Never gonna happen. ;-)
True....why did I even mention it?
These are all insulting statements. A lot of men need to grow up too.
Women come from men (fathers) also. They are loved and raised by men too. The future women are molded by both women and men of today. It is a matter of culture. Changing of it would need changes in the minds of men as well as women. For example, quite a few years back I found it disgusting to see the display of the little girl named JonBenet Ramsey, as a 'beauty queen', who made sexually attracting gestures. And that was quite acceptable in America, including no media pundits raising any issue with displaying a lovely child that way. It certainly was not JonBenet's fault; it was also not just her parent's fault, it was the fault of the prevailing culture. Changing that would take rational discussions and a lot of time.
But men, since they are hard wired to respond to women sexually are incapable of engaging in a rational discussion about sex. Men can't have it both ways.
Lois
Explicit display of your body is your right, no argument about that; but it could be an impediment to your quest/right to be equal to men.
Women don't have to quest to be equal to men, for they've been superior to men for a very long time. Men are physically superior, and so women had to become more intelligent than men to compete. Look at college graduation rates.
Explicit display of your body is your right, no argument about that; but it could be an impediment to your quest/right to be equal to men.
Women don't have to quest to be equal to men, for they've been superior to men for a very long time. Men are physically superior, and so women had to become more intelligent than men to compete. Look at college graduation rates.
I like your spirit. In fact, in my nine years of teaching at three US universities during the 1980s and 1990s, I have seen a lot of very smart and pretty young women as my students. But I can tell you that the smartest ones did not care as much about impressing people with their looks, let alone exposing too much of their body.
Men are physically stronger; but I would not call that superior. I recognize that we humans owe more to our foremothers than to our forefathers for our being on Earth.
I agree as well. If women want to be taken seriously, then they should not dress like prostitutes.
Women who want to be taken seriously don't dress like,prostitutes. If they do they won't be taken aeriously. You speak as if you think intelligent women don't know this and need a man to point it out. Women who want to be taken seriously know exactly how do dress. Women who want to be seen as prostitutes know how to dress as well. None of them need men telling them what's appropriate.
There's a reason prostitutes dress the way they do. But, as a man, it's not really my place to point all this out.
Then why are you pointing it out?
Like so many things, it's the group itself that needs to self-regulate.
They already do. If you don't like it, too bad. If women dress inappropriately they will pay the price. They don't need you to tell them to self-regulate or how to dress.
I will add that I do feel sorry for young men these days, especially high school and college age. I've been to numerous college campuses over the years as my kids went through it, and my goodness I couldn't believe how girls dress nowadays (not all of course, and not even a majority, but way way more than when I was that age.) And I feel sorry for instructors too. Assuming you're a hetero male teacher who's honest, loves his wife, respects women, etc. my god that must be tough having to teach these prostiteens.
If an instructor can't control his responses to teen clothing, he should find anither job where women are unlikely to disturb their sensibilities. Most schools have dress codes and most students have enough sense to dress appropriately. I do feel sorry for the teen boys who haven't yet learned to control their sexuality, but if they are so disturbed maybe they should go to a school for males only or one that has a more restrictive dress code such as a conservative Christian one. They are going to see women dressed provocatively outside the school. They need to learn how to control themselves. They shouldn't be expecting women to protect them from themselves. I haven't heard many young men complaining that girls are dressing too provocatively.
Lois
I agree with Lois, men should control themselves no matter what women wear. Women should not need guarding their body against men.
However, I think the issue of women revealing too much of their body to the extent of people paying more attention to that, as opposed to their ideas, is worth discussing.
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect.
[Sentence for the spam Nazi.]
Never gonna happen. ;-)
True....why did I even mention it?
These are all insulting statements. A lot of men need to grow up too.
Women come from men (fathers) also. They are loved and raised by men too. The future women are molded by both women and men of today. It is a matter of culture. Changing of it would need changes in the minds of men as well as women. For example, quite a few years back I found it disgusting to see the display of the little girl named JonBenet Ramsey, as a 'beauty queen', who made sexually attracting gestures. And that was quite acceptable in America, including no media pundits raising any issue with displaying a lovely child that way. It certainly was not JonBenet's fault; it was also not just her parent's fault, it was the fault of the prevailing culture. Changing that would take rational discussions and a lot of time.
But some women don't seem to realize how they come over, not only to men but also to other women, when they choose to dress in an over-provocative way and think it is their moral right to do so regardless of what effect this has. They don't like the idea of being 'sexualized' yet encourage such attitudes by their own actions, and basically they want it both ways. They want to feed their vanity by looking 'sexy' and 'desirable' but at the same time want to be respected for their minds. It's quite a ridiculous point of view and yet again demonstrates how irrational some women, who seem to think they are always the victims in this, refuse to acknowledge their part, preferring to blame everyone else. I think part of the main problem is the cultivation of 'victimhood', propagated by the feminist movement, that says women have always been the victims in the past and now have every right to do as they please, regardless of the consequences.
It's not only mothers and fathers who mold their kids but society at large that has a significant impact of young minds, especially nowadays, with the mass-media playing its part in shaping attitudes. The tendency to slavishly follow fashion has played a large part in how females dress because women tend to be more sensitive to how other women dress than men. We have seen this, for example, in the 1960's, when the mini-skirt made its appearance and the sudden exposure of young women's thighs in public become commonplace and anyone who raised any moral objections were labelled as 'squares' and out of touch with the times. It seems fashion trumps any other criterion in what is acceptable to wear in public.
It is indeed a women's issue much more than a men's.
If I complain about what color shirt you're wearing, or how much of your neck it reveals, who's issue it that? Yours? Or mine?
If you don't like what somebody is wearing....
Don't look at them.
Duh........
The female body is designed to be attractive to men and to openly expose it too much will only cause the wrong kind of reactions in men, leading to the sexualization of women. We're not so much talking about cloths here but the way some cloths expose and titillate by suggesting what is underneath. Striptease artists are adept at this by slowly suggesting what might be revealed by skillfully disrobing, thereby firing the imagination. To suggest that men (or indeed some women) can just 'turn off' their brain is not realistic. Also, sometimes, just one or two glimpses of a provocatively dress woman can lead to very strong sexual emotions and part of the problem is that many women just aren't aware of the powerful effect their appearance can have on (some) men.
I agree as well. If women want to be taken seriously, then they should not dress like prostitutes.
Women who want to be taken seriously don't dress like,prostitutes. If they do they won't be taken aeriously. You speak as if you think intelligent women don't know this and need a man to point it out. Women who want to be taken seriously know exactly how do dress. Women who want to be seen as prostitutes know how to dress as well. None of them need men telling them what's appropriate.
There's a reason prostitutes dress the way they do. But, as a man, it's not really my place to point all this out.
Then why are you pointing it out?
Like so many things, it's the group itself that needs to self-regulate.
They already do. If you don't like it, too bad. If women dress inappropriately they will pay the price. They don't need you to tell them to self-regulate or how to dress.
I will add that I do feel sorry for young men these days, especially high school and college age. I've been to numerous college campuses over the years as my kids went through it, and my goodness I couldn't believe how girls dress nowadays (not all of course, and not even a majority, but way way more than when I was that age.) And I feel sorry for instructors too. Assuming you're a hetero male teacher who's honest, loves his wife, respects women, etc. my god that must be tough having to teach these prostiteens.
If an instructor can't control his responses to teen clothing, he should find anither job where women are unlikely to disturb their sensibilities. Most schools have dress codes and most students have enough sense to dress appropriately. I do feel sorry for the teen boys who haven't yet learned to control their sexuality, but if they are so disturbed maybe they should go to a school for males only or one that has a more restrictive dress code such as a conservative Christian one. They are going to see women dressed provocatively outside the school. They need to learn how to control themselves. They shouldn't be expecting women to protect them from themselves. I haven't heard many young men complaining that girls are dressing too provocatively.
Lois
I agree with Lois, men should control themselves no matter what women wear. Women should not need guarding their body against men.
However, I think the issue of women revealing too much of their body to the extent of people paying more attention to that, as opposed to their ideas, is worth discussing.
So, in other words, it's all the men's fault. Why do women refuse to take any responsibility for this and conveniently place the onus on men? Most men do control themselves but this is not the issue. The issue is the way women are regarded when they prefer to be judged on the way they look rather than what is in their mind. I'm not, of course, not referring to all women because there are many women who do take a responsible approach to how they look, however, there still remains a 'culture' of inappropriate dressing in our society.
In the CFI forum, recently someone with a pseudonym posted a thread apparently to promote ‘wisdom’ of Islam. There he/she complained that Islam gets ‘bad press’, and questioned if there were ‘not some elements of Sharia law that we in the west (sic) would be wise to adopt’.
Among the ‘wisdom’ was ‘conservative dress for women’. After some discussions, the word ‘conservative’ changed to ‘modest’, and there was this question to me, ‘I’m wondering why you don’t think modest dress in public isn’t worth discussing.’
A point was raised that most women dress modesty in America. And the last claim that I saw there was that Muslim women dress modestly to ‘embrace the wisdom of Islam’.
Well, I do not see much wisdom in Islam; and am not interested in participating in that thread, as I believe our un-presidential President Donald Trump’s motto, “there is no such thing as a bad publicity", even though I am not really a fan of his. I am not willing to add to the publicity of ‘wisdom of Islam’ by putting counter-arguments either.
Now, should women dress modestly? Sure, I believe both men and women should dress decently. In fact, indecent exposure in public is punishable by law even in the very liberal states like Maryland and Massachusetts. “Modesty" is just a degree higher than “decency" in terms of covering one’s body. And most people in the world do dress modestly, irrespective of religious beliefs. Is the average Chinese, Japanese or Indian non-Muslim woman, for example, not modestly dressed? Surely, their modest dress has nothing to do with Islam or rather Islam has nothing to do with their modest dress.
That is all from me for now. Pletase feel free to discuss if women in the West reveal too much of their body, and how that impacts their equality with men.
I'm not saying western countries should adopt Sharia law by copying exactly the way many Muslim women dress. I was suggesting we could learn a thing or two about dressing modestly in the context of the culture we are talking about. It's really a question of trying to avoid extremes of dress that are designed to sexualize women and dishonor them. It should be a woman's mind and character that is admired, not their physical appearance. Many young girls feel they have to conform to the sexual images we see disseminated daily on TV, movies, billboards, the Internet, etc., to be appreciated. It is particularly the case that such images are used for profit in countries that are over-liberalized and that permit the exploitation of young and naive minds. This needs to change. Islam is an extreme example thst shows us that there are alternative lifestyles in the world where you do not have to dress provocatively to lead a full life.
That's your opinion, you're entitled to it as long as it's presented as opinion and you are not suggesting there be law passed against other people's opinions to force people to dress the way you think they should. Women have a right ro dress as they wish. Moviemakers etc. have as much right to show women in clothing you think is provocative as you have to express your opinion about it. The way someone dresses is a form of free speech--the same free speech rights you use to express your opinion. There are countless opinions in the US and the world that disagree with yours. Your opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's. Don't try to impose your opinions on other people and don't denigrate people who dress in ways you don't like and you'll get no criticism from me.
Lois
So you have no problem with the sexualization of women? LoisL,you can't have it both ways; if you want to be taken seriously for what is in your minds you can't expect to be taken seriously when you dress in a way that invites sexual titillation.
What women don't need is mansplaining. If we see a problem with the sexualization of women we are fully capable of handling it ourselves. If we think men have the answer we'll ask for it. So far we don't.
The fact you don't see a problem in the first place is a problem.
Explicit display of your body is your right, no argument about that; but it could be an impediment to your quest/right to be equal to men.
Women don't have to quest to be equal to men, for they've been superior to men for a very long time. Men are physically superior, and so women had to become more intelligent than men to compete. Look at college graduation rates.
I don't know much about that but if true might be because of the the promotion of women's place in society and the encouragement and support some female students receive. It does not follow that women are smarter than men; you always have to look at sociological factors also.
Explicit display of your body is your right, no argument about that; but it could be an impediment to your quest/right to be equal to men.
Women don't have to quest to be equal to men, for they've been superior to men for a very long time. Men are physically superior, and so women had to become more intelligent than men to compete. Look at college graduation rates.
I like your spirit. In fact, in my nine years of teaching at three US universities during the 1980s and 1990s, I have seen a lot very smart and pretty young women as my students. But I can tell you that the smartest ones did not care as much about impressing people with their looks, let alone exposing too much of their body.
Men are physically stronger; but I would not call that superior. I recognize that we humans owe more to our foremothers than to our forefathers for our being on Earth.
It does not detract from the fact that there is a problem with over-liberalized dressing practices. I notice you said 'foremothers'. Isn't this pandering to the feminist agenda?
I agree as well. If women want to be taken seriously, then they should not dress like prostitutes.
Women who want to be taken seriously don't dress like,prostitutes. If they do they won't be taken aeriously. You speak as if you think intelligent women don't know this and need a man to point it out. Women who want to be taken seriously know exactly how do dress. Women who want to be seen as prostitutes know how to dress as well. None of them need men telling them what's appropriate.
There's a reason prostitutes dress the way they do. But, as a man, it's not really my place to point all this out.
Then why are you pointing it out?
Like so many things, it's the group itself that needs to self-regulate.
They already do. If you don't like it, too bad. If women dress inappropriately they will pay the price. They don't need you to tell them to self-regulate or how to dress.
I will add that I do feel sorry for young men these days, especially high school and college age. I've been to numerous college campuses over the years as my kids went through it, and my goodness I couldn't believe how girls dress nowadays (not all of course, and not even a majority, but way way more than when I was that age.) And I feel sorry for instructors too. Assuming you're a hetero male teacher who's honest, loves his wife, respects women, etc. my god that must be tough having to teach these prostiteens.
If an instructor can't control his responses to teen clothing, he should find anither job where women are unlikely to disturb their sensibilities. Most schools have dress codes and most students have enough sense to dress appropriately. I do feel sorry for the teen boys who haven't yet learned to control their sexuality, but if they are so disturbed maybe they should go to a school for males only or one that has a more restrictive dress code such as a conservative Christian one. They are going to see women dressed provocatively outside the school. They need to learn how to control themselves. They shouldn't be expecting women to protect them from themselves. I haven't heard many young men complaining that girls are dressing too provocatively.
Lois
I agree with Lois, men should control themselves no matter what women wear. Women should not need guarding their body against men.
However, I think the issue of women revealing too much of their body to the extent of people paying more attention to that, as opposed to their ideas, is worth discussing.
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect.
[Sentence for the spam Nazi.]
I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb.
Well, before you flirt me up too much, I guess I should disclose I'm a 65 year old happily married man. However, I am wearing a revealing low cut T-shirt. I suppose I could turn my web cam on if you insist. :-)
In fact, in my nine years of teaching at three US universities during the 1980s and 1990s, I have seen a lot very smart and pretty young women as my students. But I can tell you that the smartest ones did not care as much about impressing people with their looks, let alone exposing too much of their body.
Ok, I have no complaint with anybody who wants to dress modestly, for whatever reason. That is after all none of my business.
What I'm pushing back against is this notion you're selling that 1) modest=good and revealing=bad and, 2) somehow this is a problem that's all about women exclusively.
Your argument seems to be that we men are too weak to control ourselves, and thus the burden falls on women to be responsible for controlling our bad behaviors. If this is true, you're making my point that women are stronger, and if it's false you're making my point that women are smarter.
To answer your question, my reply would be...
Yes, women should dress modestly, IF THEY WANT TO.
But no, women should not dress modestly because someone else is telling them to do so.
This is easy to understand. Are you going to wear what I tell you to where? Probably not, right? Ok, so don't push that trip on other people yourself. Simple!
Men are physically stronger; but I would not call that superior.
Yes, ok, superior is not a useful word here, agreed.
My point was that physical strength long gave men an advantage in the timeless negotiation between men and women, and that women overcame that advantage by becoming smarter than men.
One of their smarter strategies was to fog up men's brains with the use of revealing clothing, flirty glances, mysterious hints of what might be possible and so on. You recognize this power of women, and hope to defeat it by imposing male will upon them. I think you only have guilt tripping in mind, but some men will have public flogging in mind.
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect.
[Sentence for the spam Nazi.]
I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb.
Is it my impression or is all this being laid at the feet of woman?
What about the media milieu we've created.
If you aren't attractive, you get categorized as a looser.
Of course, the worship of beautiful bodies is as old as,... , well, have you checked out Roman mosaics?
Or the ancient Egyptian papyrus scroll-painting The Turin Erotic?
Also it seems that you folks are trying to find some correlation between clothing and a lady's character - seems a bit whacked to me.
Then again, what else can we expect from a society that's dedicated to facade over substance.
I agree as well. If women want to be taken seriously, then they should not dress like prostitutes.
Women who want to be taken seriously don't dress like,prostitutes. If they do they won't be taken aeriously. You speak as if you think intelligent women don't know this and need a man to point it out. Women who want to be taken seriously know exactly how do dress. Women who want to be seen as prostitutes know how to dress as well. None of them need men telling them what's appropriate.
There's a reason prostitutes dress the way they do. But, as a man, it's not really my place to point all this out.
Then why are you pointing it out?
Like so many things, it's the group itself that needs to self-regulate.
They already do. If you don't like it, too bad. If women dress inappropriately they will pay the price. They don't need you to tell them to self-regulate or how to dress.
I will add that I do feel sorry for young men these days, especially high school and college age. I've been to numerous college campuses over the years as my kids went through it, and my goodness I couldn't believe how girls dress nowadays (not all of course, and not even a majority, but way way more than when I was that age.) And I feel sorry for instructors too. Assuming you're a hetero male teacher who's honest, loves his wife, respects women, etc. my god that must be tough having to teach these prostiteens.
If an instructor can't control his responses to teen clothing, he should find anither job where women are unlikely to disturb their sensibilities. Most schools have dress codes and most students have enough sense to dress appropriately. I do feel sorry for the teen boys who haven't yet learned to control their sexuality, but if they are so disturbed maybe they should go to a school for males only or one that has a more restrictive dress code such as a conservative Christian one. They are going to see women dressed provocatively outside the school. They need to learn how to control themselves. They shouldn't be expecting women to protect them from themselves. I haven't heard many young men complaining that girls are dressing too provocatively.
Lois
I agree with Lois, men should control themselves no matter what women wear. Women should not need guarding their body against men.
However, I think the issue of women revealing too much of their body to the extent of people paying more attention to that, as opposed to their ideas, is worth discussing.
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect.
[Sentence for the spam Nazi.]
I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb.
It depends on how much is revealed. In my experience the women who dress most inappropriately are more likely to be less intelligent. Sensible women don"t flaunt their bodies in public. You may have had different experiences. IMO, when women wear clothing that is especially revealing in inappropriate venues (such as at school) it is an aggressive and abusive act. Despite what I've said about women's rights to dress as they please, I also think that many women deliberately try to disturb men with their revealing clothing choices and I think it's discourteous at the very least and can be seen as abusive. I am in favor of dress codes in schools and workplaces, but I don't think there should be civil laws passed controlling women's dress as is the case in conservative societies such as extreme Islamic ones. We in the West should not be trying to follow the lead of societies that are seen by most people in the world as extremely abusive to women.
Lois
Never gonna happen. ;-)
True....why did I even mention it?
These are all insulting statements. A lot of men need to grow up too.
Women come from men (fathers) also. They are loved and raised by men too. The future women are molded by both women and men of today. It is a matter of culture. Changing of it would need changes in the minds of men as well as women. For example, quite a few years back I found it disgusting to see the display of the little girl named JonBenet Ramsey, as a 'beauty queen', who made sexually attracting gestures. And that was quite acceptable in America, including no media pundits raising any issue with displaying a lovely child that way. It certainly was not JonBenet's fault; it was also not just her parent's fault, it was the fault of the prevailing culture. Changing that would take rational discussions and a lot of time.
But some women don't seem to realize how they come over, not only to men but also to other women, when they choose to dress in an over-provocative way and think it is their moral right to do so regardless of what effect this has. They don't like the idea of being 'sexualized' yet encourage such attitudes by their own actions, and basically they want it both ways. They want to feed their vanity by looking 'sexy' and 'desirable' but at the same time want to be respected for their minds. It's quite a ridiculous point of view and yet again demonstrates how irrational some women, who seem to think they are always the victims in this, refuse to acknowledge their part, preferring to blame everyone else.Welcome to the world.
Have you just recently started interacting with women? You seem surprised about this.
I agree as well. If women want to be taken seriously, then they should not dress like prostitutes.
Women who want to be taken seriously don't dress like,prostitutes. If they do they won't be taken aeriously. You speak as if you think intelligent women don't know this and need a man to point it out. Women who want to be taken seriously know exactly how do dress. Women who want to be seen as prostitutes know how to dress as well. None of them need men telling them what's appropriate.
There's a reason prostitutes dress the way they do. But, as a man, it's not really my place to point all this out.
Then why are you pointing it out?
Like so many things, it's the group itself that needs to self-regulate.
They already do. If you don't like it, too bad. If women dress inappropriately they will pay the price. They don't need you to tell them to self-regulate or how to dress.
I will add that I do feel sorry for young men these days, especially high school and college age. I've been to numerous college campuses over the years as my kids went through it, and my goodness I couldn't believe how girls dress nowadays (not all of course, and not even a majority, but way way more than when I was that age.) And I feel sorry for instructors too. Assuming you're a hetero male teacher who's honest, loves his wife, respects women, etc. my god that must be tough having to teach these prostiteens.
If an instructor can't control his responses to teen clothing, he should find anither job where women are unlikely to disturb their sensibilities. Most schools have dress codes and most students have enough sense to dress appropriately. I do feel sorry for the teen boys who haven't yet learned to control their sexuality, but if they are so disturbed maybe they should go to a school for males only or one that has a more restrictive dress code such as a conservative Christian one. They are going to see women dressed provocatively outside the school. They need to learn how to control themselves. They shouldn't be expecting women to protect them from themselves. I haven't heard many young men complaining that girls are dressing too provocatively.
Lois
I agree with Lois, men should control themselves no matter what women wear. Women should not need guarding their body against men.
However, I think the issue of women revealing too much of their body to the extent of people paying more attention to that, as opposed to their ideas, is worth discussing.
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect.
[Sentence for the spam Nazi.]
I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb.Lois is probably referring to "book smarts". Women who dress "inappropriately" are socially smart and know exactly what they're doing.
It is indeed a women's issue much more than a men's.
If I complain about what color shirt you're wearing, or how much of your neck it reveals, who's issue it that? Yours? Or mine?
If you don't like what somebody is wearing....
Don't look at them.
Duh........
The female body is designed to be attractive to men and to openly expose it too much will only cause the wrong kind of reactions in men, leading to the sexualization of women. We're not so much talking about cloths here but the way some cloths expose and titillate by suggesting what is underneath. Striptease artists are adept at this by slowly suggesting what might be revealed by skillfully disrobing, thereby firing the imagination. To suggest that men (or indeed some women) can just 'turn off' their brain is not realistic. Also, sometimes, just one or two glimpses of a provocatively dress woman can lead to very strong sexual emotions and part of the problem is that many women just aren't aware of the powerful effect their appearance can have on (some) men.
I think they DO know and that's why they dress provocatively. It's an ego trip, but a dangerous one.
I agree as well. If women want to be taken seriously, then they should not dress like prostitutes.
Women who want to be taken seriously don't dress like,prostitutes. If they do they won't be taken aeriously. You speak as if you think intelligent women don't know this and need a man to point it out. Women who want to be taken seriously know exactly how do dress. Women who want to be seen as prostitutes know how to dress as well. None of them need men telling them what's appropriate.
There's a reason prostitutes dress the way they do. But, as a man, it's not really my place to point all this out.
Then why are you pointing it out?
Like so many things, it's the group itself that needs to self-regulate.
They already do. If you don't like it, too bad. If women dress inappropriately they will pay the price. They don't need you to tell them to self-regulate or how to dress.
I will add that I do feel sorry for young men these days, especially high school and college age. I've been to numerous college campuses over the years as my kids went through it, and my goodness I couldn't believe how girls dress nowadays (not all of course, and not even a majority, but way way more than when I was that age.) And I feel sorry for instructors too. Assuming you're a hetero male teacher who's honest, loves his wife, respects women, etc. my god that must be tough having to teach these prostiteens.
If an instructor can't control his responses to teen clothing, he should find anither job where women are unlikely to disturb their sensibilities. Most schools have dress codes and most students have enough sense to dress appropriately. I do feel sorry for the teen boys who haven't yet learned to control their sexuality, but if they are so disturbed maybe they should go to a school for males only or one that has a more restrictive dress code such as a conservative Christian one. They are going to see women dressed provocatively outside the school. They need to learn how to control themselves. They shouldn't be expecting women to protect them from themselves. I haven't heard many young men complaining that girls are dressing too provocatively.
Lois
I agree with Lois, men should control themselves no matter what women wear. Women should not need guarding their body against men.
However, I think the issue of women revealing too much of their body to the extent of people paying more attention to that, as opposed to their ideas, is worth discussing.
Women with sensible ideas don't reveal their bodies. They have something to think about. It's women with empty heads who feel the need to reveal "too much" of their bodies--whatever "too much" is. They have nothing to display but their sexuality. The next time you see a woman revealing what you think is "too much" of her body, ask her how many branches of government the US has or who the Speaker of the House is. Her answer should tell you all you need to know about her intellect.
[Sentence for the spam Nazi.]
I agree, but I think it's a little naive to assume every woman who dresses in a sexy way is dumb.Lois is probably referring to "book smarts". Women who dress "inappropriately" are socially smart and know exactly what they're doing.
I don't know that I'd call that "socially smart" either. It isn't socially smart to disturb people. I think it can amount to abuse. If they had any sense they wouldn't do something to cause disturbance and discomfort. Even women can be disturbed by provocative dress and the effect it has on men. I, for one, don't like to see men provoked. It causes bad behavior in the men, which disturbs women, too. I prefer a calmer atmosphere in most venues, most especially in a classroom setting. Most women do it for an ego trip, knowing they will create a disturbance. That isn"t being socially smart in my opiniom. It's deliberately causing a disturbance and they are usually well-aware of what they are doing.
I don't know that I'd call that "socially smart" either. It isn't socially smart to disturb people. I think it can amount to abuse. If they had any sense they wouldn't do something to cause disturbance and discomfort.
Um, are you aware that men LIKE to see "inappropriately" attired women??? Discomfort???
That said, I think you have a point about revealing attire raising some danger. For example, if I had a daughter I wouldn't advise her to put on a really hot outfit and then head out for the bars. On the other hand...
I grew up in Daytona Beach, a major tourist town with 30 miles of beach you can drive on. It's a party town really, with spring break, NASCAR races and many other such festive events. You can drive 30 miles on the very crowded beach year round and see literally about a million people, men and women, who are all pretty close to being totally naked.
Point being, this is a HUGE population of "inappropriately" attired people which has been present for almost a century. I don't recall any outbreaks of mass rape or other such vast calamities. The problem I do remember was with young men who get drunk and then screw around on high hotel balconies, sometimes falling to their death.
I'm resisting this thread because it's all about what women should or shouldn't do. Notice the complete absence of any discussion about rich men who flaunt their wealth to "disturb" women.
I personally know a college age woman who was seduced by such a guy who took her around to his boat, his luxury apartment, his $100,000 car etc, had sex with her a few times and then dumped her flat with hardly a kind word of goodbye. Wham bam, but I can't be bothered to thank you mam. Many many lame rich guys do crap like this all the time. It's the very same thing as flashing some female flesh to get what you want, and nobody above seems to have the slightest bit of interest. Which means...
This is just a primitive sexist thread which merits some rigorous debunking.
Well, before you flirt me up too much, I guess I should disclose I'm a 65 year old happily married man. However, I am wearing a revealing low cut T-shirt. I suppose I could turn my web cam on if you insist. :-)
In fact, in my nine years of teaching at three US universities during the 1980s and 1990s, I have seen a lot very smart and pretty young women as my students. But I can tell you that the smartest ones did not care as much about impressing people with their looks, let alone exposing too much of their body.
Ok, I have no complaint with anybody who wants to dress modestly, for whatever reason. That is after all none of my business.
What I'm pushing back against is this notion you're selling that 1) modest=good and revealing=bad and, 2) somehow this is a problem that's all about women exclusively.
Your argument seems to be that we men are too weak to control ourselves, and thus the burden falls on women to be responsible for controlling our bad behaviors. If this is true, you're making my point that women are stronger, and if it's false you're making my point that women are smarter.
To answer your question, my reply would be...
Yes, women should dress modestly, IF THEY WANT TO.
But no, women should not dress modestly because someone else is telling them to do so.
This is easy to understand. Are you going to wear what I tell you to where? Probably not, right? Ok, so don't push that trip on other people yourself. Simple!
Men are physically stronger; but I would not call that superior.
Yes, ok, superior is not a useful word here, agreed.
My point was that physical strength long gave men an advantage in the timeless negotiation between men and women, and that women overcame that advantage by becoming smarter than men.
One of their smarter strategies was to fog up men's brains with the use of revealing clothing, flirty glances, mysterious hints of what might be possible and so on. You recognize this power of women, and hope to defeat it by imposing male will upon them. I think you only have guilt tripping in mind, but some men will have public flogging in mind.
When you had called women superior to men, and then I said I liked your spirit, you can say that I was flirting with you. Because, you were wrong, but aggressive. I am somewhat surprised that you are a 65 years old man. But I still like your spirit (wrong, but aggressively seeking women’s rights). Because I think for the human species the contribution of women outweighs that of men. However, the unfortunate fact of the matter is that even today in many countries in the world, women are treated like objects as opposed to humans. We can call those countries uncivilized, but they are members of the UN with support from the countries that are generally accepted as civilized.
On the issue of women dressing modestly, I have pretty much the same position as you do, except when it comes to the women in my life that I care about deeply; because I want them to be respected by all - women as well as men.
The strategy of fogging up men’s brains with the use of revealing clothing, flirty glances, mysterious hints of what might be possible and so on is not what will make women leaders and respected. That kind of strategy is actually quite old, and it is pretty much like a weak person trying to get some advantage from a strong person.
You are plain wrong when you suggest that I want men to impose their will on women to defeat their power. I do not think in that kind of terms. To me, men and women are not aliens to each other by any means; nor is it right to have a men-women rivalry. A stupid parent is likely to raise a stupid child. So, women being smart and respected is not just a women’s issue, as they give birth and raise men as well. It is in the interest of the human species to have their mother gender smart, respected and happy.