We should be talking of “Religious Jews, Christians, Muslims etc”. It’s a serious categorisation error.
It’s insulting to secular jews to assume that they are religious.
It plays into the hands of the religious, who want us to view all jews as part of the religious clan and margialise the non-religious, who are not so vocal.
I don’t agree that that it is a serious matter and not an issue to non-Jews.
I don’t think people care.
Obviously not; otherwise, you wouldn’t be trying to draw attention to it.
There are probably some people, like yourself, who believe it is serious enough.
Jews eating bacon is like Muslims drinking whiskey. Permissiveness is an American value and, generally, Americans of every faith are not religious fanatics. From my observation, Israelis are no different from American Jews when it comes to irreverence. Nothing seems to be sacred to these folks. If you are a secular American Jew, the only people who would make you feel marginalized would be religious Jews. I grew up in New York which is a Jewish enclave. Secular Jews like Woody Alan or Howard Stern wouldn’t give a damn about getting marginalized by the guy in black with the fedora hat.
Whether people think that I’m correct - Sounds right to me.
Whether people agree that it’s a serious issue - I think it is something people should know.
Whether people can think of a better term than “Religious Jews”, to descibe jews that follow Judaism. -Personally I like the term "Jews who lack intellectual integrity".
Whether people believe it’s serious enough to take it on board and change their terminology.- I think there are problems of greater concern in the world today. But go for it if you have nothing better to do.
Whether people believe it’s serious enough to encourage others to change their terminology - see the previous answer
<b>A tip: Sree has a rather skewed view of the world and VERY often says things that are just wrong.</b>
Jews are not prohibited from eating bacon and can eat bacon quite openly. Muslims are prohibited from drinking whiskey and will be get in trouble for doing so. Why would you think that it's the same?
I think there are problems of greater concern in the world today - That’s the argument that was always used against equal pay for women or any push for equal rights for women. It’s not important. It’s a distraction from the real issues etc etc.
If we can erroneously classify a whole section of the human race as religious, what else have we got wrong?
If we mistakenly refer to millions of secular people, as religious, why should anyone take anything else we say seriously?
There are about 7 million Jews in the USA. This is about 2% of Americans. Why would Jews eating bacon be a big concern to the rest of the country? The rest of the Jews in the world are mostly in Israel which has a population of about 9 million. In total, there are about 16 million or 0.2% Jews in the world. Who cares about Jews be they secular or otherwise except me who likes pastrami or corned beef on rye, smoked salmon and cream cheese on bagel, brisket and gravy? Jews who serve up these foods don't parade themselves as secular Jews. They are proud of their tribal culture and live it: celebrate Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and can smell each other in any public space. If you are a Jew, I bet you are bar mitzvahed. I am not a Jew and even I, growing up in New York, couldn't avoid a bar mitzvah. Claiming that one is a secular Jew is bogus.
I like Jews. Those few that I have met, and interacted with, have all been exceptional people, in my opinion. They were all secular. So that is my experience.
I have not met or interacted with the most religious Jewish persons. So I don’t know about them, except that I, personally think that just about any overly religious person is messed up, regardless of their particular flavor of religiosity.
So personally, I DO NOT classify secular Jews as religious. I know that they can be and often are atheists. That is what I would like the public to know about Jews.
BTW, I do think equal pay for women is a more important issue, but then, I am not Jewish.
Despite their small percentage of the world's population, Jews have significantly influenced and contributed to human progress in many fields, both historically and in modern times, including philosophy,[35] ethics,[36] literature,[37] politics,[37] business,[37] fine arts and architecture,[37] music, theatre[38] and cinema, medicine,[39][40] and science and technology,[37] as well as religion; Jews authored the Bible,[41][42] founded Early Christianity[43] and had a profound influence on Islam.[44] Jews have also played a significant role in the development of Western Civilization.[45][46]
Despite their small percentage of the world’s population, Jews have significantly influenced and contributed to human progress in many fields, both historically and in modern times, including philosophy,[35] ethics,[36] literature,[37] politics,[37] business,[37] fine arts and architecture,[37] music, theatre[38] and cinema, medicine,[39][40] and science and technology,[37] as well as religion; Jews authored the Bible,[41][42] founded Early Christianity[43] and had a profound influence on Islam.[44] Jews have also played a significant role in the development of Western Civilization.
That’s very interesting but I don’t see how that is relevant.
You can talk of Catholic Jews or Atheist Jews. It’s wrong to assume that they all follow Judaism.
You can’t talk of Catholic Muslims. That’s a contradiction in terms.
I do think equal pay for women is a more important issue…
I wasn’t comparing which was the most important issue or what is your personal view on equal pay for women.
I was saying that it’s the same style of argument. Back in the 60’s and 70’s, women’s equality was not taken seriously. Most people in those days considered them right but that it just wasn’t very important, compared to other issues.
I’m saying that this is the same style of argument as saying that dis-enfranchising and misrepresenting the views of millions of people, is not important.
I know that they can be and often are atheists
If you know it, they why are you happy for them to be refered to as religious? Why reject our allies?
Would you be happy if North Americans were always refered to as white, caucasian? Why continue with something so obviously wrong?
I do not reject secular Jews. Did you not read what I said? I am not HAPPY that Jews are referred, as a block, to be religious. Because I know that is not true. I like truth. So I agree that is inaccurate to assume that Jews as a block are religious. Not only is it inaccurate, it is ignorant. I can see that it is quite possibly insulting to secular Jewish people.
But I am not insulted about it, except to the extent that I am insulted by falsities.
I am not Jewish. If I were, maybe I would be insulted. But so what? Being insulted about something is not an argument against that something. People get insulted about stuff all of the time. So what? They can get un-insulted in the same pants they got insulted in. IOW someone being insulted is no argument against that something. I could be insulted that your name is Philip, because that is my dead brother’s name. Is that your issue or mine? Hint: that would be my issue.
TimB: I do think equal pay for women is a more important issue…….
Philip: I wasn’t comparing which was the most important issue or what is your personal view on equal pay for women.
I was saying that… …this is the same style of argument as saying that dis-enfranchising and misrepresenting the views of millions of people, is not important.
TimB: What I think is important about your issue on this matter is the fact that representing all Jews as religious is not true. So please spread the truth. Personally, I think there are a lot more outright lies in the public domain today that are MORE destructive that this one. But if this is the most important lie for you to fight against, please, go for it.
I can see that it is quite possibly insulting to secular Jewish people.
I’m glad that we are in agreement.
As an atheist, I wouldn’t be happy if I was always assumed to be religious and constantly referred to as a religious person.
But I think that is a side-issue. The main point is that it very inaccurate, in print, blogs and speeches, for millions of secular people to be refered to as religious.
The main point is that it very inaccurate, in print, blogs and speeches, for millions of secular people to be refered to as religious.
I agree that it is inaccurate for millions of secular people to be referred to as religious. To the extent that that is the case, I wish you well in your efforts toward that characterization being corrected in the public domain.
@theoneguy
Not sure it’s a big concern as most Americans already think of Jews as an ethnic group first and a religion second.
Just my point. Jew are not a religion first, second or at all. They are a people.
It would be like refering to Arabs, instead of Muslims.
I don't think Jews as an ethnic group can be fully separated from Judaism in the way you can separate Arabs as and ethnic group and Islam.
As far as I know, Judaism plays a pretty big role in the Jewish identity whether an individual is secular or not.