And who is the decider in all this… Putin???
You…???
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Putin the paranoid dictator, that’s who!
But, stop pretending we’re not all f’n guilty and we’ll all be paying the price, even if the reckoning will be spread out unevenly and of course it starts at the bottom, the poor are easy to ignore if you have a full belly, but it won’t stop with them, it’ll simply travel up the pecking order.
At some point the rich will be left with their gold only to discover it’s not enough to sustain their lives.
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Who is the successor to Putin?
Usually there is speculation and predictions on who and their disposition.
Which of these two options do you prefer? The russians have publised their concerns for years about ukraine being part of NATO describing it as a red line an unacceptable risk. How many times were requests to hold talks with NATO and work through this ignored and only to have US diplomats throughout 2021 making things worse in saying to all that Ukraine will be a member of NATO . This they now claim was just Diplomats doing their diplomatic thing in lying to the world.
See former US Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul acknowledge this. In debating Stephen Walt Harvard international affairs professor, Walt questioned why Washington has been consistently pushing for Ukraine’s NATO membership, despite the security concerns raised by Moscow.
"In 2021 we kept reiterating that Ukraine was going to join [NATO],* ” he said. “ We kept saying that, over and over again. ”
McFaul interrupted the professor, suggesting that Washington has never actually been serious about such prospects. “And did you believe that?” the ex-ambassador asked.
Walt - "So, our diplomats are lying?* ”
“ McFaul - “Yes! Yes, that’s the real world, guys, c’mon”
Walt - “Our diplomats are lying all the time, yet the Russians should trust them when they’re offered assurances”
You have this completely backwards. Russia could become a democracy and join NATO in its efforts to keep world peace. No one needs to fear NATO, it has no designs on property or control. NATO is a cooperative, not a coercive power.
Russia is a coercive power and does have designs on property and control!!
There is no “they” that I can trust. Some ex-government guy has an opinion. Big deal. There’s nothing I can do about that. I know my government lies, we literally have entire agencies that get funded but we are not allowed to see what exactly they do. This is how it works. I can’t move to some other country that is totally transparent and also has good medical care available. There are not many options, and I’m too old for that.
Please stop repeating yourself. We know how the world works.
NATO will not be what causes WW3. So the nano second means NATO is a necessity and human stupidity is not.
It’s only unacceptable because Putin does not like democracy. We cannot bow and coo to Putin and he should not be able to control any country except his own- Russia and only Russia. Not Ukraine, Georgia, Hungry, or any other country. He cannot be allowed to bully any other country either. To give into him is giving into a bully. He must have the sanctions. Putin is the problem, not NATO.
@lausten ROFL. Oh so true.
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Honestly, USA and NATO have mistreated Russia and Pµtin for years.
Warning: to explain is not to excuse or justify. I ma going to show the events as Putin analyzed them.
Nato bombing Serbia without any ONU mandate was a warning for Russia.
When Putin came to power, in 2001, relationships between Putin and West were rather good. Putin even talked about Russia becoming a member of NATO and told that it was not a threat. After the 11th of September 2001, he joined the coalition against Islamist.
Extension of NATO in 2004, did not help. NATO is a defensive alliance, but it can attack. and more, NATOµ can be seen as a political organization, with the aim of expanding, if not democracy, at least USA influence.
In 2004, the Orange revolution did not please Putin.
And honestly, it is not good when a democratic government is overthrown by the street, what ever the reasons.
Nevertheless, Putin makes propositions to the USA for new agreements, which are rejected.
In 2007, Putin makes a talk, denouncing the will of Washington to build a world it dominates by strength.
In 2008, Kosovo war was a slap to Putin.
2008 NATO summit declares that Georgia and Ukraine have a vocation to join NATO.
Georgia war followed, and it was difficult for NATOµ to morally objects after the Kosovo business.
Obama election was a welcome change and talks started. H Clinton went to Moscow.
Kadafi death 2011, shows to Putin that West can make war for any reasons it chooses.
The Syria business was another lesson given to Putin. Obama defined a red line and did not act when it was crossed. It is seen as a sign of weakness.
The support given by USA to the Maïdan revolution taught Putin that USA were trying to expand its influence on the borders of Russia. For him, this revolution is the result of a plot by USA.
He replies by installing in Donbass a separatist movement.
In 2015, Putin makes another speech, denouncing the exportation of revolutions, with violence, poverty and social troubles as results.
the result is that Putin sees West as hypocrite, weak, but wanting to dominate by any way.
The attack on the Capitol and the Afgan disaster confirm the weakness of America.
In fact, during all theses years, a big wrong of USA and West has been a denial of the nature of Putin and Russia.
In 2020, Zelenski popularity ratings were at the lowest. He had been elected to fight corruption and corruption was going on, himself being sen as not fully clean. Its mismanagement of the Covid epidemic contributed.
His answers were to close the TV channels of his principal opponent, in February 2020, Viktor Medvedtchouk, a pro-Russia Ukrainian oligarch, and a personal friend of Putin. If an election had been held, he would have won ! USA applauded. Then Zelenski confiscated the goods of the family.
This was not done using legal channels, but presidential decisions.
Then, Mr Medvedchuk was placed under house arrest and unable to fulfill his parliamentary mandate.
As i said in the beginning, that’s the point of view of Putin. And the wrongs of USA and NATO are in part to have accepted many things, including the killing of political opponents or the interference in the USA election.
And, yes Putin could have chosen the path of democracy and peace.
But in diplomacy and politics, it is necessary to understand the point of view of the opponent and to be ready to compromise. It is necessary not to give false signals and show weaknesses.
USA were arrogant, and weak, and in fact hypocrite. the relationship between UCA and Russia has been mismanaged from the beginnings.
Why to help Kosovo to secede and forbid Crimea to ?
Now, as i said, to explain is not to justify.
And Putin attacked, not because he wanted to take a pledge in order to negotiate, but to destroy Ukraine as an independent nation.
“No one needs to fear NATO”
Is the western mantra that russia does not believe . Instead of sitting down and and working through the differences tensions are allowed to escalate with Russia taking action that she feels no other option was available to her. Petrol is added to the fire to ensure tfinal devastation is reached. Ukraine as a non viable state.
the longer the war progresses the worst it gets for Ukraine. The fantasy and lies painted by western media and swallowed by folks here on this forum as Ukraine pushing back russian forces and mounting ukraine victories in battle have hit the reality wall. Ukraine is losing so much territory and soldiers in Donbas that it media has stopped such reporting and are now faced with the inevitable step of negotiation. Zelensky has just come out himself and said this is the inly way out niw that he knows victory is impossible
Only diplomacy can end Ukraine war, says Zelensky
What’s going on here, then? A fortnight ago he was saying they were near to victory. Ukraine was winning. Russia was on its last legs. They were suffering unsustainable losses … So what’s gone wrong?
Now dissent within the USA ruling class has began with the likes of the NYT editorial calling for the USA to face these facts and change its ukraine policy .
"The NYT says that it is the Ukrainians who must make the hard decisions: they are the ones fighting, dying and losing their homes to Russian aggression, and it is they who must decide what an end to the war might look like. "If the conflict does lead to real negotiations, it will be Ukrainian leaders who will have to make the painful territorial decisions that any compromise will demand."
But as the war continues, “Biden should also make clear to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and his people that there is a limit to how far the United States and NATO will confront Russia, and limits to the arms, money and political support they can muster. It is imperative that the Ukrainian government’s decisions be based on a realistic assessment of its means and how much more destruction Ukraine can sustain.”
It is completely unnecessary to add this. It is a blatant rule violation. Speak to individual statements and back up your comments with data.
Many comments have been made here in support of your POV. NYT agrees with b you in part. You are not some voice in the wilderness.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/opinion/america-ukraine-war-support.html
Folks ought to read that editorial for themselves. Prince is too wrapped up in Putin to offer a fair appraisal.
In March, this board argued that the message from the United States and its allies to Ukrainians and Russians alike must be: No matter how long it takes, Ukraine will be free. Ukraine deserves support against Russia’s unprovoked aggression, and the United States must lead its NATO allies in demonstrating to Vladimir Putin that the Atlantic alliance is willing and able to resist his revanchist ambitions.
That goal cannot shift, but in the end, it is still not in America’s best interest to plunge into an all-out war with Russia, even if a negotiated peace may require Ukraine to make some hard decisions. And the U.S. aims and strategy in this war have become harder to discern, as the parameters of the mission appear to have changed. …
The article finishes with,
… Confronting this reality may be painful, but it is not appeasement. This is what governments are duty bound to do, not chase after an illusory “win.” Russia will be feeling the pain of isolation and debilitating economic sanctions for years to come, and Mr. Putin will go down in history as a butcher. The challenge now is to shake off the euphoria, stop the taunting and focus on defining and completing the mission. America’s support for Ukraine is a test of its place in the world in the 21st century, and Mr. Biden has an opportunity and an obligation to help define what that will be. …
Prince is paused for a while. I suspect he is googling headlines that look like they agree with him, and not spending much time reading them. It’s make you feel like you are looking at the news, but it doesn’t contribute to the dialog
Said person can’t respond currently, but I can’t believe there are people that thing Ukraine needs to just give up and surrender to Russia when the Russian military is doing crap like this:
Oh lordie, it gets way worse
The US company Planet is taking revealing satellite images of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. CNN’s Gary Tuchman reports.
The monstrosity is beyond imagining.
And while all eyes are glued on this, few seem to have time to notice the apocalyptic horrors stalking us. Although at this point not sure how much good noticing reality would do.
How can anyone think about saving the future when we are all consumed with blowing up our past and present achievements?
Russia’s aim is to kill every Ukrainian able fight. They want to erase Ukraine from the world map altogether.
If I were NATO, I’d set a dealine for Ukraine’s admission to NATO at say 3 0 days, at which time Ukraine would automatically become a memeber of NATO and entitled to coordinated military intervention . Russia will have no longer anything to say about it.
If this abomination continues NATO will just finish it in short order from the air. Most of the residents have been killed or evacuated anyway and there is only Russian military presence. EASY pickings.
Putin might not be able to say anything about it, but he’d sure be perverbally perturbed.
[quote=“mriana, post:118, topic:9449”]
Putin might not be able to say anything about it, but he’d sure be perverbally perturbed. [/quote]
I was thinking about the other interested parties in the Rusian hierarchy. I heard there was already some grumbling and resignations.
Is Putin that powerful that he can resist a combined effort to reign him in?
Depends. If he chooses to push the button and wipe out all life on earth, then yes. If he chooses not to push the button, then no.