Ukraine

Just a thought - Russia has gone into the Ukraine not only because a large part of the population there is Russian but possibly even more important to them is that they have a major naval base there. The Us would do the same in the Philippines, Okinawa or the middle-east if one the control or access of our military bases was threatened.

That may be the excuse, but I think this has more to do with support for Putin slipping at home so he resorted to his old pattern of picking an “enemy” and showing Russians what a strong leader he is. This is something that has a long tradition in Russian history.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/nov/22/finally-we-know-about-moscow-bombings/

Dunlop, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, seeks in his book to provide the “spade work" for an official Russian inquiry, if it ever were to be initiated (a highly doubtful proposition as long as Putin remains in power). He draws on investigative reporting by Russian journalists, accounts of Russian officials in law enforcement agencies, eyewitness testimony, and the analyses of Western journalists and academics. The evidence he provides makes an overwhelming case that Russian authorities were complicit in these horrific attacks.
It's quite possible that Putin was involved in "terrorist" attacks that killed hundreds of Russians in 1999 and helped trigger a war that killed and maimed thousands. Invading and annexing part of weaker neighbour to rebuild his support in Russia is right in line with this.

This Telegraph piece puts what’s going on in Ukraine right now in a stark context.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/10679121/Ukraine-crisis-We-confront-Vladimir-Putin-now-yet-appeased-him-before.html

Back then, Lyne was a forceful advocate of the relatively new Russian president, Vladimir Putin. He made little attempt to gloss over his brutality and disregard for human rights. Yet he stressed that Putin was the only Russian capable of rescuing his country from the chaos and disaster into which it had plunged after the collapse of Communism. By then, it was already clear exactly how brutal Putin was prepared to be. The second Chechen war, one of the most horrific conflicts of the 21st century, was well under way. Thousands of civilians were being slaughtered by indiscriminate bombing and shelling from Russian forces. Torture and extra-judicial killing were rife. Indeed, not long after my conversation with the British ambassador, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum placed Chechnya on its genocide watch list.
Also seems like there's been a lot of appeasement going on regarding Putin's activities.
It is certain, however, that the British and the Americans knew exactly what Vladimir Putin was like when we stretched out a helping hand to the former KGB officer at the turn of the century. We knew he was a Russian patriot who would stop at nothing to restore the glory of the Soviet empire – and backed him regardless. Not only that, but we stuck to this policy for many years. When the Russians invaded Georgia, we allowed them to get away with it. When Alexander Litvinenko – a British citizen – was murdered in London, the government made the minimum fuss. Recently, it even tried to block the campaign by his brave and dignified widow, Marina, for a public inquiry into the circumstances of his killing (the High Court ruled unanimously in her favour last month). And when Putin resisted British requests for the extradition of Litvinenko’s probable killer, the former KGB agent (and now Russian MP) Andrey Lugovoy, we did nothing.
If he's allowed to gobble up Crimea and Eastern Ukraine then where will this eventually end?

The question is, where will the West end? Gorbachev was promised that after pulling Russians out of East Germany, NATO will not expand east. Well, what do you know? If you were Putin, what would you do? Let the U.S. eventually build military bases in Ukraine?

The question is where will the West end? Gorbachev was promised that after pulling Russians out of East Germany, NATO will not expand east. Well, what do you know? If you were Putin, what would you do? Let the U.S. eventually build military bases in Ukraine?
That's a good question and there has been little real thought on this I think. Russia needs to be included in the family of nations, not fenced off as it has been in the past. At the same time should any world leader be allowed to use violence as a tool of state when the consequences can be so serious?

“Family of nations”? Lol, YOUR nations? You sound like the Christians: except the love of God otherwise he’ll burn you in hell.

"Family of nations"? Lol, YOUR nations? You sound like the Christians: except the love of God otherwise he'll burn you in hell.
International community then, the point is we don't really need another another global conflict whether hot or cold, but that's what we've been working up to in some ways.
but I think this has more to do with support for Putin slipping at home so he resorted to his old pattern of picking an “enemy" and showing Russians what a strong leader he is
That is quite possibly part of it, makes me think of the US invasion of Viet Nam. As the old quote goes "all politics is local." :smirk:

What do people here think the US should do about Ukraine and Crimea? What should Europe do? Or should we all stay out of it? What about trade sanctions?
Lois

There’s a matter of national pride mixed in with this as well and Putin is well aware of it. A guest speaker mentioned this on NPR yesterday. He stated that the Crimea also has a historic significance for the Russians and they are touchy about that region due to the Crimean War in 1856. They still view the defenders of Savastapol (two battles there) just as the U.S. feels about the Battle of Gettysburg, and even though the Russians suffered a stinging defeat by the Allies, i.e. Britain, France they still view the battle is a point of national pride. He also stated that if Putin bows to international pressure then he’s pretty much done as Premier. This amidst the talk of economic sanctions against Russia’s two biggest exports gas and oil. The Germans may have the best hand to play in that regard as they are Russia’s number one trading partner. Chancellor Mekel seems to be making some headway and hopefully both she and Putin can find common ground before the shooting starts. The Ukranians are now forming militia groups to defend the area.
http://news.yahoo.com/cold-war-kids-merkel-and-putin-square-off-over-crimean-crisis-205925438.html
Cap’t Jack

Just a thought - Russia has gone into the Ukraine not only because a large part of the population there is Russian but possibly even more important to them is that they have a major naval base there. The Us would do the same in the Philippines, Okinawa or the middle-east if one the control or access of our military bases was threatened.
No matter the reason for the Ruskies move it happened in their back yard and we would do the same in our back yard if we felt it were necessary.

All of this is just nuts. We need to elect gay guys to President and Prime Minister for every major country. They’re secure in their sexuality and don’t need to be such macho f&*('s.

All of this is just nuts. We need to elect gay guys to President and Prime Minister for every major country. They're secure in their sexuality and don't need to be such macho f&*('s.
Gay or not, beta losers don't usually get to lead much, surely not a country. Evolution has been shaping alpha machos' thirst for power (and our taste in such type of men) for a very long time. One of the reasons Obama got to be a president is thanks to his deep, macho sounding voice. I saw it a long ago when he was still a senator and still remember the first time when I heard him speak and felt the sound of his voice was going to get him far.
That is quite possibly part of it, makes me think of the US invasion of Viet Nam. As the old quote goes "all politics is local." :smirk:
Wasn't Vietnam more about profit for the defence sector than a diversion from American politics?
The question is where will the West end? Gorbachev was promised that after pulling Russians out of East Germany, NATO will not expand east. Well, what do you know? If you were Putin, what would you do? Let the U.S. eventually build military bases in Ukraine?
That's a good question and there has been little real thought on this I think. Russia needs to be included in the family of nations, not fenced off as it has been in the past. At the same time should any world leader be allowed to use violence as a tool of state when the consequences can be so serious? Who's going to stop them? The American superman? Lois
Who's going to stop them? The American superman? Lois
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/joseph_the_red/Wallpapers/CaptainAmericaWallpaper9.jpg
What do people here think the US should do about Ukraine and Crimea? What should Europe do? Or should we all stay out of it? What about trade sanctions? Lois
We should not get involved, there's no way we can fix it. In a perfect world, Ukrainian nationalists should have their own nation state, and the rest of the country should just become another oblast of Russia. That seems unlikely to happen, because the two sides will not be able to agree on borders........remember, Russia actually started in Kiev, so they're emotionally connected to Ukraine.
All of this is just nuts. We need to elect gay guys to President and Prime Minister for every major country. They're secure in their sexuality and don't need to be such macho f&*('s.
What makes you say this? Throughout history, gay leaders have not outshone straight leaders.
All of this is just nuts. We need to elect gay guys to President and Prime Minister for every major country. They're secure in their sexuality and don't need to be such macho f&*('s.
What makes you say this? Throughout history, gay leaders have not outshone straight leaders. How many gay leaders can you identify? Lois

Yeah, and sex is sex. I seem to recall a fair number of legislators who’ve been caught seducing their male underlings. (Oh my goodness, was that a pun? :slight_smile: ) From all the professional athletes who’ve come out recently, it’s pretty clear that gayness isn’t synonymous with acting less macho.
Occam