W, I appreciate your clarification.
Thanks. As I said, I’m a stickler for facts and truth, and that applies even when I’m the one who got it wrong. I don’t care if I look wrong. I only care if I am wrong. I want to stop being wrong, regardless whether it makes me look stupid or not. The next time I won’t look as stupid because I won’t still be spouting the same incorrect garbage.
Tee,
Years ago on this very site (CFI FORUMS) I was making all of the arguments about Islam that you are. My stance was that Islamic doctrine is unique in its likelihood of being interpreted to foster and promote violence. As I recall, at the time, I tended to be the sole voice for that perspective. I was faced with answering all of the typical pro-Islam talking points, like “the Christians were horribly violent for certain periods in history, hence Islam is just going thru a phase of its youth.”
Now there seem to be more acceptance of your points.
Bill Maher has been saying this for years too. I’ve always thought it. I don’t care if they are going through the same “phase” Christianity did 600 years ago or whatever. I’m not living “600 years ago”. And this defense of Islam is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. You’re defending behavior today because someone else did the same thing centuries ago? Do you have any idea how stupid that concept is? Can we defend slavery today because of what Americans did 200 years ago? Can we defend antisemitism today because of what the Nazis did 80 years ago? Absolutely not! The argument is ridiculous.
Not to mention that the world was a little different 600 yrs ago. That level of evil, against humanity, in Christianity is no longer, front and center, a part of Christianity. But it still can be, and often is, in Islam despite our living in a world of mass communication, education, ease of transportation.
I’m like you. And I feel we liberals need to be beyond reproach.
I have actually thanked Conservatives a time or two when they have respectfully provided legit information proving I was in error.
Thank you, Tim.
The “Christianity went through its violent phase with the Inquisition & Crusades; Islam is 600 years behind” defense is ridiculous on its face!!!
It assumes that every religion follows the same story arc, regardless of what’s going on in society. We should be able to look at a chart and figure out when each religion has its “Terrible Twos” phase, its “Stormy Adolescent phase,” etc.
But wait, when was the Jains’ violent era…?
I came across this book, from my niece who got it as part of her degree. The title doesn’t really describe it. The author is a professor and was challenged by one of his students on something he said, so he looked further in to Islam, and found the big difference was that it is designed to be integrated into their lives. You don’t just accept Jesus, you see Allah in everything you do. This looks more fundamentalist to us, but I’m not so sure it is.
The other big difference is they don’t have a Pope. There’s no hierarchy to keep any kind of check on whatever wild version of Islam someone might come up with. This is the worst aspect of Protestantism. Combine that with the specific laws from the 7th century that are not tempered by all the translating and schisms like Christianity and Judaism, and it’s an ugly stew of theology.
For whatever reason, that manuscript is too small for me to see well… but I noticed it was a post 9-11 thing. At that time, I was married to an Orthodox priest and we were very involved in the Interfaith peace movement, so I got to know Muslims and began watching Islam.
The fascinating thing was that 9-11 actually resulted in a significant increase in American “reverts” (that’s what they call converts to Islam) in the few years immediately after the attack. Basically, 9-11 sparked curiosity about Islam, and American Muslims did a good job with the narrative: “The terrorists weren’t true Muslims, let us show you true Islam.”
For seekers dissatisfied with Christianity, Islam makes a lot of sense in many ways. There is no confusing Trinity, for one thing. Also, Islam is very heavy on daily action … praying 5 times a day, etc. And even though the terrorists did something awful, many Americans are so used to lackadaisical Christianity they were impressed that these people cared enough to do something so extreme.
I’ve watched a lot of videos and read a lot of testimonials by reverts, and a theme I’ve noticed is this:
“I never knew any Muslims until I met Aadia/Fareed at work. She/He was so nice. She/he brought me a Quran to read and it was so beautiful. The next weekend, I visited the mosque. They were so friendly. Three days later I recited the Shahada, and now I am Muslim! I am so happy! Alḥamdulillāh!”
Again and again, I see people becoming Muslim after a few weeks, or even days… which is much crazier than suddenly accepting Jesus. Most Americans have SOME knowledge of Christianity; it isn’t a completely foreign belief system. And, I don’t think these people realize that, literally, the penalty for leaving Islam is capital punishment (THEN hell. At least with Christianity, it’s “just” hell…which is imaginary.)
You don’t just accept Jesus, you see Allah in everything you do. This looks more fundamentalist to us, but I’m not so sure it is.If by "Fundamentalist" we mean strict adherence to a text, then actually Islam is WAY more Fundamentalist than any form of Christianity, for reasons I explained earlier.
Shortly after 9-11, I began learning all I could about Islam. I got an English version copy of the Quran and “Islam for Dummies”, a few other books. Then I got online (I think it was with AOL back then) and joined a posting forum much like this but it was basically manned and womaned by mostly American (tho not all American) Muslims who were available to ask questions of (about Islam). I stayed with that forum actively and steadfastly for a few months, maybe more. Tee’s impressions about that time and since, seem correct to me.
I think one major difference with Islam is that there is often real-world punishment for your actions against the faith. You don’t have to wait for some bogeyman to come get you after you die, your father might cut your nose off, your brother might murder you “for honor”, your uncle might beat you within an inch of your life. Any one single person in your community might decide it’s okay to do you serious harm. Literally everyone around you is your judge, deciding your fate and carrying out the punishment that individual believes appropriate. That’s even true for some Muslims in America, though I’m sure the potential punishments are much less extreme here.
If you walk into a Christian church and say, “Jesus was a 30 year old virgin who hung out with a dozen men. He was definitely gay” there’s a good chance there’s going to be some fear in your eyes in just a moment. There’s a chance you’ll get a beating. There’s a very small chance you’ll get killed. But do the same thing in a Mosque about Mohamed and the chances of physical violence, severity of physical violence and potential for death increase, possibly to the point of absolute certainty, depending on which Mosque you walked into. The Christians are usually happy with “God is going to get you” while the Muslims are more a “WE are going to get you” people.
And I think that’s the major difference. For Christianity punishment comes primarily in the afterlife. Many still want to punish you personally. They want our laws to dole out God’s punishments in the real world. But ultimately they see that as not their decision. In Islam punishment comes now. It’s not their decision either because it is their duty. Islam isn’t about waiting for God to sort them out.
Thanks, @Timb. That’s good to know.
1/2
I think one major difference with Islam is that there is often real-world punishment for your actions against the faith. You don’t have to wait for some bogeyman to come get you after you die...Literally everyone around you is your judge, deciding your fate and carrying out the punishment that individual believes appropriate…
And I think that’s the major difference. For Christianity punishment comes primarily in the afterlife. … In Islam punishment comes now. …Islam isn’t about waiting for God to sort them out.
Exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. You have articulated this SO well, thank you!!
And I know that YOU know this, but I will say it just to make sure it’s said: These horrible (and obligatory) punishments – the lashings, the amputations, etc – under Sharia law are theoretically applied only by Muslims TO Muslims. So American Bill, who lives in America, doesn’t need to worry that his neighbor Raatib will break into his bedroom some night and flog him because he’s having an affair. That’s not how it works.
But it’s still an extremely disturbing theology… particularly when you can be proclaimed a “Muslim” at birth, and apostasy is punishable by death.
That’s why I say the biggest victims of Islam are Muslims, untold numbers of whom are literally held hostage by the faith.
2/2 Here’s where things get sticky.
The reality of Sharia law is that not even Islamic countries apply it fully, AND that there are various interpretations of it – some much more “liberal” than others. That said, though, given how extreme it seems to us, the amount of support for Sharia BY Muslims worldwide seems astonishing. According to PEW:
And yes, there are Anerican Muslims who do want Sharia here. But Sharia is a MASSIVE code of law, involving banking, inheritance etc. It isn’t all about whippings and beheadings. So Anerican Right-Wing concern about “Creeping Sharia” IS out of proportion. But it also isn’t COMPLETELY illogical. I don’t know the exact right amount we should be concerned about it.
American Muslims are fairly liberal compared to Muslims worldwide…see this PEW poll on homosexuality:
But the real concern isn’t about Muslims who choose to come HERE, since many who do are attracted to the US because it IS Liberal. The big threat is native-born Americans who “revert” to Islam because America is too permissive.
Re. the issue of Islam, overall, worldwide, I highly recommend this piece:
The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategy—and for how to stop it.AP / The Atlantic
GRAEME WOOD
MARCH 2015 ISSUE
The writer received an ENORMOUS amount of blowback. I think this was the most controversial piece ever published in the Atlantic.
However, from a theological/doctrinal viewpoint, I believe Wood is correct. It’s simply not true to claim “ISIS has nothing to do with Islam.” It has everything to do with Islam.
Last, I happened across this last night and wanted to share it. It’s important for those of us who really DO have great concerns about Islam, but also realize that individual Muslims must be afforded the same respect as anyone.
I have posted YouTube videos by both Genetically Modified Skeptic and Cosmic Skeptic, both young, brilliant, articulate former Christians, now atheists, who are liberal and oppose the religion of Islam because they are liberal. (Unlike some others who also share our view, both are exceptionally respectful about it.)
Here is a new one by Genetically Modified Skeptic on the issue of “Taqiyya.” A lot of materials critical of Islam make it sound like Taqiyya is “lying to spread the faith” and suggest everyday Muslims do it all the time. (In the wake of her apparent extramarital affair, Right-Wingers have accused Rep. Ilhan Omar of Taqiyya for lying to the public in order to spread Islam.)
That is not what the term means, AND it is a theologically obscure element in certain schools of Islam that most Muslims have never even heard of…
Oh. So DJT may be a secret Muslim who is stuck in Taqiyya. He lies in order to save himself from political discomfort. It is allowed for him to lie for any reason at all. Shias facing death for their beliefs got nothing on DJT doing some Taqiyya 24/7.
But seriously, I had not heard of it.
Tee; You kind of tipped your hat to there being versions of Sharia law, including liberal interpretations, but then went on with lots of concern. Pew was careful to break that definition out into an easy to find highlighted box here. From the numbers were looking at, it’s really hard to tell what people are thinking. I suspect many of them are no more harmless than the average American who says they believe in the 10 commandments or the philosophy of Jesus, without really knowing much about what they mean.
Yep.
I scanned about 4 Pew studies to find a poll on how American Muslims feel about Sharia law, and could not find one. I think I recall a UK study asking British Muslims that, and a higher-than-expected percent said they favored it, but then there was concern about the way the question was worded.
I agree with you – without knowing exactly what Muslims mean by “Sharia law,” such a poll may be meaningless. But I still wanted to find one.
I suspect many of them are no more harmless than the average American who says they believe in the 10 commandments or the philosophy of Jesus.I feel like I'm always walking a balance beam when I discuss this, because on one hand I agree with you but on the other hand, I think you're wrong.
While I don’t want to give the Right Wing paranoia any ammunition, I think comparing what Muslims think of Sharia, with what Chrristians and Jews think of the 10 Commandments and the teachings (good or bad) of Jesus, falls into that “false equivalency” I’ve mentioned before.
Even in its most liberal interpretations, Sharia Law is a completely different animal than the other two.
PS @Lausten
Also, to be clear, when I say “Even in its most liberal interpretations, Sharia Law is a completely different animal than the other two,” I mean this has always been the case. I mean that Sharia always fulfilled a very different function in Islam than the 10 Commandments or Jesus words ever did in Christianity.
On a side note, where you guys aware that the Ten Commandments that the Bible spells out as being etched on the stone tablets are very much NOT the ten everyone knows? There is only one place in Exodus which mentions the stone tablets and specifically calls them “the Ten Commandments”, and they’re not the ten you know. One is not to seethe a kid in its mother’s milk. The others are equally stupid.
Also, Jehovah’s Witnesses are into numerology. If you want to make a Witness nervous just point out that, if you take the Maccabees as a single book, the protestant movement removed SIX books from the bible, leaving SIXTY SIX, meaning that the protestant movement is blatantly stamped with the mark of the beast as the thing the beast is using to lead people astray from the righteous church of God. You’ll get a serious look of worry over that one before they look it up and then come back and…never mention or think about it again.