprises and so would be added.

If i am not mistaken, in USA English, 38 000 000 000 $ = 38 billions $ when in 2020, China Gross domestic product was around 14, 72 trillions of $.

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@richo

Plesase make your case without fallacious arguments does not mean shutting down the conversation.

Take it to the “Issues and Complaints” section of the forum. You’ve already been warned.

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if COVID was a bioweapon, whose bioweapon was it? -- richo
I haven't read the whole thread, but someone mentioned my name, so, jumping in.

a “leak” is not the same as a “weapon”. Governments can experiment with weapons without intending to use them immediately or without having an immediate need. I would hope that ours does enough to understand bioweapons and how to counteract them. I don’t expect my government to tell me everything they are doing, it would be nice if they did, not an unreal expectation. Anyway, the theory is a “leak”. No one needs to address your question about “whose bioweapon”. No need to get upset. No need to disrupt the thread. No need for accusations.

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If it were a bioweapon, I hear that scientists could have, would have, recognized telltale signs. No one of any serious stature has claimed bioweapon - the fuss is about lab leaks.

Beyond that, I just read an interesting article, reflecting on it, seems that, once again USA’s ugliest of americans, that sob trump ho and his idiotic belligerence towards everyone, in this case, with China in particular, - seems to have had more than a little to with China attitude and tight lips, doing what they always do when under attack, they draw in with an absolute distrust for others.

Not making excuses, just pointing out, one hand washes the other. Or as the hippies would say, Karma, it’s a bitch.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/03/08/josh-rogin-chaos-under-heaven-wuhan-lab-book-excerpt-474322

 

Beyond all that, let’s allow the solid evidence to inform our opinion - and that’s still being gathered.