Why should women or men be concerned with earning the respect of those who are unwilling to accept and respect them as they already are?
It seems to me there is value in generally ignoring those who can’t or won’t accept us as we already are. Sure, whatever we are, some people won’t like it, that’s a given. So those people walk away and remove themselves from our lives, a wise move for them and a favor to us. And then what’s left are those who like us the way we already are.
This strategy of just being oneself and letting the chips fall where they may seems much wiser than trying to please everybody everywhere with an opinion about how we should be, an impossible task.
So let’s take the woman who dresses “inappropriately”. More conservative types of people may not approve, and turn their backs on this woman. Ok, so what? She’s clearly not trying to appeal to them anyway. Once all those who don’t approve walk away, all that’s left will be left are people who respect her for how she already is.
To flip the equation, some women in the world get judged and rejected for dressing very modestly. Why should a woman who feels most comfortable wearing a hijab concern herself with the judgments of those who find that “inappropriately” prudish? Why should she care? Why shouldn’t she respect herself enough to chart her own course?
The bottom line is that there is no way to win the “I must comply to win respect” game. The way to win respect is to not comply with the demands of others, chart one’s own course, and let the chips fall where they may.
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect. [Sentence for the spam Nazi.]I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb. Is it my impression or is all this being laid at the feet of woman? What about the media milieu we've created. If you aren't attractive, you get categorized as a looser. Of course, the worship of beautiful bodies is as old as,... , well, have you checked out Roman mosaics? Or the ancient Egyptian papyrus scroll-painting The Turin Erotic? Also it seems that you folks are trying to find some correlation between clothing and a lady's character - seems a bit whacked to me. Then again, what else can we expect from a society that's dedicated to facade over substance. What would you say about a man who walked into a classroom or a boardroom or a piblic venue dressed in a tight bikini swimsuit and nothing else? What would your assessment of his intellect be? (You would make an assessment whether you admit it or not.)
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect. [Sentence for the spam Nazi.]I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb. Is it my impression or is all this being laid at the feet of woman? What about the media milieu we've created. If you aren't attractive, you get categorized as a looser. Of course, the worship of beautiful bodies is as old as,... , well, have you checked out Roman mosaics? Or the ancient Egyptian papyrus scroll-painting The Turin Erotic? Also it seems that you folks are trying to find some correlation between clothing and a lady's character - seems a bit whacked to me. Then again, what else can we expect from a society that's dedicated to facade over substance. Why shouldn't it be "laid at the feet of women"? They're the ones deciding what to wear. Sensible women don't allow the media to dictate their clothing choices. I know many women who dress appropriately who are also affected by the media. Why do you suppose they don't mindlessly follow the media's ideas of clothing choices? Besides that, not all media push revealing clothing. [Spam Nazi line] Spam Nazi line] Spam Nazi line] Spam Nazi line]
Not sure what you think I was saying here,
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect.I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb. Is it my impression or is all this being laid at the feet of woman? What about the media milieu we've created. If you aren't attractive, you get categorized as a looser. Of course, the worship of beautiful bodies is as old as,... , well, have you checked out Roman mosaics? Or the ancient Egyptian papyrus scroll-painting The Turin Erotic? Also it seems that you folks are trying to find some correlation between clothing and a lady's character - seems a bit whacked to me. Then again, what else can we expect from a society that's dedicated to facade over substance. What would you say about a man who walked into a classroom or a boardroom or a piblic venue dressed in a tight bikini swimsuit and nothing else? What would your assessment of his intellect be? (You would make an assessment whether you admit it or not.) no denying there is a time and a place for everything. I'm mainly pointing out that the worship of beauty is nothing new. The ability to parlay one's sex appeal, to better survive, is part of our fiber going back to beyond humans. Oh and doing that does not require stripping down to a bikini, it's way more subtle than that.
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect. [Sentence for the spam Nazi.]I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb. Is it my impression or is all this being laid at the feet of woman? What about the media milieu we've created. If you aren't attractive, you get categorized as a looser. Of course, the worship of beautiful bodies is as old as,... , well, have you checked out Roman mosaics? Or the ancient Egyptian papyrus scroll-painting The Turin Erotic? Also it seems that you folks are trying to find some correlation between clothing and a lady's character - seems a bit whacked to me. Then again, what else can we expect from a society that's dedicated to facade over substance. What would you say about a man who walked into a classroom or a boardroom or a piblic venue dressed in a tight bikini swimsuit and nothing else? What would your assessment of his intellect be? (You would make an assessment whether you admit it or not.) I'd say he had an outrageous sense of humor and ask him out for dinner. :kiss:
Some women need to grow up.Never gonna happen. ;-) True....why did I even mention it? These are all insulting statements. A lot of men need to grow up too. Women come from men (fathers) also. They are loved and raised by men too. The future women are molded by both women and men of today. It is a matter of culture. Changing of it would need changes in the minds of men as well as women. For example, quite a few years back I found it disgusting to see the display of the little girl named JonBenet Ramsey, as a 'beauty queen', who made sexually attracting gestures. And that was quite acceptable in America, including no media pundits raising any issue with displaying a lovely child that way. It certainly was not JonBenet's fault; it was also not just her parent's fault, it was the fault of the prevailing culture. Changing that would take rational discussions and a lot of time. But some women don't seem to realize how they come over, not only to men but also to other women, when they choose to dress in an over-provocative way and think it is their moral right to do so regardless of what effect this has. They don't like the idea of being 'sexualized' yet encourage such attitudes by their own actions, and basically they want it both ways. They want to feed their vanity by looking 'sexy' and 'desirable' but at the same time want to be respected for their minds. It's quite a ridiculous point of view and yet again demonstrates how irrational some women, who seem to think they are always the victims in this, refuse to acknowledge their part, preferring to blame everyone else.Welcome to the world. Have you just recently started interacting with women? You seem surprised about this. No, but I have just recently started to write about them and the reactions thus generated come as no surprise at all. :smirk:
Why should women or men be concerned with earning the respect of those who are unwilling to accept and respect them as they already are? It seems to me there is value in generally ignoring those who can't or won't accept us as we already are. Sure, whatever we are, some people won't like it, that's a given. So those people walk away and remove themselves from our lives, a wise move for them and a favor to us. And then what's left are those who like us the way we already are. This strategy of just being oneself and letting the chips fall where they may seems much wiser than trying to please everybody everywhere with an opinion about how we should be, an impossible task. So let's take the woman who dresses "inappropriately". More conservative types of people may not approve, and turn their backs on this woman. Ok, so what? She's clearly not trying to appeal to them anyway. Once all those who don't approve walk away, all that's left will be left are people who respect her for how she already is. To flip the equation, some women in the world get judged and rejected for dressing very modestly. Why should a woman who feels most comfortable wearing a hijab concern herself with the judgments of those who find that "inappropriately" prudish? Why should she care? Why shouldn't she respect herself enough to chart her own course? The bottom line is that there is no way to win the "I must comply to win respect" game. The way to win respect is to not comply with the demands of others, chart one's own course, and let the chips fall where they may.As long as women are truly doing as they please and are not slavishly following some fashion house version of what women should look like.
I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb.Lois is probably referring to "book smarts". Women who dress "inappropriately" are socially smart and know exactly what they're doing. I don't know that I'd call that "socially smart" either. It isn't socially smart to disturb people. I think it can amount to abuse. If they had any sense they wouldn't do something to cause disturbance and discomfort. Even women can be disturbed by provocative dress and the effect it has on men. I, for one, don't like to see men provoked. It causes bad behavior in the men, which disturbs women, too. I prefer a calmer atmosphere in most venues, most especially in a classroom setting. Most women do it for an ego trip, knowing they will create a disturbance. That isn"t being socially smart in my opiniom. It's deliberately causing a disturbance and they are usually well-aware of what they are doing.Seems like you're describing a lack of social courtesy rather than social stupidity. If what those women do amounts to a disturbance, then it's a disturbance hardly anybody cares about. And ultimately they're successful in getting what they want.
Why should women or men be concerned with earning the respect of those who are unwilling to accept and respect them as they already are? It seems to me there is value in generally ignoring those who can't or won't accept us as we already are. Sure, whatever we are, some people won't like it, that's a given. So those people walk away and remove themselves from our lives, a wise move for them and a favor to us. And then what's left are those who like us the way we already are. This strategy of just being oneself and letting the chips fall where they may seems much wiser than trying to please everybody everywhere with an opinion about how we should be, an impossible task. So let's take the woman who dresses "inappropriately". More conservative types of people may not approve, and turn their backs on this woman. Ok, so what? She's clearly not trying to appeal to them anyway. Once all those who don't approve walk away, all that's left will be left are people who respect her for how she already is. To flip the equation, some women in the world get judged and rejected for dressing very modestly. Why should a woman who feels most comfortable wearing a hijab concern herself with the judgments of those who find that "inappropriately" prudish? Why should she care? Why shouldn't she respect herself enough to chart her own course? The bottom line is that there is no way to win the "I must comply to win respect" game. The way to win respect is to not comply with the demands of others, chart one's own course, and let the chips fall where they may.As long as women are truly doing as they please and are not slavishly following some fashion house version of what women should look like. It is neither a question of complying to win respect nor that of not following the prevailing fashion. Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue of not revealing too much of one’s body is a matter of getting people’s attention for what one thinks and does over how one looks. What one thinks and does, i.e., the contents of one’ character (to paraphrase M. L. King Jr.), are how people should be judged; and those would determine who is equal to or superior to whom.
Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issueIs that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree. It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy. We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can't handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them.
Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issueIs that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree. It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy. We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can't handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them. If your advice was for me, you must have read the opposite of what I actually wrote above. You apparently did not see the words "not" and "nor". I can certainly handle people dress for whatever great many reasons they may have, except when it is like treating women as valuable objects that must be guarded against men, the presumed criminals.
Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issueIs that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree. It is not, The game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy. We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can't handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them. If your advice was for me, you must have read the opposite of what I actually wrote above. You apparently did not see the words "not" and "nor". I can certainly handle people dress for whatever great many reasons they may have, except when it is like treating women as valuable objects that must be guarded against men, the presumed criminals.Excuse me, too many convolutions, my mistake. Which is why I won't touch that last sentence. No idea what you mean with it. No point in guessing.
Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issueIs that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree. It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy. We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can't handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them. The thing is, if everyone did as they pleased and not respect other people we would live in a chaotic world where almost anything went. It is only respectful to consider how you look in public because there are many different kinds of people that you come across and to 'do as you please' seems a bit selfish to me. It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted. What you do at private or at a party etc. is another matter, but here we are talking about imposing things on people, which is unacceptable in my view. These women who insist on being able to dress as they want never seem to worry about the rights of other people, only what they want.
Why should women or men be concerned with earning the respect of those who are unwilling to accept and respect them as they already are? It seems to me there is value in generally ignoring those who can't or won't accept us as we already are. Sure, whatever we are, some people won't like it, that's a given. So those people walk away and remove themselves from our lives, a wise move for them and a favor to us. And then what's left are those who like us the way we already are. This strategy of just being oneself and letting the chips fall where they may seems much wiser than trying to please everybody everywhere with an opinion about how we should be, an impossible task. So let's take the woman who dresses "inappropriately". More conservative types of people may not approve, and turn their backs on this woman. Ok, so what? She's clearly not trying to appeal to them anyway. Once all those who don't approve walk away, all that's left will be left are people who respect her for how she already is. To flip the equation, some women in the world get judged and rejected for dressing very modestly. Why should a woman who feels most comfortable wearing a hijab concern herself with the judgments of those who find that "inappropriately" prudish? Why should she care? Why shouldn't she respect herself enough to chart her own course? The bottom line is that there is no way to win the "I must comply to win respect" game. The way to win respect is to not comply with the demands of others, chart one's own course, and let the chips fall where they may.As long as women are truly doing as they please and are not slavishly following some fashion house version of what women should look like. It is neither a question of complying to win respect nor that of not following the prevailing fashion. Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issue of not revealing too much of one’s body is a matter of getting people’s attention for what one thinks and does over how one looks. What one thinks and does, i.e., the contents of one’ character (to paraphrase M. L. King Jr.), are how people should be judged; and those would determine who is equal to or superior to whom. I agree and your appearance is the first thing someone notices about you and I'm afraid human beings tend to make judgements on what they see, right or wrong. It can make a lasting impression.
It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted.Nonsense. It more like equivalent to your personal hang up thingie - and yes keep that volume down there are ordinances.
I agree as well. If women want to be taken seriously, then they should not dress like prostitutes. Women who want to be taken seriously don't dress like,prostitutes. If they do they won't be taken aeriously. You speak as if you think intelligent women don't know this and need a man to point it out. Women who want to be taken seriously know exactly how do dress. Women who want to be seen as prostitutes know how to dress as well. None of them need men telling them what's appropriate. There's a reason prostitutes dress the way they do. But, as a man, it's not really my place to point all this out. Then why are you pointing it out? Like so many things, it's the group itself that needs to self-regulate. They already do. If you don't like it, too bad. If women dress inappropriately they will pay the price. They don't need you to tell them to self-regulate or how to dress. I will add that I do feel sorry for young men these days, especially high school and college age. I've been to numerous college campuses over the years as my kids went through it, and my goodness I couldn't believe how girls dress nowadays (not all of course, and not even a majority, but way way more than when I was that age.) And I feel sorry for instructors too. Assuming you're a hetero male teacher who's honest, loves his wife, respects women, etc. my god that must be tough having to teach these prostiteens.If an instructor can't control his responses to teen clothing, he should find anither job where women are unlikely to disturb their sensibilities. Most schools have dress codes and most students have enough sense to dress appropriately. I do feel sorry for the teen boys who haven't yet learned to control their sexuality, but if they are so disturbed maybe they should go to a school for males only or one that has a more restrictive dress code such as a conservative Christian one. They are going to see women dressed provocatively outside the school. They need to learn how to control themselves. They shouldn't be expecting women to protect them from themselves. I haven't heard many young men complaining that girls are dressing too provocatively. LoisI'm discussing a topic in this forum, that includes men and women, for crying out loud. How about instead of your usual knee-jerk reaction, just take a comment for what it is. And especially ridiculous is the fact that I specifically said it's up to the group itself to regulate, not me. How you missed that baisc point is beyond me.
Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issueIs that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree. It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy. We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can't handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them. The thing is, if everyone did as they pleased and not respect other people we would live in a chaotic world where almost anything went. It is only respectful to consider how you look in public because there are many different kinds of people that you come across and to 'do as you please' seems a bit selfish to me. It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted. What you do at private or at a party etc. is another matter, but here we are talking about imposing things on people, which is unacceptable in my view. These women who insist on being able to dress as they want never seem to worry about the rights of other people, only what they want. You're right but that's how it is in a free society. I don't like to see tattoos on people. i think it's disrespectful. What do you think I should I do about it? [Spam Nazi line]
In fact, indecent exposure in public is punishable by law even in the very liberal states like Maryland and Massachusetts.Kinda puts it all in perspective doesn't it? It says there is a line somewhere. The argument is about where different people want to draw the line. It really isn't about anyone having the right to do what they want. That is already discounted in the law of many lands. As for respect v revealing, a recent article suggested that women showing more cleavage are seen as better bosses (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4677186/Women-cleavage-seen-better-bosses.html). Of course, the "news" story didn't give enough information to track down the article easily and every other story seems to refer to the Daily Mail article. However, the research articles on the topic seem very divided on the issue. Do we respect movie stars with skirt slits to their waists?
It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted.Nonsense. It more like equivalent to your personal hang up thingie - and yes keep that volume down there are ordinances. What's wrong with being sensitive to other people's feelings? Is this all about me??
Women should not need to dress in certain ways to get respect; nor should they need to avoid being fashionable to get respect. I think the real issueIs that you are an absolutist, possibly not knowing empathy, thus you fell in a position to treat your own opinions as some godly decree. It is not, the game of humans getting along and ahead in life will not following your fantasy. We dress how we dress for a great many reasons, if you can't handle how someone else is dressing, you ought consider the problem may well lie with you, and not them. The thing is, if everyone did as they pleased and not respect other people we would live in a chaotic world where almost anything went. It is only respectful to consider how you look in public because there are many different kinds of people that you come across and to 'do as you please' seems a bit selfish to me. It is the equivalent of playing loud music in public when it is not wanted. What you do at private or at a party etc. is another matter, but here we are talking about imposing things on people, which is unacceptable in my view. These women who insist on being able to dress as they want never seem to worry about the rights of other people, only what they want. You're right but that's how it is in a free society. I don't like to see tattoos on people. i think it's disrespectful. What do you think I should I do about it? [Spam Nazi line] I think you should come round to the idea that a free society needs to be seriously looked at. There have to be rules and rules that should be enforced.