Well, that settles it. I think we can all agree that islamophobia is a good thing as long as directed at those who really deserve it — 98% of Muslims.
But one guy you. You advocate for the banning of all Muslims good and bad.
@thatoneguy said
Well, that settles it. I think we can all agree that islamophobia is a good thing as long as directed at those who really deserve it — 98% of Muslims.I'm not sure what you're saying.
Are you saying, sarcastically, that 98% of Muslims should, in fact, be feared?
If so, that’s not what I’m saying at all (if you were referring to what I wrote).
Can you rephrase? Who are you referring to?
“Islamophobia” should refer to an irrational fear of Islam, or Muslims. And there IS such a thing.A fear of Islam and a fear of Muslims are two entirely different things not even remotely related. It's okay to hate Islam, a religion with some very dubious interpretations leading to all sorts of horrific human rights violations. It is NOT okay to hate "Muslims", an general group of people which includes people from all walks of life from downright decent folks who wouldn't ever harm anyone to hard line extremists who would kill babies they disagreed with if they got the chance. I can see a fear of Muslims being irrational, but a fear of Islam is very rational.
This is the problem with the word “Islamophobia”. It means everything to everyone and nothing to anyone. It’s another one of those undefined words which people think has an “obvious” meaning. Then the person next to them says, “I agree! It’s absolutely obvious!” Until they learn that they don’t have the same definition and, as a result, have very different views.
I do agree, a fear (hatred would be a better word here) of Muslims is very real, very irrational and very often racially motivated. But Islamophobia is a fear of “Islam”, not a fear of “Muslims”. And even if it weren’t it’s STILL a made up thing. You choose to be Muslim. It’s not something you’re born with. It’s not something you can’t escape even if you want to. Just stop being Muslim. You can’t stop being of Jewish ethnicity, which is why antisemitism is “real”, why it is a real problem. But you can stop being Muslim, you can stop being Christian, you can stop being atheistic. That’s why there’s no such things as atheophobia, no such thing as Christiophobia and no such thing as Islamophobia.
By nature a fear or distaste for a belief simply cannot be “irrational”. To say it is would be holding the beliefs and opinions of one group over opposing beliefs and opinions. In this case to say that a fear (again, hatred or dislike would be better words here) of Islam may be “irrational” is to say that Islamic beliefs hold some intrinsic value that opposing beliefs do not. You are saying that there is a right to hold Islamic beliefs but no such right to hold those beliefs in disdain. In short you are claiming that those beliefs are “more right” than opposing beliefs, which is never true. When it becomes true the “beliefs” in question become facts.
You choose to be Muslim. It’s not something you’re born with. It’s not something you can’t escape even if you want to. Just stop being Muslim.This is the only point on which I disagree, even though I agree with what you are attempting to say.
You are right – religion is something people choose, vs ethnicity and skin color, which they do not. You are right that cognitively, no one is “born” any religion.
However, on a different level… One of the things that makes Islam uniquely dangerous is that it is the only world religion that:
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Includes a baby born of either a Muslim father or mother as automatically Muslim, and
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Requires capital punishment of apostates. (Christianity warns of hell after death. But Islam actually demands that Muslims kill people who leave the faith.)
So according to Islam, you are born Muslim, and you are under threat of death if you leave it. Even people in the US fear for their lives from relatives.
That is why I say that Muslims are the greatest victims of Islam. We cannot know what percentage of them were born into the religion and are literally held hostage by it.
But on another
I have to d
Widdershins, you keep assuming too much about what is going on in other people’s heads. I can talk to people and find that their fear of Islam is either rational or irrational. There is nothing intrinsic about a fear of something that would allow you to say it is one or the other without knowing why the person has that fear.
Widdershin said,A fear of Islam and a fear of Muslims are two entirely different things not even remotely related.
I agree, however it must also be said that a Muslim has a certain obligation to follow the word as “written” in scripture. Sometimes on threat of “death to the apostate”.
I am absolutely sure that there are just about the same distribution of fundamentalist in all religions. That does not alter the fact that fundamentalist Islam does infect the environment of the more moderate minds. For one, there is a fear of protesting against certain proscribed “commands” in the Qu’ran. This prevents a healthy discussion of the changing times and knowledge that must be applied to all scripture.
For instance; two popes have declared Darwinian Evolution to be true. But no changes have been made to the bible to reflect this new knowledge (since these scriptures were written).
A very interesting research source is “Skeptic’s Annotated Bible” (OT, NT, Quran, Book of Mormon)
https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
I am absolutely sure that there are just about the same distribution of fundamentalist in all religions. That does not alter the fact that fundamentalist Islam does infect the environment of the more moderate minds.I wish I weren't in a hurry tonight, so I could devote more time to an answer. But I'm swamped. Instead, I will repost a short explanation I wrote in Quora, explaining why Fundamentalism in Islam is different from Fundamentalism in Christianity:
BTW, the guy that does the skeptics bible and dwindling in unbelief is amazing. He has put more time into this than most clergy have.
I’m not sure what you’re saying.Are you saying, sarcastically, that 98% of Muslims should, in fact, be feared?
If so, that’s not what I’m saying at all (if you were referring to what I wrote).
Can you rephrase? Who are you referring to?
I was kidding, although it is a good idea to be wary of Islam in America as culturally alien and quite important to most of the people who practice it — including the “moderates”.
What is a moderate?
Everybody, this:
He says, “How do we define what true Islam or true any religion is? Do we interpret the Koran ourselves, proclaim the interpretation to define Islam and then say any idea outside of that isn’t Islamic? No, that’s how those who think scripture is divinely inspired define Islam.”
I’ve been trying to say that for years, to the people who are doing that. Most atheists I say it to say I come across as if I’m apologizing for religious behavior. I usually have to explain and convince them that I am atheist after saying it. The best I can get to is some sort of “yeah but”, like yeah but, I’m talking about the ones who are fundamentalist, and do cause problems, or do interpret the way I say they do. It pretty much lowers my faith in humanity having those conversations.
His answer is, that it’s supposed to be God’s word, so we shouldn’t need to understand the historical context. But when did it become God’s word? That’s said several times in the assembled Bible, but none of the authors in there knew the Bible would be assembled like that!
Widdershins, you keep assuming too much about what is going on in other people’s heads. I can talk to people and find that their fear of Islam is either rational or irrational. There is nothing intrinsic about a fear of something that would allow you to say it is one or the other without knowing why the person has that fear.Obviously, yes, I do that sometimes. But I don't think I did it here. When I said that it was the nature of belief that a fear of it could not be irrational I was not making assumptions based on what was in people's heads. Rather I was making the assertion that all beliefs are equally valid and equally invalid because they are beliefs, not facts. Islam is not based on rationality, it's based on a story one is told. So it is not "rational", but neither can I say it is "irrational" simply because I don't agree with it. The same is true for any belief.
It is not for any one of us to decide which beliefs are rational and which are irrational unless we have facts which are counter to the belief. If you believe canned tuna is really made from kidnapped Martians and I show you the process of catching tuna and putting it into a can, and you then still hold the belief, THEN I can claim it’s irrational because it is contrary to the facts. But when it comes to belief (Islam is good) vs belief (Islam is bad), neither is rational nor irrational until you can prove it. Which yes, if one belief is based on facts, you can. But that wasn’t the point I was making.
I’ve been trying to say that for years, to the people who are doing that. Most atheists I say it to say I come across as if I’m apologizing for religious behavior. I usually have to explain and convince them that I am atheist after saying it.This drives me nuts in all kinds of debate (and writing). I tend to be fairly good at articulating others' views and beliefs, whether I agree with them or not; when I was working, I was often told I was "the only reporter who has ever quoted me correctly" or told "You did a great job explaining my idea!"
So I’m often the one who explains WHY Evangelicals say this, or WHY Jews think that… and I have to provide qualifications again and again.
@lausten THANK YOU for the video! I wanted to attend that. I hope to another time.
INDEED, HE MISSED YOUR POINT BY A MILE.
Yes, I have heard Dan speak and I have read “Losing Faith.” He’s a smart dude (not brilliant, but smart). Your mistake was in asking HIM this question. He was a Pentacostal. His bio:
Barker received a degree in religion from Azusa Pacific University and was ordained to the ministry by the Standard Community Church, California, in 1975.Remember that Pentecostals are low-church. Along with many Evangelicals, Baptists, etc, they really do see the Bible as "a book" that is a cohesive work. Then some of them realize it isn't, and all goes to hell. So YOUR question was outside HIS particular paradigm.
If you want an answer to that question, you need to ask a current or former traditionalist Christian – Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic. Any Protestant has been taught people CAN just interpret the Bible, for himself … that’s kind of the point, so the context is not as important to them.
I am enjoying reading the back and forth on this topic, but I don’t know. Let’s look at a similar word, “homophobia”. That’s obviously a real thing, and it’s not ethnic. It’s not even religiously based. It’s hatred aimed at people for following a certain lifestyle choice, whatever their race, sex, or religious/philosophical creed. In my experience a lot of the people who I would describe as “homophobic” don’t hate gay people all that much, they just hate the IDEA of gay people existing. They hate gay pride celebrations, they hate seeing gay characters on television. What they really want is for the world to go back to the way it “used to be”, when gays stayed in the closet where they didn’t have to know they existed.
Is “Islamophobia” something similar? Not so much a reaction to terrorism as a reaction to the world once again not being the way it “used to be”, when religious freedom in America just meant that everyone was free to attend the Christian church of his or her choice.
Tuna is made from kidnapped Martians? I eat a lot of tuna. Tell me more about this fascinating notion.
So it is not “rational”, but neither can I say it is “irrational” simply because I don’t agree with it. The same is true for any belief. -- WiddersYou're playing too much with the words here. Belief is not something that you choose to have arbitrarily. The Martian tuna is an example to help illustrate how we all apply our rational minds to situations, but it doesn't compare to situations that we are immersed in from childhood. Think more along the lines of the complex stories people have about how they worked through their belief in Santa Claus. Becoming an independently thinking adult after being a totally dependent child is a process, and some people don't get the full program, some get purposely withheld from parts it.
Beliefs are formed over time and they inform our day to day actions. If we didn’t have them, we’d have to stop and work out every step we take.