Luna: the 7-year-old trans child & the custody battle

This is the most detailed piece I’ve seen about Luna, a 7-year-old trans girl at the center of a huge custody battle in the national news.

I found out about it a few days ago on Twitter where people were falsely claiming the mother wants to chemically castrate the child.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/11/11/20955059/luna-younger-transgender-child-custody

It was a decision that brought relief to the trans community and outraged conservatives who believe supporting a trans child’s gender identity is tantamount to child abuse.

The same could be said of not allowing the child to wear the clothes they wish to wear, grow their hair as long as they want or as short as they want, etc etc etc. My older son, who is all male, likes his hair long and has since he was a teen- he’s now 30. The girls love his poofy hair. His dad has wanted him to cut, among other stupid people, and I, who has had long hair most of my life, have told him not to allow anyone to force him to cut his hair, adding that the only one who can decide how to wear his hair is him. The other son wanted a black Ken, a white Barbie and biracial barbie babies. I understood and do you know how hard it was to find barbie babies, much less ones that looked mixed? OMG! Anyway… I must admit though if one had wanted to wear a dress, I would have questioned it. I would have asked if they were really sure, so sure that they’d indure brutal teasing?

if one had wanted to wear a dress, I would have questioned it. I would have asked if they were really sure, so sure that they’d indure brutal teasing?
@Mriana

Of course you would, as would I. The stories families have told, though, involve kids that felt so strongly about their gender, for so long, that they felt more ashamed wearing the “right” clothes than the “wrong” ones.

And are some trans activists pushing things too far? Yes.

OH I agree, trans activists are pushing things too far. Way too far. I’m still on how gender is assigned at birth when XX chromosomes make for female genitals and XY make for male genitals. Only women get pregnant and to see a man be pregnant like a woman would be an anomaly, but under transgender ways, a trans man who hasn’t had what they call “Gender reassignment” (scratching head again) can get pregnant and have a baby. Meanwhile… OK I can’t even continue, but XX is and always has been female and XY has always been male. Now, we have gay/bisexual people in other species, such as penguins, but do we have transgender people in other species?

And if a transwoman who hasn’t has a surgery, to make her female physically, marries a cis male isn’t that homosexuality? (scratching head again) Another mind blower for me- transgender lesbians [males to] females (it’s a thing) I’m totally confused and don’t understand it and the more I think about it, the more my mind gets blown. How are there over 40 genders even (yes, my husband discovered something about that and said, "No! There’s just 2.)? He doesn’t get it either, but unlike me, he doesn’t even try, in which to have his mind blown.

shaking head I just don’t get it, but I’ll still treat everyone regardless of sexual orientation as human. Maybe I wasn’t meant to get it and the bottomline is how we treat each other, despite not understanding.

@Mriana

Oh, I have so many Causes and so little time; LGBTQ isn’t at the top of the list. However, there are a few things that have confused me, that I’ve checked out, so I do know those few things.

 

how gender is assigned at birth when XX chromosomes make for female genitals and XY
Actually, "sex" is what you are talking about here. "Sex" is what XX or XY chromosomes determine; "sex" means penis or vagina; and "sex" is what they write down on a baby's birth certificate.

“Gender” has to do with the societal and cultural roles associated with that sex.

If you have a penis, that’s about sex. If you prefer trucks to dolls, and you know that today you are a boy but someday will be a man, that’s about gender.

But, something like .05%-1% of people (which is actually a lot of people) are born with are born with some degree of indeterminate sex, so the genitals aren’t obviously a penis or a vagina. Parents and doctors make all sorts of decisions when this happens, some good, some bad, often only known in hindsight.

American society is pretty binary; Islamic society is extremely binary, and some societies (in Hawaii, amongst Native Americans, in India and Tahiti) are not binary at all, but have 3, 4 or 5 genders.

Then add sexual attraction into the mix and wow.

The one thing I know for sure is that people have extraordinarily different experiences, and it isn’t up for me to say what’s BS or not. I’m not “woke,” if by “woke” I would have no reaction to my stepson coming out as gay or trans, or that I’d be fine dating a trans man. No. But I’m a little woke, I guess, in that I don’t think “bad morals” are what causes these things.

 

Sex and gender, unless you are talking about “throwing sand” or “rolling in the hay” (that’s sex too), were one and the same, or so Webster wrote in his dictionary and I’ve been told.

I played with trucks and dolls (and did so even when I had small children), wore dresses and pants (still do), climbed trees, played with animals (I had a Nanny and played her kids when I was a child)… I don’t think playing with trucks makes you a man or a woman. That’s stereotyping people. One can drive a big rig, enjoy it and be a woman who’s feminine also. I don’t think such things make one a man or a woman. A man can be a father, stay home with his daughters and play Mr. Mom, playing dress up, tea party, and with dolls, and yet still be a man, a very masculine man, while his wife brings home the bacon and is very much a feminine woman. Again, when one talks about playing with toys, who stays home with the children, does the housework, brings home the bacon, people end up stereotyping, which really has nothing to do with gender/sex.

Yes, I agree, about .05%-1% are born with XXY or XYX or combinations thereof and many of them have certain issues even unable to have children. Some are even born with both sets of genitals and we just have to wait until puberty to find out which reproductive organs (uterus or penis, menstruation or low voice) are dominate and go from there as to which set to remove so that they are what they are. That I understand and what I just said is today’s standard for most parents when that happens, but in the past, they decided shortly after birth for the child and then found out around puberty that they were actually, physically the opposite gender/sex. They raised the child as per what they wanted and not what the child actually was and removed the wrong set of organs.

I’m not woke either, but I would accept it if either one of my sons were gay (neither are, but if they were). However, if one said, after I spent years accepting that I never I had a daughter, yet wanted one, that they believed they were actually a girl, I’d struggle, but still love them. They are my children and I can’t fathom how any parent could throw their own child out into the streets because that child didn’t conform to a stereotype, physical gender, or stupid society’s of who they should marry. I thank Loving v. Virginia for ruling that I can marry any man of any colour that I feel that I love without having my children taken from because I didn’t birth same skin colour children (white) or I wouldn’t have the sons I have today. I love them dearly and my mother never disowned me for it. Granted that marriage didn’t last, but that’s because he wouldn’t/couldn’t stop doing and selling drugs and drinking (to this day he’s still an active alcoholic and still does some drugs). Still I Loving v Virginia said I have the right to marry any one of any colour and I think people have the right to marry anyone they want and love period, regardless of skin colour or gender/sex. I am woke about that much. The rest I just don’t understand, but just accept it as part of the human species.

In case you want Webster’s definition: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

2a: SEX sense 1a the feminine gender b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex c: GENDER IDENTITY

It would seem we are both right, but definition 2c was added in more recent years.

Are gender and sex the same? Usage Guide Noun

The words sex and gender have a long and intertwined history. In the 15th century gender expanded from its use as a term for a grammatical subclass to join sex in referring to either of the two primary biological forms of a species, a meaning sex has had since the 14th century; phrases like “the male sex” and “the female gender” are both grounded in uses established for more than five centuries. In the 20th century sex and gender each acquired new uses. Sex developed its “sexual intercourse” meaning in the early part of the century (now its more common meaning), and a few decades later gender gained a meaning referring to the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex, as in “gender roles.” Later in the century, gender also came to have application in two closely related compound terms: gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female, some combination of male and female, or neither male nor female; gender expression refers to the physical and behavioral manifestations of one’s gender identity.

There’s a lot more, but you can read the rest yourself, but as I said, we’re both right. As the Flintstones said, “We’ll have a gay ole time!” Meaning happy. That definition still exists, but is now archaic and has been since the '70s and I suspect eventually gender and sex as the same thing will eventually go the same way.

Sex and gender, unless you are talking about “throwing sand” or “rolling in the hay” (that’s sex too), were one and the same, or so Webster wrote in his dictionary and I’ve been told.
They do overlap for the most part. I think this is one of the main areas where trans activists are taking things too far, as you said.

“Throwing sand” doesn’t sound like any sex I was ever involved in, even at the beach. Did I miss something?

@Mriana

Yes, you’re correct. I should have said that these terms are coming to mean two different things.

@TimB You’ve heard of “sex on the beach”? That’s where the term “throwing sand” comes from and while I haven’t, some people have.

I am still confused. You seem to have admitted to not doing something, but I am still not sure what. And I have heard of a cocktail called “sex on the beach”. In my younger days at beaches, I am sure I contemplated and quickly ruled out the actuality of engaging in intercourse, directly on the beach. The grittiness of the sand makes that a no-go IMO.

Imagine. You have sand all over, in all crevices and especially on any sticky parts, external or internal that have been contacted by sand granules. You brush at it. You might try shimmying about to get it to shake off. You could try a blow dryer with the heat off, to blow it off. Moist towlets maybe. Or full on soaking bath plus whatever else women have up their sleeve (so to speak) for such occasions.

Better to be in the tent, protected from sand. But if the tent is on the sand, then you ARE having sex on the beach.

But, I digressed. I wanted to say that nowhere have I seen an adequate explanation as to why “throwing sand” should come to have meant having sex on the beach.

But I have taken 30 secs or so to think about it and I now have a hypothesis. Consider someone who was a proponent of people having sex on the beach. Someone who was such a strong proponent that he ventured to secretly observe people who actually were having sex on the beach.

Could it be that in certain sexual positions, the natural carnal motions that accompany those positions, actually thrust forward grains of sand that had accumulated on the lovers’ bodies? And if so, could that projecting forth of granules be seen as “throwing sand”?

Ancient Alien researchers say “Yes”. And I do also. Tho I invite any competing hypotheses.

@Mriana There is going to far when you let society go off the deep end. So gender has always meant (until the last 15 years) the persons sex. Then you get a group that wants to do word play and make claims that gender is concept instead of actual biology. Now the flood gates are open and it’s not just male or female it’s Cis, They, Zat, Gutt, Munchkin, Vamp, etc. and anyone how disagrees with the narrative is a transphobic person. I brought this up years ago on this forum and everyone blasted at me about how hateful I was being.

ExMachina, I wouldn’t be so sure about what “gender” has meant for all of history. Gender fluidity has been recognized in a variety of ways throughout history and still is in many cultures. I know there are extremes right now, where a small group of people have claimed that gender is completely detached from biology, that it’s purely cultural. However, there are no floodgates and I don’t expect this is headed for any deep end. Your hyperbole is just as unhelpful to the discussion as there’s is.

It’s not helping me understand anything. All I know is what Merriam Webster and other dictionaries say about gender/sex and XX or XO, along with the chromosomal disorders of XXO or alike, which usually brings about either two sets of genitals or intellectual issues, or both or worse, shortened life span in some cases. Long ago, on extremely rare instances, parents would have a child with the chromosomal abnormality of a baby having two sets of genitals or externally they’d look like on gender, but on the inside, have the organs of the other gender. The first scenario, parents would decide for the baby, before the baby even had a chance to decide for themselves, which gender s/he would be. Sometimes this met with bad results in that internally they were the opposite gender and those hormones kicked in at puberty- meaning, the parents said, “Oh good, we can still have our little girl” make her a girl by chopping off the boy parts, leaving her with the vagina, and you’d end up with a bearded lady in the circus years later because male hormones kicked in, instead of the female ones. (no joke intended) Of course, vice versa happened too, except the ovaries didn’t function properly in the male version, but the guy either didn’t have the usual voice changes or they’d find it in a sperm count deal when trying to find out why he and his wife weren’t having a baby. I get that stuff. That’s pretty straight forward. But this transgender stuff, where they say, like internet and TLC channel Jazz says, “I have a girl brain, but a boy body” or which there actually isn’t such a thing, according to psychologists, psychiatrists, neurologists… pretty much those who study the brain, but what is brain (to borrow from Star Trek). Although gender dysmorphia has been removed from the DSM-V, this mess is still called that sometimes, until the transgender person has the surgery and hormones to align themselves physically and mentally. I do understand that mentally the person doesn’t see themselves as they are physically or don’t want to be what they are physically, but it’s no longer a mental disorder, just like being homosexual is not, though I comprehend homosexuality, even though I am not.

So transgender people are born physically and chromosomally male (XO= penis) or female (XX = vagina). I don’t see how that is assigned gender at birth, because XX has always created a vagina, uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes, etc, which means female. XO has always created testicles, penis, and all things males have. That has been the standard since the beginning of language. So um… OK so we have boy babies and girl babies. We are all on a level playing field as far as understanding. What I want to know is, how is a person born male ups and decides “I’m a girl!” or a female decides, “I’m a boy!” What makes them think that? I’m female, always have been, don’t know what it would feel like to be male and really, I don’t want to know because I like being a girl (not trying to sound like Oklahoma). To me, being female means playing with cars and dolls, climbing trees and wearing a dress (not at the same time lol), checking the fluids in my car and cleaning my house, etc. Not sure why a male can’t do the same and my sons did/have (except the dress bit) without feeling as though they lost their masculinity. Then you have someone who says they are trans and it’s because they “feel like a girl” (or boy). I don’t know what it feels like to be female, because I don’t know what it means to be/feel male. I just don’t know what that means when they say that. I just know I’m happy with myself and don’t care if people say, “You’re a real girly girl”, because I know I am a girl. It’s who I am physically and mentally and known nothing else. So what is it that makes transgender people think they aren’t what they were born? How did Chastity Bono, who was gay, decide that she was really a he and became Chaz Bono? Being gay doesn’t mean one is trans. Not all gay people see themselves as the opposite gender, but some do.

I hope I haven’t insulted anyone. I’m just trying to understand without feeling as though my brain is about to blow due to lack of understanding. I would appreciate some real science in this mess too, not this modern mumbo jumbo young people speil that there doesn’t seem to be any scientific backing to it. Although I don’t feel so bad, my son and his girlfriend don’t understand this either. Maybe there isn’t anything needed to be understood. Maybe it’s just one of those things in which we accept the person as they are and sometimes it’s just totally confusing, but so be it.