Islamophobia isn't a real thing

Religion and Secularism
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@advocatus

Let’s look at a similar word, “homophobia”...
There are hundreds of words that end with "phobia," but other than referring to the fear or hatred of something, the context of each is really different.
Is “Islamophobia” something similar? Not so much a reaction to terrorism as a reaction to the world once again not being the way it “used to be”, when religious freedom in America just meant that everyone was free to attend the Christian church of his or her choice.
No. I don't see how. No other group categorized in the area of religion or belief as feared and hated in America like the Muslims are...

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…Except, of course, for non-believers. But I don’t think there is a term for hating us. Legit discrimination against atheists exists (in hiring, family law and running for elected office), but it isn’t a specific “thing” with a name. And while atheists proper are only 3.1% of the US population, the share of “religiously unaffiliated” is almost 23% now, and rising every year. So we’re taking over!

There is Antisemitism, referring to those who fear and dislike Jews and Judaism, but that’s been a complex issue worldwide for 2,000 years.

There is Xenophobia, referring to those who fear anyone who is making America less white and less Christian.

There is a streak of anti-Catholism among a specific minority of Protestants, who claim Catholics are pagan. But those same folks hate and fear pagans and Wiccans too, and there isn’t a term for that.

If Islamophobia in America had nothing whatsoever to do with Sirhan Sirhan, Black September, the Iran Hostage Crisis, the World Trade Center Bombing and 9-11, and was just about Muslims not being Christians, then I would expect to see Buddhismophobia, Hinduismophobia, New Ageophobia, Scientologistobphobia, etc. (And Muslims are 1% of the population in the US, so it isn’t like they’re taking over America…yet! LOL)

It’s true that a lot of Americans do, wrongly, conflate Muslims and Middle-Easterners, even though only 20% of Muslims are Middle Eastern (most of the rest are Indian and Asian). Those folks are ignorant, but before calling them “racist,” I’d want to know how they feel about people of other races.

But anyway…No. Pretty sure that for most, it really is about the violence.

One thing that’s very funny about the polls on which religions Americans trust and distrust…While Evangelicals are right up there with Jews and Catholics, it’s also true that the more Americans actually know Evangelicals personally, the LESS they like and trust them. And Evangelicals are the ONLY religious groups to which this rule applies!! LOL!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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In related news, re. my frustrations about Christian “whataboutism” in discussing Islam, and because my feelings about Islam do NOT come out of Conservative arguments but Liberal ones, I’m cringing to see what Trump may tweet on the news about Omar.

In case people have missed it, the news just broke that Rep. Ilhan Omar has filed for divorce, claiming the marriage is “irretrievable," amid allegations of an affair with her political consultant Tim Mynett.

This isn’t just a rumor. Mynett denies it, but his wife has filed for divorce, cited longtime knowledge of the affair in her legal complaint, saying he told her that he is in love with Omar, and even that he has introduced Omar to their son. There’s photos of them, and charges that she’s paid him $200,000 for “consulting” that wasn’t legit.

I have no particular feelings about Omar either way, but I think if the charges are true she should resign her post…and yes, her being a Muslim is extremely relevant here, because this:

"Those who commit zina (adultery) men or women, give each of them a hundred lashes" Qur'an 24:2.
Right here's the false equivalency with I scream about. I can hear my fellow Liberals now:

:heavy_check_mark:"But what about all the Republican Evangelicals who have affairs?"

“:heavy_check_mark:So? They would be stoned according to the Old Testament! Jews and Christians are just as bad!”

:heavy_check_mark:"It’s 2019. Islam is a few hundred years younger than Christianity. The thinking will evolve."

:heavy_check_mark:"Well, yeah, they do that in the Middle East. But that’s because the whole culture is backwards. It has nothing to do with Islam."

No! No! No! No!!!

A HUGE difference between Christianity and Islam (besides the fact that Christians are no longer under Mosaic law) is that Islam comes installed with a system of civic and criminal law that governs daily routines, familial and religious obligations, and financial dealings.

There is no “secular law” or “separation of mosque and state” in Islam, because Islam isn’t a personal faith like Christianity, but an “architectonic system” that INCLUDES the political realm within it. Even when the Roman Catholic church was the dominant institution in the western world, rulers still came up with their own laws and penalties… Islam has those, and (theoretically), they are obligatory.

While no country actually follows all of Sharia, and it has changed over time and various interpretations exist, there is still NOTHING in Christianity or Islam that would deal as harshly with Omar as any Islamic nation or Sharia would.

So she is damn lucky to be here. She should think about that.

I’m not even gonna touch the craziness of her being married to 2 guys at once, one of them very possibly her brother.

All this said, I don’t hate her, and I don’t want her to be attacked or disgraced, least of all from that psychopath in the White House. But some honesty would be nice.

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I have the same probs with Islam as you. However, I don’t think Omar should be treated differently from other political leaders, simply due to her religion. That’s not right. We mustn’t go there.

I am concerned about her character, but not more than I would be about that of a male politician in the same situation. I am glad she is not my congresswoman, because I would have to consider whether I would vote to keep her in office.

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I don’t think Omar should be treated differently from other political leaders, simply due to her religion. That’s not right. We mustn’t go there.
I agree with you. To be clear: I'm not saying WE (the public) should treat her any differently. I'm talking about her choices about how to handle this. In this day and age, I would prefer ANY elected official to CHOOSE to step down if adultery is made public...it's integrity. And in the case of Omar, I would hope that feeling of integrity would be even stronger because of her religion, but I'm talking about her own decisions.

It will be interesting to see what her Muslim supporters would say. Also, this, unfortunately, does put her in danger of bodily harm, not just from Trumpian (true) Islamophobes, but from actual Muslims who live here.

 

When Trump tweeted the 9-11 video and said Omar was partying that day, it was terrifying and grotesque. I can’t believe it wasn’t an impeachable offence.

 

 

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I made a reply to this an hour or two ago but I must have closed the page too soon or something, so I guess I’ll do it again.

I am not saying that the feelings and actions that the word Islamophobia describes, by its definition, are not real. But it is not being used “by its definition”. It is being used as a means of calling people bigoted. It is being used as an attack against a much wider swath of people than its definition would encompass.

But besides that what I am really saying is that it is not deserving of being a thing. There is no other belief system which has a phobia associated with it. Not one, at least that I’m aware of. Antisemitism, as I mentioned, is about ethnic Jews, not religious Jews. It’s a racist thing, not a religionist thing. So by validating the word you are saying that Islam is somehow special, that it, as a belief system, is somehow deserving of special protections and considerations which other belief systems are not. I cannot argue against it being “more deserving” because that would be arguing a negative. I can very easily, however, argue for it being less deserving.

To show that it is less deserving of protection you only have to look at the laws Muslims make when they rule countries. There are 13 countries where leaving the faith or committing blasphemy are punishable by death. Anyone want to venture a guess at what percentage of those are Muslim majority countries? I’ll give you a hint. The percentage is a 3 digit number. In 13 countries in the world, every one of them Muslim majority, leaving Islam or committing blasphemy against Islam is punishable by death. And I have been saying that there were 7 countries where having no faith carried the death penalty. My data was out of date. It’s now those same 13 countries.

THIS is deserving of special protection? THIS is deserving of a word we can use to bash people over the head with if they speak out against it? Not Buddhism? Not Hinduism? Not Christianity? Not atheism? Not Satanism? And Wicca! Where’s the love for the hippy Wiccans who are more Christ-like than most Christians I’ve met? No, NONE of those are worthy of a special word we can use to call people who speak out against them bigots with. You know, before they are also put to death for speaking out against the beliefs.

No, not all Muslims agree with this. I’m not saying every single Muslim everywhere is bad, obviously. I’m saying that the religion, Islam, is the SINGLE WORST widely practiced religion in the world, allowing for a not insignificant number of its practitioners to believe that it’s all right to kill people you disagree with. There was another honor killing in the news just last week, and that’s aside from the legalized murder.

EDIT: Just saw this

When Trump tweeted the 9-11 video and said Omar was partying that day, it was terrifying and grotesque. I can’t believe it wasn’t an impeachable offence.
Apparently there is a Congressional rule stating that Congress cannot call the president racist. The rule is centuries old, written by a slave owner. So of course Republicans are gleeful to enforce the rule, especially considering which presidents are most likely to be called racist. (Hint: It's the racist ones who thing Strom Thurmond was a hellofa guy.)
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Wow. Congress has a rule that limits its members’ freedom of speech (for the sake of the POTUS)? That was a stupid idea.

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Yeah, it was made during the time when the whole “3/5 of a person” thing was still in effect, so, not really that surprising that “rights” weren’t exactly at the top of their list.

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I guess a few of them may have even longed for a return to a monarchy. (Due to familiarity with it.)

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what I am really saying is that it is not deserving of being a thing.
That was not clear before. Glad you took the time to re-do that post.
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Tee Bryan Peneguy wrote: "No. I don’t see how. No other group categorized in the area of religion or belief as feared and hated in America like the Muslims are…"
That's only because people have been stirred up over the past 20 years to associate Muslims with terrorism. Even though Jews and Catholics are at the top of the poll you cited, there's still a certain amount of anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic feeling going around. And in Conservative America there certainly are people who hate Wiccans and Buddhists and New Agers. These groups are just not as "in your face" these days as gays and Muslims are, which is why we don't have "-phobias" for them. I would just point out that there really hasn't been a big Muslim terrorist strike in the United States since 9/11! Most of the mass shootings we've had lately have been done by white guys. I don't know about anybody else, but I don't hate Muslims just for being Muslims. What I hate is terrorism. I hate anybody who shoots indiscriminately at unarmed civilians, whether they happen to be Muslims or White Supremacists or atheists.
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Yeah, I realized that it wasn’t clear what I was saying because of the wording I chose. It was very easy to look at the title and simply say, “Yes it is! I’ve seen it!” We’ve all actually seen it in spades over the last 3 years, especially. It “exists” as defined. It just shouldn’t be defined because it is no more a problem, and arguably far less a problem, than many other forms of religious belief discrimination which remains undefined in such a way. And, of course, I find it personally insulting that the word was created to defend the beliefs which are used to justify putting me to death for my own beliefs, which have no such protection.

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I’m not defending Islamic beliefs, if that’s what you mean. But I am saying we shouldn’t automatically condemn all Muslims because of what the extreme minority does.

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@widdershins I totally understand and agree with what you are saying and originally meant to say.

@advocates

 

there’s still a certain amount of anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic feeling going around. And in Conservative America there certainly are people who hate Wiccans and Buddhists and New Agers.
Right. You are repeating what I said. I listed these groups because there IS a certain amount of hatred for them out there. However, we do not have a particular word for these; as W said, it is "defined in such a way," which was my point.
I would just point out that there really hasn’t been a big Muslim terrorist strike in the United States since 9/11! Most of the mass shootings we’ve had lately have been done by white guys
You are 100% right. I have discussed this point. On another thread here I explained the difference between what's happening here and what's happening worldwide.

 

I don’t know about anybody else, but I don’t hate Muslims just for being Muslims.
Nor do I. In more than one thread here, I have gone gone into great detail to explain the difference between hating Muslim people and hating the religion of Islam, which is, in fact, categorically different than any other world religion in multiple ways. I have linked to a short article I wrote touching on this, and provided 2 excellent short (10 min) videos by liberal atheists (not Sam) saying exactly what I say.

 

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@advocatus

For the most part, with the exception of almost exclusively the religious right, nobody is condemning all Muslims for what a few extremists do. I hate Islam. That has nothing to do with Muslims. I hate Christianity. But I love my Christian mother. The two are not the same. I can say, “Islam is evil” and not mean “Muslims are bad”, and I do.

I would also point out that the reason there has not been a Muslim terrorist strike in the US since 9/11 is very much NOT for lack of trying. The Patriot Act allows the government to spy on all people, all the time. It is a very effective tool at thwarting organized attacks. There have been 10 planned attacks thwarted just during Trump’s time in the White House, and that’s only the publicly acknowledged ones. Muslim terrorist attacks are still very prevalent in the rest of the world.

While the Patriot Act keeps us safe from terrorist attack I would like to point out that I am not a supporter in the least. The Patriot Act is more terrifying to me than any terrorist attack ever was. If misused, the data they are collecting on us could potentially be used as a way to create a totalitarian regime without us ever knowing it. They could, in theory, identify how each individual is likely to vote with a high degree of accuracy. They could identify people who are likely to speak out in a certain way. They could assess the effectiveness of propaganda nearly instantly and adjust it accordingly. They have insight into our daily lives which could, in theory, be used to manipulate the population as a whole, behind the scenes, without us ever knowing it. They could use this to create unrest, protests, violence, create support or disfavor for laws, even manipulate votes, not by cheating, but by using targeted propaganda to actually manipulate how people will vote. And that’s what they could do with this information IF they were not willing to kill people to achieve their goals. It only gets scarier from there. If the opioid crisis has taught us anything it should be that people who have money and power will happily kill as many people as they need to in order to get more money and power, without a second thought.

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I agree with w.

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@advocatus

CORRECTION: I earlier asserted that 10 terrorist plots have been prevented just during Trump’s tenure, either insinuating or outright stating that these were Muslim terrorist plots. It suddenly dawned on me a few moments ago that I had not actually checked that. When I did, I was wrong. Most, if not all of them were, as Advocatus claimed, white guys. This means my claim, that Muslim lead terrorist plots in America, is currently unsupported while the claim of Advocatus is handily supported by my own facts. I still believe what I stated, that Muslim terrorist groups are still trying but their attempts are being thwarted, but am at this minute unwilling to look it up for certain. Until I or someone else does present facts which support my claim Advocatus should be considered to be absolutely correct and my claims dubious.

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Correction noted. We should all be regularly checking the veracity of each other’s claims, as well as that of our own.

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1/2

An interesting and short (8-minute) piece by Slate journalist Aymann Ismail, a Muslim who’s also a Progressive, interviewing ex-Muslims about why they left the faith.

It says that about 95% of ex-Muslims are socially and politically liberal, and they are frustrated both at liberals (who don’t take Islam seriously) and conservatives (who use their experiences to fuel right-wing hatred against Muslims).

None of these people “hate Muslims.” They hate Islam, and they want others to understand the difference.

(8.59) "People don't want to talk about this. But it's the Left that should be owning this issue, because it's about civil rights."

~Muhammad Syed, Ex-Muslims of North America


Ismail is an Egyptian-American who grew up in New York City. He still identifies as Muslim, but I suspect he’s in the process of deconstruction. If he is intellectually honest with himself, at some time in the future (a month or a decade from now) he will wind up atheist.

There is a place toward the end where he talks about how talking with the ex-Muslims is actually “strengthening his faith,” and he thinks more Muslims should be willing to examine their faith and discuss their issues and doubts.

There was a long period during my deconstruction where I, too, said that talking with people of different faiths actually strengthened my own (“the unexamined faith is not worth having”).

The problem is that in Islam, simply discussing and debating one’s difficulties Muhammad and the Qur’an is expressly prohibited. This is not the case in Christianity or Judaism.

 

(Next)

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Okay, I looked it up again and this time paid a little more attention. I looked back only as far as 2016 for general data. There are still multiple Islamist terrorist plots thwarted each year in the US with 3 on the list so far this year. However they are all much smaller scale, usually just one person, and are by US residents and citizens who are ISIS sympathizers. This does not exactly support my claim as I stated it.

However, looking further back for specifics there was a thwarted incident in 2009 involving 8 men affiliated with Al Qaeda. They had intended to bomb the New York subway system. That is the most major thing I can find. But they are still active in the rest of the world, so I do still believe that the only reason we don’t see those attacks here is because it’s so difficult for them to get here, and, though I hate to give him credit and the way he did it is pretty much evil (if I believed in such a thing), Trump has made it much harder for terrorists (and sick children) to get here.

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Here, in a nutshell, are two reasons why Islam is different.

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THE SCRIPTURES

The Christian Bible is actually a collection of at least 66 books, written by at least 40 authors over a period of 1,500 years. When Christians say the Bible is “the Word of God,” they mean that God inspired the writers. But even Fundamentalist Christians (Biblical Literalists, who see the Bible as inerrant) understand that the writers were immersed in their own cultures, and used their own words. This is why they can say things like “What is Luke saying in this chapter?” (And it’s the same for Jews with the Tanakh.)

In contrast, the Qur’an was orally revealed by God to a single man – Muhammad – through the archangel Gabriel, over 23 years. According to tradition, Muhammad was illiterate; he could not have injected his own opinion, as the markings he put on paper were meaningless to him. For all practical purposes, the Bible was “channeled,” verbatim. When Muslims say the Qur’an is “The Word of God,” they don’t mean that it was divinely inspired. They mean, it in a very literal way, that God wrote it.

We all interpret everything we read, even books by Dr Seuss. That’s what reading is: the brain sees letters and interprets meaning from them. But when it comes to RELIGIOUS interpretation, even the most Conservative Christians have more wiggle-room with the Bible than even the most “Liberal” Muslims have with the Qur’an. I am not saying there aren’t Muslims who are Liberal. I’m saying that Muslims have little theological justification for Liberalism.

THE MEN

It’s so bizarre to me, now, when Liberals say, “All religions are basically the same. God simply spoke to different people in different cultures.” I used to think this myself, until I finally saw what was blatantly obvious.

To be clear: We don’t know the real, objective history. But let’s compare the GENERALLY- ACCEPTED NARRATIVE about both men:

Jesus was an itinerant teacher and ascetic who ostensibly never married or owned property. He said that people should “turn the other cheek” and “love their enemies.” Other than mentioning a metaphorical sword, and using a whip on merchants in the temple, he was not violent, and extorted his followers not to use violence. He submitted to torture and execution by authorities.

Mohammad was a war general who led an insurgency. He fought eight major battles, led 18 raids, and planned 38 military operations. He created “the world’s first army motivated by a coherent system of ideological belief.” He was a man of wealth, much of it booty, who owned, captured and sold slaves. He had between 11 and 13 wives – the youngest 6 years old – plus numerous concubines, and was said to have “the sexual prowess of 30 men.” Mohammed expressly demanded that his followers kill enemies of Islam, not just during his lifetime but perpetually after his death; it is a standing order.

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Now, really THINK about the difference between saying, “I love Jesus with all my heart and want to emulate him,” and someone saying “Mohammed was a great man and I wish to follow his example.”

To deny the difference between these two religions is simply ludicrous.

 

*PS I actually spent a bit of time here, trying to explain, hoping to contribute thoughtfully to this conversation.