Hoping there are some hardcore feminists that can shed some light here. I’ve had kids in college for the last fives years, so far. So I’ve done the college tour thing as well as visited the colleges they attend. I’d say I’ve seen at least ten campuses. And I’ve noticed two things: 1) The number of girls attending has gone up, which is great, and 2) more and more of them dress like what I’d consider prostitutes. My wife says the term is prostiteens and she agrees with me on this point, so I don’t think I’m being some kind of stupid male.
So on the one hand it seems like a great thing that more young women are attending college, which IMO is one of the main ways they can achieve equality with men. OTOH, the way they dress turns them into sex objects, which is the exact opposite of the first goal, and one of the reasons women historically were “kept” unequal in male dominated societies.
Is there anything behind these trends? In my mind I see two opposing forces, one pro-women encouraging them to get an education and achieve, and another anti-women force trying to keep them back by encouraging them to give in to sexual objectification (subconsciously of course, through fashion mags and advertising, all these stupid reality shows, etc.)
Thoughts?
What the hell? Young women dressing to make themselves attractive sends you into paroxysms? You and your wife both need to get over it. That is the same thing my parents were saying about girls back in the late 1960s and early 1970s. You have turned into your father.
P.S. When my wife visited a college campus with me recently she was complaining they guys weren’t dressing as slutty as the girls.
Hoping there are some hardcore feminists that can shed some light here. I've had kids in college for the last fives years, so far. So I've done the college tour thing as well as visited the colleges they attend. I'd say I've seen at least ten campuses. And I've noticed two things: 1) The number of girls attending has gone up, which is great, and 2) more and more of them dress like what I'd consider prostitutes. My wife says the term is prostiteens and she agrees with me on this point, so I don't think I'm being some kind of stupid male. So on the one hand it seems like a great thing that more young women are attending college, which IMO is one of the main ways they can achieve equality with men. OTOH, the way they dress turns them into sex objects, which is the exact opposite of the first goal, and one of the reasons women historically were "kept" unequal in male dominated societies. Is there anything behind these trends? In my mind I see two opposing forces, one pro-women encouraging them to get an education and achieve, and another anti-women force trying to keep them back by encouraging them to give in to sexual objectification (subconsciously of course, through fashion mags and advertising, all these stupid reality shows, etc.) Thoughts?I think the feminist issue here is not how these girls choose to dress but how you are reacting to their fashion choices. Feminism and women's rights should not be contingent on how girls and women choose to present themselves. Your desire for them to meet your expectations before you can take them seriously is about you. They should not be required to seek your approval any more than you should be required to seek their approval, for mutual respect to exist between you and them. You have found your way in life and they are finding their way in their lives. They are young and exist is a society of their peers that you may not value, and don't wish to engage in. And, I'm with you there. This may all be more about age than feminism.
This has nothing to do with age, it is all about trying to impose one’s own values on others.
I agree with Darron. I think the problem is what you are seeing, not what they are showing. I have just graduated my two daughters from college and my son is in the middle of his college career so we two have been to dozens of colleges and done lots of college weekend visits at the three different colleges our kids have attended. I don’t ever recall having the reaction you describe to the way people ( women or men) dressed.
What is culturally acceptable in terms of dress obviously depends on what we were raised to believe. There is no universally acceptable definition of what constitutes “provocative” dress. In the mideast its provocative for a woman just to show her face. In some parts of the world a topless woman is not provocative at all. Our ideas change not only over geographical distance but over a distance of time as well. In the 50’s Lucy and Ricky had to have at least one foot on the floor when they were in there separate twin beds because to not do so was considered to risqué for TV. Any fan of modern day TV would laugh at how prude that concept seems.
What seems provocative and deserving of the derogatory “prostateen” label to some may simply be a sign that one is out of touch with modern norms. You may be reading a message in the clothing which isn’t actually there just as a visitor from a strict muslim country would if they saw naked faces on American streets.
So I’m hearing you say there’s no such thing as “the way prostitutes present themselves”? Is that what I’m hearing? And you’re saying there’s no such thing as women being presented (by themselves or by the various media for example) as sexual objects? That’s just something I’m making up in my own mind, never read articles about women as objects instead of people? All that’s just make believe? And to take this attitude to its logical extreme, I’m hearing you say there’s no such thing as pornography, since according to many of the posts here a magazine like Hustler is just displaying pictures of regular women naked or near naked etc. and me thinking of that as pornography is just me being “behind the times” or imposing my own norms on others?
I find this all hard to believe. And I think you guys are lying to yourselves and playing the “everything is relative” game a bit too well.
OH, And I notice all the posts have been from men.
Hoping there are some hardcore feminists that can shed some light here. I've had kids in college for the last fives years, so far. So I've done the college tour thing as well as visited the colleges they attend. I'd say I've seen at least ten campuses. And I've noticed two things: 1) The number of girls attending has gone up, which is great, and 2) more and more of them dress like what I'd consider prostitutes. My wife says the term is prostiteens and she agrees with me on this point, so I don't think I'm being some kind of stupid male. So on the one hand it seems like a great thing that more young women are attending college, which IMO is one of the main ways they can achieve equality with men. OTOH, the way they dress turns them into sex objects, which is the exact opposite of the first goal, and one of the reasons women historically were "kept" unequal in male dominated societies. Is there anything behind these trends? In my mind I see two opposing forces, one pro-women encouraging them to get an education and achieve, and another anti-women force trying to keep them back by encouraging them to give in to sexual objectification (subconsciously of course, through fashion mags and advertising, all these stupid reality shows, etc.) Thoughts?Not to worry. Every generation has always said the next one was going to hell and it hasn't happened yet. Both you and your wife need to take a drink an relax. The good old days are dead and gone and tomorrow is not going to be as bad as you think.
Times change, the older generation dies out and everyone laughs at how it used to be. When I was a kid my father (born 1908) told me about a woman of the town where he grew up who allowed two inches of her legs to show between the bottom of her dress and the top of her shoes. He said she was the talk of the town.
Lois
So I'm hearing you say there's no such thing as "the way prostitutes present themselves"? Is that what I'm hearing? And you're saying there's no such thing as women being presented (by themselves or by the various media for example) as sexual objects? That's just something I'm making up in my own mind, never read articles about women as objects instead of people? All that's just make believe? And to take this attitude to its logical extreme, I'm hearing you say there's no such thing as pornography, since according to many of the posts here a magazine like Hustler is just displaying pictures of regular women naked or near naked etc. and me thinking of that as pornography is just me being "behind the times" or imposing my own norms on others? I find this all hard to believe. And I think you guys are lying to yourselves and playing the "everything is relative" game a bit too well. OH, And I notice all the posts have been from men.I think you are looking at things too simply. You seem to believe that because prostitute dress a certain way and the women you know dress more conservatively then any woman who dresses in a more revealing fashion is "like a prostitute". Unless those college students are selling sex for money you are making an unfair comparison just as someone from Saudi Arabia would be unjustly accusing your daughter of being a prostitute if she walked in public with her face showing. Its not the manner of dress that determines who one is but their behavior. Using the term prostiteen is not just a description of the person's dress. When you use such a term you are making a derogatory value judgement about the person which you have insufficient information to make.
So I'm hearing you say there's no such thing as "the way prostitutes present themselves"? Is that what I'm hearing? And you're saying there's no such thing as women being presented (by themselves or by the various media for example) as sexual objects? That's just something I'm making up in my own mind, never read articles about women as objects instead of people? All that's just make believe? And to take this attitude to its logical extreme, I'm hearing you say there's no such thing as pornography, since according to many of the posts here a magazine like Hustler is just displaying pictures of regular women naked or near naked etc. and me thinking of that as pornography is just me being "behind the times" or imposing my own norms on others? I find this all hard to believe. And I think you guys are lying to yourselves and playing the "everything is relative" game a bit too well. OH, And I notice all the posts have been from men.Well, I responded and I'm a woman, though it might have been posted after you wrote this. Anyway, I know where you're coming from. I, too, wish young girls would not dress so lewdly. But I'm afraid we're the fuddy duddies now. Nothing is going to change because the older generation is offended. I wish young girls would realize that there are men out there who can't or won't control their sexual urges. It's politically incorrect to say that the girls should be more careful these days, so I guess nothing will change. Some girls will be attacked and it won't help them to take the position that they should never have to do anything to prevent the possibility that uncontrolled men will take their dress as permission to attack and that it's always 100% the attacker's fault. It is. I agree. Girls shouldn't have to do anything, but that idea isn't going to make them any less likely to suffer an attack and its results. Lois
… more and more of them dress like what I'd consider prostitutes. My wife says the term is prostiteens and she agrees with me on this point, so I don't think I'm being some kind of stupid male. So on the one hand it seems like a great thing that more young women are attending college, which IMO is one of the main ways they can achieve equality with men. OTOH, the way they dress turns them into sex objects, which is the exact opposite of the first goal, and one of the reasons women historically were "kept" unequal in male dominated societies. Is there anything behind these trends? In my mind I see two opposing forces, one pro-women encouraging them to get an education and achieve, and another anti-women force trying to keep them back by encouraging them to give in to sexual objectification (subconsciously of course, through fashion mags and advertising, all these stupid reality shows, etc.) Thoughts?What do you expect considering the media cascade kids are drenched with these days!? How else are young women supposed to dress, when they are weened on a steady diet of modern media, half the kids out there think emulating the latest squeeky teenie celebs with all their glitz and sexy allure is all there is in life. (cult of celebrates that all that superficiality crud) ~ ~ ~ But, perhaps there's also an unmentioned underlying unspoken tension going on here? You know, all those beautiful young bodies running around and the impact they have on minds/emotions/juices of old guys, ... and all that jazz. That ageless reality that we keep on getting a bit older but every year brings up a fresh crop of blossoming beauties, and they are as beautiful now as back when we were 16/18.
Hoping there are some hardcore feminists that can shed some light here. I've had kids in college for the last fives years, so far. So I've done the college tour thing as well as visited the colleges they attend. I'd say I've seen at least ten campuses. And I've noticed two things: 1) The number of girls attending has gone up, which is great, and 2) more and more of them dress like what I'd consider prostitutes. My wife says the term is prostiteens and she agrees with me on this point, so I don't think I'm being some kind of stupid male. So on the one hand it seems like a great thing that more young women are attending college, which IMO is one of the main ways they can achieve equality with men. OTOH, the way they dress turns them into sex objects, which is the exact opposite of the first goal, and one of the reasons women historically were "kept" unequal in male dominated societies. Is there anything behind these trends? In my mind I see two opposing forces, one pro-women encouraging them to get an education and achieve, and another anti-women force trying to keep them back by encouraging them to give in to sexual objectification (subconsciously of course, through fashion mags and advertising, all these stupid reality shows, etc.) Thoughts?Trouble reconciling slutty-seeming girls with educational achievement? First, sexual objectification is great, and it's always going to happen. Actually it depends how you define prostitute-like dress, because professional prostitutes dress well. If you're referring to the trend of girls covered in trashy tattoos and wearing unwashed revealing clothing with words like "juicy" printed on them, I agree, but thats what happens when the standards are lowered to the extent they are. Regarding girls attending college, hasn't that been happening for a while now? The truth is very few of these girls belong there, but many parents are willing to break themselves financially in order for their kids to get a worthless degree, it's just a form of keeping up with the joneses. It shouldn't be surprising that many of seem seem slutty....they are.
Personally, I think they should be able to dress as they please. It is their choice.
Regarding girls attending college, hasn't that been happening for a while now? The truth is very few of these girls belong there, but many parents are willing to break themselves financially in order for their kids to get a worthless degree, it's just a form of keeping up with the joneses. It shouldn't be surprising that many of seem seem slutty....they are.This is misogynistic nonsense. I just graduated from college and the young women with whom I attended classes could out think you without their morning coffee, even the ones who wore short shorts and base midriff tops to class. I think you could benefit from a "worthless degree." Or perhaps you believe degrees are only worthies when women get them.
Regarding girls attending college, hasn't that been happening for a while now? The truth is very few of these girls belong there, but many parents are willing to break themselves financially in order for their kids to get a worthless degree, it's just a form of keeping up with the joneses. It shouldn't be surprising that many of seem seem slutty....they are.Are you trying to imply that girls are somehow less intelligent and less deserving of a college education than boys? the fact that you made that comment and you are a male would seem to be evidence enough that men are no more intelligent than women and some are far less so.
Hoping there are some hardcore feminists that can shed some light here. I've had kids in college for the last fives years, so far. So I've done the college tour thing as well as visited the colleges they attend. I'd say I've seen at least ten campuses. And I've noticed two things: 1) The number of girls attending has gone up, which is great, and 2) more and more of them dress like what I'd consider prostitutes. My wife says the term is prostiteens and she agrees with me on this point, so I don't think I'm being some kind of stupid male. So on the one hand it seems like a great thing that more young women are attending college, which IMO is one of the main ways they can achieve equality with men. OTOH, the way they dress turns them into sex objects, which is the exact opposite of the first goal, and one of the reasons women historically were "kept" unequal in male dominated societies. Is there anything behind these trends? In my mind I see two opposing forces, one pro-women encouraging them to get an education and achieve, and another anti-women force trying to keep them back by encouraging them to give in to sexual objectification (subconsciously of course, through fashion mags and advertising, all these stupid reality shows, etc.) Thoughts?Trouble reconciling slutty-seeming girls with educational achievement? First, sexual objectification is great, and it's always going to happen. Actually it depends how you define prostitute-like dress, because professional prostitutes dress well. If you're referring to the trend of girls covered in trashy tattoos and wearing unwashed revealing clothing with words like "juicy" printed on them, I agree, but thats what happens when the standards are lowered to the extent they are. Regarding girls attending college, hasn't that been happening for a while now? The truth is very few of these girls belong there, but many parents are willing to break themselves financially in order for their kids to get a worthless degree, it's just a form of keeping up with the joneses. It shouldn't be surprising that many of seem seem slutty....they are. Very few males should be on college campuses,too. Lois
Hey, it’s all caused by global warming. People have to wear less clothes because of the heat. 
If one thinks back to a few hundred years ago, women wore a great deal of clothes, but over time they’ve worn less and less. I’m not sure of the reason for it, but young people tend to want to emulate the far-out group. Guys who would never want to be in a gang wear Knee length shorts, get tattoos, wear their caps backward, and girls tend to emulate the biker chick etc. type. I believe it has to do with the desire to look hip or cool (to use older words).
Similarly, males tend to wear clothes to attract females. If we consider the last century’s trends, I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next few decades people start wearing more and more transparent clothes so that, although covered, both the secondary and primary genetalia will be able to be observed. :lol:
Occam
I think the mistake being made by most of these posts is that somehow my attitude is to be expected from the “older generation”. Of course styles change, but that’s not what I’m talking about. When I was in college in the 80’s boys dressed pretty much how they dress now, and girls dressed pretty much how the boys dressed…regular t-shirts, cut-off jeans a little above the knee, or a dress around the knees etc. (Even the Madonna wannabees dressed similarly, just with farout clothes) NOWADAYS the boys still dress that way but girls (many many more but not all of course) dress like I described in my OP…like sluts, as a few posters also pointed out. And it’s NOT just me. Numerous of my wife’s friends have pointed this out too, some of whom are in their 30’s, so not my “older generation” or gender.
But my original post was really about what was driving this, the two “forces”. I do believe young women are being knowingly lead astray for profit. Or put it another way, they’re being led to believe looking like a prostitute is acceptable. AND the same thing is NOT happening with boys.
Now I can see two possibilities:
- Marketers and fashion industry in general know women like clothes and looking pretty more than men, so they are exploiting that purely for profit. (And no, I’m not saying liking clothes and looking pretty are bad…viva la difference! I love the fact that my wife and daughters like fashion. I don’t get it but I love that difference between them and me and my sons).
- FEMINISTS are behind this fashion trend on the theory that the more exposed, literally, women become the more men will just get used to seeing women that way with the opposite effect that keeping them all covered up has. Point being, the more you hide something from a person, the more desirous they become of it. That’s basic human psychology.
Any thoughts on these two ideas?
But my original post was really about what was driving this, the two "forces". I do believe young women are being knowingly lead astray for profit. Or put it another way, they're being led to believe looking like a prostitute is acceptable. AND the same thing is NOT happening with boys.It has become more acceptable to look like a prostitute, though. As I mentioned previously, the standards for grooming and appearance have just been lowered so much - for men and women. People are still impressed by those who cut a good figure, but for whatever reasons, many younger people can't be bothered to put much effort into it.
Now I can see two possibilities: 1) Marketers and fashion industry in general know women like clothes and looking pretty more than men, so they are exploiting that purely for profit.This has occurred since the dawn of civilization.
2) FEMINISTS are behind this fashion trend on the theory that the more exposed, literally, women become the more men will just get used to seeing women that way with the opposite effect that keeping them all covered up has. Point being, the more you hide something from a person, the more desirous they become of it. That's basic human psychology.It's doubtful that feminists have the power to influence fashion that much.
Hoping there are some hardcore feminists that can shed some light here. I've had kids in college for the last fives years, so far. So I've done the college tour thing as well as visited the colleges they attend. I'd say I've seen at least ten campuses. And I've noticed two things: 1) The number of girls attending has gone up, which is great, and 2) more and more of them dress like what I'd consider prostitutes. My wife says the term is prostiteens and she agrees with me on this point, so I don't think I'm being some kind of stupid male. So on the one hand it seems like a great thing that more young women are attending college, which IMO is one of the main ways they can achieve equality with men. OTOH, the way they dress turns them into sex objects, which is the exact opposite of the first goal, and one of the reasons women historically were "kept" unequal in male dominated societies. Is there anything behind these trends? In my mind I see two opposing forces, one pro-women encouraging them to get an education and achieve, and another anti-women force trying to keep them back by encouraging them to give in to sexual objectification (subconsciously of course, through fashion mags and advertising, all these stupid reality shows, etc.) Thoughts?Trouble reconciling slutty-seeming girls with educational achievement? First, sexual objectification is great, and it's always going to happen. Actually it depends how you define prostitute-like dress, because professional prostitutes dress well. If you're referring to the trend of girls covered in trashy tattoos and wearing unwashed revealing clothing with words like "juicy" printed on them, I agree, but thats what happens when the standards are lowered to the extent they are. Regarding girls attending college, hasn't that been happening for a while now? The truth is very few of these girls belong there, but many parents are willing to break themselves financially in order for their kids to get a worthless degree, it's just a form of keeping up with the joneses. It shouldn't be surprising that many of seem seem slutty....they are. Very few males should be on college campuses,too. LoisTrue enough, but overall males are majoring in more practical fields than females. By this I mean practical to society, and practical to career stability.