Humanist Trilogy

[write4u]

@pointpath

for this theory suffice it to say all humans are apes but all apes are not humans.

Exactly!

Moreover, it seems that the mutation was also causal to acceleration in the evolutionary development of human intelligence, assuming that all other apes have followed a more leisurely evolutionary path.

That would lead to the conclusion that the acquisition of chromosome 2 in humans was responsible for the accelerated growth of a complex brain.

If true this might be one of the “hard facts” Tegmark recommended as an approach to the study of consciousness and intelligence, rather than begin by trying to explain the “hard problem”.

[lausten]

@pointpath

All that’s necessary for people to use their existing DNA information is to be aware that it exists.

I’m no expert, but this doesn’t make sense. We have been unaware of our DNA for most of our existence. I don’t “feel” it, no matter how I visualize it. I don’t use it in anyway that fits the definition of “use”.

[mriana]

While all that you say about DNA, pointpath, is true, it’s not the end all and be all to being human. There is far more to being human than just DNA.

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

@citizenschallengev4

Write, this inability to incorporate Evolutionary reality into our philosophizing is another one of those ‘tells’ for the Abrahamic Mindset that’s too wrapped up in its own desires and needs to acknowledge what’s beyond our sphere.

Think of what you’re saying here.
I am the one who related the fact that the split of humans from the common hominid tree was clearly demarcated in the chromosomal mutation in a common hominid ancestor that resulted in the creation of homo sapiens.

This isn’t so much about denying Evolution, or acknowledging that Evolution happened.

It about really appreciating the complexity - deep down, having grappled with what the expanse of 4 and a half billions year actually means.

You keep turning it back on yourself, but I’m talking about the general community of talking heads and physicist philosophers and lectures with all their wild notions that seldom incorporate evolution into their thoughts. Lip service, superficial and then left behind.

You come up with these arguments that dodge the issues I’m trying to bring forth, you share factoids that are fascinating, that I don’t dispute and should be part of anyone’s understanding.

But the reality is that we as a people, as a global community, are incapable of seeing past our own wants and needs. If the state of the world doesn’t make that self-evident to you, I don’t know what to say. We are disconnected from all that keeps us alive, it’s killing us and getting worse - our understanding is built upon our own self-conceit, it’s how we are built. That is worth examining.

The rational leftie crowd seems tongue tied and impotent - as soon as someone waves their GOD FEARING FAITH FLAG in our faces, oh it’s their faith, it’s sacred, can’t say nothing against that. Most shut down. That needs to stop. Rationalists, people who believe in honesty and constructive learning, need to get a real handle on the grand sweep of life and those age old questions,
… why are we here, what’s the point, why should I care, what will happen to me.

For instance,
The story of Jesus’ Passion is easily told within the scope of our own lives - it’s not about ever lasting life after death, it’s about recognizing our living burdens and failures and finding a rebirth based on lesson learned. Better than before (older and wiser and all that) having endured our own Passion Plays as life’s trials and tribulation visit us.

That’s not about being religious. It’s about acknowledging the religion and faith in others and figuring out how to help clarify the story for them it in a constructive way. Our Gods are of our own making, and it could be good, if we could recognize it for what it is and respect the other.

To recognize the boundaries of our ability to know seems like nothing but healthy to me.
What makes you so uncomfortable with what I’m trying to convey?

(7.01) An Alternative Philosophical Perspective - “Earth Centrism”

(7.02) Appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide

(7.03) Being an element in Earth’s Pageant of Evolution

(7.04) It’s not a “Body-Mind problem” it’s an “Ego-God problem.”

Trying my hand at corn, planted first two rows May 18th, three and four May 31st, and some reseeding yesterday.

[write4u]

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:44, topic:9547”]
You keep turning it back on yourself, but I’m talking about the general community of talking heads and physicist philosophers and lectures with all their wild notions that seldom incorporate evolution into their thoughts. Lip service, superficial and then left behind.

To me, it looks like are overlooking that the evolution of “intelligence” is probably the most astounding natural phenomenon imaginable.

I don’t really know what you are asking of me. My recognition that dynamic interaction of a set of pure chemicals (table of elements) can over time naturally self-assemble and transform itself into living biology is breathtaking.

You come up with these arguments that dodge the issues I’m trying to bring forth, you share factoids that are fascinating, that I don’t dispute and should be part of anyone’s understanding.

Factoids? Are you not seeing what I am doing? I bring clarity to what has been the greatest question of mankind and the cause for civilizations, religions , wars, peace.

I firmly believe that I am presenting compelling evidence that may actually contain the “greatest story ever told”, but based on a non-magical secular set of facts that identify the mechanism by which life and self-aware consciousness “evolved”.

Now you come along and tell me that what I present is trivial as compared to the “grander theatre”?
You are making declarations without presenting supporting facts. Which is great as a starting point, but eventually we need to get from “blind worship” to “clear knowledge”.

I am trying to assemble this knowledge and thereby create an evolutionary story that is not only majestic but also scientifically sound.

But the reality is that we as a people, as a global community, are incapable of seeing past our own wants and needs. If the state of the world doesn’t make that self-evident to you, I don’t know what to say. We are disconnected from all that keeps us alive, it’s killing us and getting worse - our understanding is built upon our own self-conceit, it’s how we are built. That is worth examining.

And that is precisely what I am trying to do! You cannot make changes without knowing knowing the cause of the problem and how to may begin a regimen of corrective action.

I have seen enough misery to consider myself very fortunate to have had the opportunity to travel and see the magnificent evolutionary creations in the world of fauna and its incredible feats of beauty in flowers and forest communities, to the simple reactive behavior of single-celled organisms to the first practice of agriculture and husbandry and the invention of flight by insects, to humans who are able to imitate and artificially copy all those natural wonders, including perhaps “intelligence itself”.

Unless we wipe ourselves out, humans are capable of conquering space. But the grand dreams must rest on the humility of knowing our roots.

Looking at all unfounded beliefs in magical goings-on in the workd, as far as I can tell we haven’t yet acquired the knowledge of our roots.

And what we have learned trough science has been so fractured by specialization that sight of the “wholeness” has been completely fractured and instead of cooperation, there is only competition to be the first to make a discovery.

I have the humility to begin at the beginning. And I am coming up with some fundamental “hard facts”, not trivia!

[pointpath]

@mriana

There is far more to being human than just DNA.

My understanding of the human genome is, that it contains the biological instructions to create your brain and the cells of your body, each containing a copy of your personal genome for ongoing signals between cells and your brain. (an example is you reading this)
Along with biologically creating your physical infant self, every experience of your personal humanity is encoded in your DNA. If you choose to believe in a learned religion, that becomes your personal outlook, and, that is fine, it’s what you believe to be true. It is the representation of who you think you are, found in your DNA.
Humans are born with sufficient DNA and brain connections called synapses to register every event or experience of “brain activity” in the genomic “database” of "yourself.

DNA of yourself in the human genome begins registering your humanitarian ideas and everything you have learned just before birth and until death.

It took 10 years to sequence the first human genome, but new machines get whole-genome sequence data from thousands of individuals in only a matter of hours.

It’s hard to overstate how dramatic DNA technology is. The scale of the data that now can be analyzed has allowed researchers to address a whole slew of new questions that would not have been possible with the previous technology of DNA.

None of what I am saying is solely my idea, it comes from my engagement with the scientific community of the evolving human species for over a decade.

Can you give a couple of examples of far more to being human than just DNA? Any example you can think of is because it’s already part of the DNA that represents yourself.

[lausten]

@pointpath

Can you give a couple of examples of far more to being human than just DNA?

Thoughts.

They are not in DNA. We haven’t mapped thoughts. DNA does not record thoughts.

[pointpath]

@lausten

I’m no expert,

I’m no expert by a long shot. For the most part, I am parroting what I glean from searching scientific topics about the advanced decoding of the human genome and human efficacies thereof.
To me, this concept of self makes perfect sense. It is a quantum leap in cognizance of knowing who you are. There is no data to input because your genome has been and still is chemically coding new DNA molecular structures; this is what most of us call our memory. I think that all of us including myself are occupying a space in time about 22 years after the CE.

What I am trying to do is help others in the forum understand the social realities of entering the digital age and casting the baggage of the CE so they can help others if a question comes up.

Blockquote

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I really believe that all humans can benefit from knowing their biological selves in terms of the DNA information of who they are, where they came from, and what they are supposed to be doing with their lives.
I know

[pointpath]

@write4u

To me, it looks like are overlooking that the evolution of “intelligence” is probably the most astounding natural phenomenon imaginable.

I am so sorry for giving that impression. I mean to cellabrate the evolution of “intelligence” that is what the DNA of your genome represents, the lessons learned by ancesters in your line of genetics.

[pointpath]

@lausten

DNA does not record thoughts.

Yes, I believe that random thoughts (chatter in your head) are ignored compared to actually learning something.

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

Factoids? Are you not seeing what I am doing? I bring clarity to what has been the greatest question of mankind and the cause for civilizations, religions , wars, peace.

Grand claim.

How are do microtubules bring clarity to the “greatest question of mankind and the cause for civilizations, religions , wars, peace.”?

@write4u

but based on a non-magical secular set of facts that identify the mechanism by which life and self-aware consciousness “evolved”.

Yet you keep looking at it as a one way street. Consciousness as a thing to study rather than a dynamic that can’t be truly be studies without appreciation the dynamic interaction with its environment that it is.

Or this Reality v Mindscape thing

@write4u

Now you come along and tell me that what I present is trivial as compared to the “grander theatre”?

No I’m not saying that at all! I am saying

Appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide.

That matters because? Well, for one, it leads to an inevitable understanding that our very existence is proof that our Universe and Earth unfolded down one, internally consistent cascade, and only one. No matter what we self-absorbed human creatures are capable of imagining.

@write4u

I am trying to assemble this knowledge and thereby create an evolutionary story that is not only majestic but also scientifically sound.

And I haven’t done that ?

Appreciating Evolution

But it requires more than microtubules:

{5a} The Most Beautiful Graph on Earth - A. Hessler

@write4u

And that is precisely what I am trying to do! You cannot make changes without knowing knowing the cause of the problem and how to may begin a regimen of corrective action.

And that is exactly what got me to thinking about human arrogance and the blindsidedness that haunts our every behavior - even much of science has demonstrated it’s not immune. Forcing assumption into the position of the “knowns” even when the evidence doesn’t line up at all. You know with Greece perfection or some such things.

@write4u

I have the humility to begin at the beginning. And I am coming up with some fundamental “hard facts”, not trivia!

@write4u

Looking at all unfounded beliefs in magical goings-on in the worked, as far as I can tell we haven’t yet acquired the knowledge of our roots.

Yeah, like the codification of our one-sided self-centeredness and inability to conceive of anything existing beyond ourselves, which the Abrahamic mindset exemplifies, in it’s religious and secular echos through the ages.

You are correct in calling me out, yes this tendency wasn’t anything invented by Abraham, its roots go well beyond that, I dare say it going back to our biology. But Abrahams’ descendants sure did carve them into our hearts and world outlook = extreme dualism and a knee-jerk rejection of all that’s outside their particular tribe.

This was written for someone else, but I’m hoping it might help you get a better handle of what I’m talking about:

… why didn’t you stop a moment to review the most fundamental fact of our human condition? A reality that cuts straight to the heart of both our so-called “Hard Problem of Consciousness” and the Origin of God question - namely the “Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide”?

What’s so special about having an appreciation for the “Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide”? Well, for one, it leads to an inevitable understanding that our very existence is proof that our Universe and Earth unfolded down one, internally consistent cascade, and only one. No matter what we self-absorbed human creatures are capable of imagining.

For me, it also brought into focus that Earth herself is my touchstone with reality. This in turn, led to a deep down realization that Earth’s biological processes created creatures and eventually humans along with our human mind. (This is undisputed by science and rational humans - correct?)

From there it becomes self-evident that our Gods are created from within our own minds and bodies, driven by biological, evolutionary and cultural experiences, the ebb and flow of life. Each one of our Gods tailored to our own particular personality and circumstance. Ignoring that, leaves us without a benchmark for sorting out our thoughts, as Donald Hoffman’s “Case Against Reality” flailing exemplifies.

The notion of Evolution is given much lip service, but it seems to me that it seldom rises above a post card superficiality. To recap: visit, Citizenschallenge: The missing ingredient in Daniel Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea"

[citizenschallengev4]

Sorry again too little time to really focus.

@write4u

And I am coming up with some fundamental “hard facts”, not trivia!

Can you list these 'hard facts."

[write4u]

@citizenschallengev4

And I haven’t done that ?

I have never accused you of not doing that, …OTOH , you are doing it to me!

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:52, topic:9547”]
Can you list these 'hard facts."

That is what I have been doing! I explained that Tegmark suggested to begin with listing “hard facts” instead of trying to philosophize the “hard problem” to which we don’t even know what question to ask. That approach will forever be mysterious because it does not address the substrate responsible for the data processing in the first place.

Microtubules are a “hard fact”. Consciousness is an emergent property of a pattern of information processing provided by the single common denominator in sensory data processing in all Eukaryotic organisms and that is the microtubule,

IMO, only by studying the MT network and how it responds to stimulation will inform us when and how consciousness emerges.

Even Heliotropism in plants is a result of microtubule production of action potentials in response to the position of the sun. Think about it?

Can you philosophize how plants think or do you examine how they can physically respond to the angle of the sunlight striking the leaves?

[mriana]

There is still more to being human than just DNA. Thoughts, as Lausten said, is one example. DNA doesn’t decide one’s environment or how others treat you, but then again, if one takes a walk in the woods and encounters a bear or a wolf, it is the DNA of the wolf or the bear that decides if you’re prey or not.

@pointpath

I really believe that all humans can benefit from knowing their biological selves in terms of the DNA information of who they are, where they came from, and what they are supposed to be doing with their lives.

There is more to knowing oneself than just knowing one’s DNA.

[pointpath]

@mriana

There is still more to being human than just DNA. Thoughts, as Lausten said, is one example.

Yes, and I agreed with Lausten, random thoughts, and idyl brain chatter is rightfully ignored as I understand, that they do not rise to the level of actually learning something.

[mriana]

@pointpath

they do not rise to the level of actually learning something.

Sometimes it does. You never know where thoughts can lead. These thoughts are also what makes us human.

[pointpath]

thoughts like those that make us human are in your DNA because your biological thought process put them there.
Mriana, I respectfully want to disengage from further discussion of the merits of scientific DNA.
It’s fine with me that you are right.

[lausten]

@pointpath

respectfully want to disengage from further discussion of the merits of scientific DNA

I think that would be good, because i know of no science that says DNA creates thoughts

[write4u]

@lausten

I think that would be good, because i know of no science that says DNA creates thoughts

Human DNA creates a very complex brain caused by a rare beneficial chromosomal mutation that joined two separate chromosomes and made one much larger chromosomes, apparently allowing for much more complex growth instruction.

[mriana]

They still do not create thoughts.