Thought we were making progress there for a minute. I’ll try to keep this short. There is no inherent function of the brain’s survival mechanism that “ensures survival" by living forever or by even just believing it. That’s unique to you. It’s not bringing you happiness or peace and it’s why you need professional help. Yes, people who don’t understand mental illness say horrible things. It’s like trying to teach someone with asthma how to breathe, you can’t do it. You need a doctor who understands that particular disease. Telling people who don’t understand mental illness that they are wrong or stigmatizers or whatever is almost as bad and just as fruitless. Maybe someday you will be able to better explain what you’re going through, and you will help people understand mental illness. But you gotta work on you right now.Now go ask a neurologist or evolutionary biologist and they will, in fact, tell you that the afterlife is vital to many people because we are hardwired for survival. The brain always wants us to survive and this is a fact. It wants us to live forever. So when someone such as myself doesn't believe in the afterlife, those mechanisms of the brain that make you feel miserable become always active since these are mechanisms that are trying to ensure your survival. This is a fact. When our survival is hindered or taken away, that is when the mechanisms of our brain that make us feel miserable, fearful, etc. become active. And if survival is always being hindered or taken away, those said mechanisms will continue to remain active since the brain is trying to ensure your survival. Since I left religion 6 years ago, that's kinda been a hobby of mine, so I have actually investigated that very question. I'm not a scientist, but this is a skeptics forum and I've learned how to ask scientific questions and determine a degree of confidence in my answers. I don't see much point in arguing with you given your past interactions, so I'll just say that I don't agree. If you'd like to convince me, I would suggest citing sources or suggesting articles and books that I could read. I'm always willing to be wrong and willing to learn.
Thought we were making progress there for a minute. I’ll try to keep this short. There is no inherent function of the brain’s survival mechanism that “ensures survival" by living forever or by even just believing it. That’s unique to you. It’s not bringing you happiness or peace and it’s why you need professional help. Yes, people who don’t understand mental illness say horrible things. It’s like trying to teach someone with asthma how to breathe, you can’t do it. You need a doctor who understands that particular disease. Telling people who don’t understand mental illness that they are wrong or stigmatizers or whatever is almost as bad and just as fruitless. Maybe someday you will be able to better explain what you’re going through, and you will help people understand mental illness. But you gotta work on you right now.Now go ask a neurologist or evolutionary biologist and they will, in fact, tell you that the afterlife is vital to many people because we are hardwired for survival. The brain always wants us to survive and this is a fact. It wants us to live forever. So when someone such as myself doesn't believe in the afterlife, those mechanisms of the brain that make you feel miserable become always active since these are mechanisms that are trying to ensure your survival. This is a fact. When our survival is hindered or taken away, that is when the mechanisms of our brain that make us feel miserable, fearful, etc. become active. And if survival is always being hindered or taken away, those said mechanisms will continue to remain active since the brain is trying to ensure your survival. Since I left religion 6 years ago, that's kinda been a hobby of mine, so I have actually investigated that very question. I'm not a scientist, but this is a skeptics forum and I've learned how to ask scientific questions and determine a degree of confidence in my answers. I don't see much point in arguing with you given your past interactions, so I'll just say that I don't agree. If you'd like to convince me, I would suggest citing sources or suggesting articles and books that I could read. I'm always willing to be wrong and willing to learn. Then I think I am wasting my time here having a discussion because this whole situation does not all come down to me being childish, needing to grow up, etc. as others say. It all comes down to what I just explained instead about how the brain is hardwired for survival and survival being the #1 thing that our brains try their best to always ensure for some people. People are looking at my situation the wrong way as I've explained. They fail to look at my brain and how it is hardwired to always want to survive. They look at my situation from a stigmatizing position rather than from the neurological/evolutionary standpoint. But I will look for articles nonetheless.
Then I think I am wasting my time here having a discussion because this whole situation does not all come down to me being childish, needing to grow up, etc. as others say. It all comes down to what I just explained instead about how the brain is hardwired for survival and survival being the #1 thing that our brains try their best to always ensure for some people. People are looking at my situation the wrong way as I've explained. They fail to look at my brain and how it is hardwired to always want to survive. They look at my situation from a stigmatizing position rather than from the neurological/evolutionary standpoint.You certainly could be doing something more productive, as could I. I'm kinda stuck in front of this computer, for reasons that are difficult to explain. What's your excuse? As I said, this is a skeptics forum. You can look at other threads and see what is considered acceptable evidence and what is not. You make a few good points, and you make some bad ones, all of us do that. You have never made a single citation, not even a link to pseudoscience website or the name of one of the neurologists you say would back you up. I'm sure there studies on how a belief in the afterlife makes you happy, I just don't find them very interesting.
Then I think I am wasting my time here having a discussion because this whole situation does not all come down to me being childish, needing to grow up, etc. as others say. It all comes down to what I just explained instead about how the brain is hardwired for survival and survival being the #1 thing that our brains try their best to always ensure for some people. People are looking at my situation the wrong way as I've explained. They fail to look at my brain and how it is hardwired to always want to survive. They look at my situation from a stigmatizing position rather than from the neurological/evolutionary standpoint.You certainly could be doing something more productive, as could I. I'm kinda stuck in front of this computer, for reasons that are difficult to explain. What's your excuse? As I said, this is a skeptics forum. You can look at other threads and see what is considered acceptable evidence and what is not. You make a few good points, and you make some bad ones, all of us do that. You have never made a single citation, not even a link to pseudoscience website or the name of one of the neurologists you say would back you up. I'm sure there studies on how a belief in the afterlife makes you happy, I just don't find them very interesting. First off, do you agree that the brain always tries to ensure our survival? Second, do you agree that when our survival is hindered or threatened, that the brain creates stress responses (unpleasant feelings/emotions) to ensure our survival? If it is a yes to both of these, then it would immediately follow that having a belief in the afterlife taken away would trigger unpleasant feelings/emotions such as depression and misery since the afterlife is a form of survival. It is when you live on after you die. To have that form of survival taken away would obviously make one such as myself miserable. Like I said, I will look for articles. Also, the reason why I am still here talking is because I wish to make it clear to everyone that they were all looking at my situation from the wrong perspective and that it is this perspective that they should be looking at it from.
Both of your questions require deeper discussion, a discussion you should have with a professional. They are partially true at least. That is, I’ll give you a qualified “yes” to both. Your conclusion however does not follow from your premises. Your logic might be valid, but it is not sound. Click here for more on that]
Both of your questions require deeper discussion, a discussion you should have with a professional. They are partially true at least. That is, I'll give you a qualified "yes" to both. Your conclusion however does not follow from your premises. Your logic might be valid, but it is not sound. Click here for more on that]Understood. Now I would like to ask something. Some people have a high level of altruism while others such as myself do not. People who are completely fine with not being happy and forever dying have high levels of altruism. They don't care about being happy and living forever. Nothing else in their lives needs their happiness and longevity. The things alone in of themselves independent of their happiness and longevity is able to give meaning to their lives. But when I go and focus on something else and help someone else and change their lives for the better, that does not bring meaning to my life. The happiness and longevity of others does not bring meaning to my life and nor does anything else independent of my own happiness and living forever. It is only my own feelings of happiness/enjoyment and the idea of me living forever that brings my life meaning. This is not shallow. It is not a shallow experience for me. It is the most profoundly meaningful experience for me in my life. So if I felt depressed and changed the world for the better, that would bring my life no meaning at all. It is only if I was happy, got to live forever, and enjoyed doing that which would bring complete joy and meaning to my life. I mean, I still do things such as helping out my mother when she needs help. So I do at least possess some level of altruism, although very minute. But I do not possess the massive level of altruistic genes and mechanisms of my brain that is necessary to completely change my life and give a whole new sense of meaning to my life. It requires a massive level of altruism for someone to be fine giving up their happiness and not needing to be happy and live forever. I do not possess this level of altruism. I am not sure if there is any way to increase my altruism to that level either. Or is there a way?
I’ve been interested in the idea of altruism for as long as I’ve known what it meant. I don’t know about any altruism gene, so I can’t address that. Neither do I know of any specific program that would develop it for you. Your MI is a barrier here though, since you don’t get the same emotional feedback that others do. When I looked up anodonia, or whatever it is you have, I seem to remember people who did slowly work up to getting that feedback. I’ve read that most people feel compassion to those they know or those who live around them, but everyone has trouble feeling anything for people far away or for large numbers of suffering people, like starving children in Africa. So, that’s normal. You don’t have to care about everything, or be some sort of compassionate hero.
I've been interested in the idea of altruism for as long as I've known what it meant. I don't know about any altruism gene, so I can't address that. Neither do I know of any specific program that would develop it for you. Your MI is a barrier here though, since you don't get the same emotional feedback that others do. When I looked up anodonia, or whatever it is you have, I seem to remember people who did slowly work up to getting that feedback. I've read that most people feel compassion to those they know or those who live around them, but everyone has trouble feeling anything for people far away or for large numbers of suffering people, like starving children in Africa. So, that's normal. You don't have to care about everything, or be some sort of compassionate hero.Even if my anhedonia were to be gone, my situation would still be the same and I would still be miserable because, like I said, it is only me living forever along with my feelings of happiness that give meaning to my life which was why I was asking to increase altruistic levels because as long as my level of altruism still stays the same (which is close to none, btw) and as long as the same level of selfish genes and mechanisms in my brain are still intact, then nothing will change with my life.
I've been interested in the idea of altruism for as long as I've known what it meant. I don't know about any altruism gene, so I can't address that. Neither do I know of any specific program that would develop it for you. Your MI is a barrier here though, since you don't get the same emotional feedback that others do. When I looked up anodonia, or whatever it is you have, I seem to remember people who did slowly work up to getting that feedback. I've read that most people feel compassion to those they know or those who live around them, but everyone has trouble feeling anything for people far away or for large numbers of suffering people, like starving children in Africa. So, that's normal. You don't have to care about everything, or be some sort of compassionate hero.Even if my anhedonia were to be gone, my situation would still be the same and I would still be miserable because, like I said, it is only me living forever along with my feelings of happiness that give meaning to my life which was why I was asking to increase altruistic levels because as long as my level of altruism still stays the same (which is close to none, btw) and as long as the same level of selfish genes and mechanisms in my brain are still intact, then nothing will change with my life. You can't possibly know that. People change political parties, they change who they are attracted to, they change favorite foods, they change loyalty to a soccer team, you can't predict these things. I have thought many times I was done changing, that life was going to be the same until the end, that I had learned everything important that I could learn. Then I'd find myself on the back of a pickup truck with some guy from Texas, or at a party bored out of my skull, or something popped up on Facebook, next I know, I'm leading a life I never expected.
I've been interested in the idea of altruism for as long as I've known what it meant. I don't know about any altruism gene, so I can't address that. Neither do I know of any specific program that would develop it for you. Your MI is a barrier here though, since you don't get the same emotional feedback that others do. When I looked up anodonia, or whatever it is you have, I seem to remember people who did slowly work up to getting that feedback. I've read that most people feel compassion to those they know or those who live around them, but everyone has trouble feeling anything for people far away or for large numbers of suffering people, like starving children in Africa. So, that's normal. You don't have to care about everything, or be some sort of compassionate hero.Even if my anhedonia were to be gone, my situation would still be the same and I would still be miserable because, like I said, it is only me living forever along with my feelings of happiness that give meaning to my life which was why I was asking to increase altruistic levels because as long as my level of altruism still stays the same (which is close to none, btw) and as long as the same level of selfish genes and mechanisms in my brain are still intact, then nothing will change with my life. You can't possibly know that. People change political parties, they change who they are attracted to, they change favorite foods, they change loyalty to a soccer team, you can't predict these things. I have thought many times I was done changing, that life was going to be the same until the end, that I had learned everything important that I could learn. Then I'd find myself on the back of a pickup truck with some guy from Texas, or at a party bored out of my skull, or something popped up on Facebook, next I know, I'm leading a life I never expected. I'll try my best then. That is all one can say.
Now I am trying all I can to rationalize with my misery to try and dispel it so that I can be at peace. I tried telling myself things such as that if there is no afterlife, then it is inevitable and there is just no reason to worry about it. When I die, I die. But this isn't helping. It is not bringing me peace. No matter how much I try to rationalize, I can't bring myself at peace. This is because we have the rational mechanisms of our brains and then we have the irrational mechanisms of our brains which ensure our survival. It is for this very reason why I can't rationalize myself at peace. I worry that those irrational survival mechanisms will always render my life empty and miserable. I can't rationalize with them. My life is overtaken and consumed by them. I'm not allowed to enjoy my life and have meaning in my life. These irrational survival mechanisms also are responsible for things such as complaining, only caring about living forever and being happy, etc. The brain is an organ that ensures our survival. It doesn't let up. Survival is very important. Hence the reason why my misery isn't letting up and is the reason why my complaining isn't letting up either. But for whatever reason, the brains of other people don't ensure their survival. These are people who are completely fine with forever remaining dead, they have no need to live forever and feel happy, etc. When it comes to the brain, survival is the #1 thing. So I think it is quite obvious why the #1 thing to me in my life is living forever and feeling happy. This is something I fear can't change because the brain always ensures our survival. Survival will always be something important. We live in a world today where we hold much stigma. We tell depressed people to just stop feeling sorry for themselves, "you are selfish," etc. But I am someone much more considerate. I am able to see past this stigma. I look at the brain and what is going on with it. It's just as I've explained, we shouldn't have stigma towards these types of people such as myself. You must understand here that survival is the #1 thing for many people. So instead of living in a world where we hold stigma, we should live in a much more "considerate" and "educated" world where we consider the brain and its workings. It is from that perspective that we will have much more consideration towards people such as myself. You don't understand just how powerful survival is. It is everything. It is the most powerful thing. It is the #1 thing. All other things are weak in comparison. They don't compare at all.Having a degree in psychology, I'm aware of a lot more than you may realize. That said, I think you may be suffering the affect of what Marlene calls "Religious Trauma Syndrome" and what Darrel Ray calls "The God Virus" and has a book by the same title. Belief in an afterlife does not equate a survival mechanism. It is a collective or tribal (as Valerie Tarico calls it) thinking, that is taught to many people from birth. I still suggest that seeking out Marlene, her groups, and Darrel Ray's Recovery From Religion, as well as exchristian.net could help you more than you may think. I do know that the exercises Marlene encourages people to do in her book help a lot and you could benefit from her book the exercises in them, and her group.
Adding to what I just said, here are a couple of articles
- The sad, twisted truth about conservative Christianity's effect on the mind | Salon.com (by Marlene Winell and Valerie Tarico
-
"Life Sucks" - the first Christian Lie | ExChristian.Net By Marlene Winell
Not sure if they will help you much, but you may find them a start toward finding answers.
Plus two videos. The first one is an interview with Bishop John Shelby Spong concerning an afterlife and is short. The second is by Dr. Andy Thompson (a psychologist) and is an hour long, so you may want to save it for when you have more time. - 'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube
- Why We Believe in Gods - Andy Thomson - American Atheists 09 - YouTube
Adding to what I just said, here are a couple of articles 1. http://www.salon.com/2014/11/01/the_sad_twisted_truth_about_conservative_christianitys_effect_on_the_mind_partner/ (by Marlene Winell and Valerie Tarico 2. http://new.exchristian.net/2014/04/life-sucks-first-christian-lie.html By Marlene Winell Not sure if they will help you much, but you may find them a start toward finding answers. Plus two videos. The first one is an interview with Bishop John Shelby Spong concerning an afterlife and is short. The second is by Dr. Andy Thompson (a psychologist) and is an hour long, so you may want to save it for when you have more time. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrgNow here is an experiment to perform and I'm not sure if such an experiment has been done. But take any survival driven animal that solely lives for its own survival and feelings of happiness and somehow make it aware of the finality of its own death. Such an animal is unaware of the finality of its own death since the concept of whether there is or is not life after death is a concept that this animal is unaware of. All it is aware of is that it just needs to stay alive. But if you were to somehow make it aware of the finality of its own death, you will see how devastated it will become. These are stress responses (unpleasant feelings/emotions) that are there to ensure its survival. You will see how these feelings will persist and how the animal will always remain miserable since survival and being happy is always what is vital to it. Its brain is hardwired for it and its brain absolutely needs it. That is the exact same situation that is going on with me. Me losing my belief in the afterlife is like being that devastated animal who is now aware of the finality of its own death.
Adding to what I just said, here are a couple of articles 1. http://www.salon.com/2014/11/01/the_sad_twisted_truth_about_conservative_christianitys_effect_on_the_mind_partner/ (by Marlene Winell and Valerie Tarico 2. http://new.exchristian.net/2014/04/life-sucks-first-christian-lie.html By Marlene Winell Not sure if they will help you much, but you may find them a start toward finding answers. Plus two videos. The first one is an interview with Bishop John Shelby Spong concerning an afterlife and is short. The second is by Dr. Andy Thompson (a psychologist) and is an hour long, so you may want to save it for when you have more time. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrgNow here is an experiment to perform and I'm not sure if such an experiment has been done. But take any survival driven animal that solely lives for its own survival and feelings of happiness and somehow make it aware of the finality of its own death. Such an animal is unaware of the finality of its own death since the concept of whether there is or is not life after death is a concept that this animal is unaware of. All it is aware of is that it just needs to stay alive. But if you were to somehow make it aware of the finality of its own death, you will see how devastated it will become. These are stress responses (unpleasant feelings/emotions) that are there to ensure its survival. You will see how these feelings will persist and how the animal will always remain miserable since survival and being happy is always what is vital to it. It's brain is hardwired for it and its brain absolutely needs it. That is the exact same situation that is going on with me. Me losing my belief in the afterlife is like being that devastated animal who is now aware of the finality of its own death. Not sure if you read the articles yet, but in response to your post, maybe you should check out Koko (the gorilla who signs) and elephants. You may find them interesting. Also, those of us who do not believe in an afterlife are very happy. Not happy all the time, but if we did not experience unhappiness, how would we even know we are happy? One doesn't need a belief in an afterlife to be happy and by the same token, neither does Koko.
But if you were to somehow make it aware of the finality of its own death, you will see how devastated it will become.Nonsense! That's only one way in envision it. What about appreciating that this moment and living it to your fullest (whatever that may be) IS the goal of life. That relegates death to the final act, a curiosity, but certainly not an all consuming obsession. __________________________________ As for death, chew on this one. The are two kinds of death, cowering and fearful, the other accepting, like that step out of an airplane at ten thousand feet and into the adventure. just saying :cheese:
First, awesomely succinct post. I wish Occam were alive to see that. Second. I was excited by those first few sentences, I thought you had really started seeing where happiness comes from, then came that second paragraph. Happiness doesn't come from an external goal, especially one that requires being dead to realize. One does not find happiness by saying they will be happy in the future, after some criteria is met. What was it about the belief in the afterlife that you think brought you happiness? Whether or not there is an afterlife of eternal bliss is a separate question. If you were actually experiencing eternal bliss, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And we don't know anyone who is actually experiencing that, so we can't know how to get there. We know some people who say they know, but we have doubts about them. So, the question is, what was it about that belief that you lost? Was it that you shared that belief with others? Was it that it gave you something to hope for? Was it just fun to believe? All of those things can be had without the actual belief. You can find something else to hope for, share it with others and just enjoy hoping for it for its own sake. Hope all is well otherwise.I became a materialistic skeptic. So I no longer am able to look forward to this eternal blissful afterlife I used to believe in. The brain is all about survival. It always wants to live and be happy. So I can choose to consciously focus on this life all I want, but I won't find any meaning in doing so. My subconscious will always still be focused on the notion of life after death which will always render my life completely empty. I am unable to enjoy my life and hobbies not only because I no longer believe in the afterlife anymore, but also because I no longer have my feelings of enjoyment due to a chronic mental condition known as anhedonia. This way of life just doesn't work for me. I need my old way of life back to me. Those two things I need in my life are my only source of meaning and happiness. I find no value whatsoever in any other way of living others might suggest to me. So go back to church and pray for a return to belief. It seems to be your only hope. Pray and pray some more. Ask a pastor to help you. I'm sure he or she has some techiques to get you back into the fold. You'll never get better until you believe again. I wouldn't waste another minute. It's been done by many people. There is no reason you can't do it--unless, of course, you have a secret wish to remain depressed--a way of punishing yourself for transgressing. A death wish. The death of your soul. You're almost there. I am willing to try anything, but I doubt there is any way to get my belief in the afterlife back to me. I am in the mindset of a serious hardcore skeptic. So I think it will be impossible to convince me. If you were a true skeptic you wouldn't be pining after belief. You are not a skeptic, you are a fraud who is defrauding himself. No true skeptic would have the thoughts you have about an afterlife. Intelligent skeptics accept the inevitable. You are a deliberate malcontent. I see no hope for you. You are ruining your life with your ridiculous whining about the impossible It's time you grew up. I have an open mind to the afterlife and it's this open mindedness that seeks to regain belief in the afterlife. Also, I am sorry. I can no longer engage with someone like you. You are of no help and are cruel to me unlike the moderator here who is nice to me. The moderator is the type of person I need to engage with. So I am completely ignoring you and your comments here on in. You call me childish. But ignoring you here and now is the mature thing to do. Suit yourself. I raised three sons and a daughter and I would never have let them wallow in self pity the way you do. Incidentally, they are all atheists and rationalists and they are all university graduates, successful and happy with their lives. None of them wallows in self pity. I must have done something right by by expecting them to grow up, take responsibility and not allowing them to feel sorry for themselves. I had hoped a kick in the pants might make you straighten up, but I'm afraid you are a hopeless case. Wallow away.
But if you were to somehow make it aware of the finality of its own death, you will see how devastated it will become.Nonsense! That's only one way in envision it. What about appreciating that this moment and living it to your fullest (whatever that may be) IS the goal of life. That relegates death to the final act, a curiosity, but certainly not an all consuming obsession. __________________________________ As for death, chew on this one. The are two kinds of death, cowering and fearful, the other accepting, like that step out of an airplane at ten thousand feet and into the adventure. just saying :cheese: I don't think this is nonsense. I think this is really how it would work out. The survival mechanisms are irrational and rationalizing with them such as telling ourselves that we have this life to enjoy is not going to work. We are not hardwired rationally and nor is any other animal. So that is the reason why the animal would, in fact, be devastated regardless of how it tried to rationalize. The animal is hardwired to want to survive and be happy. Therefore, rationalizing with this won't work just like how it does not work with me either. I have honestly and truly told myself things such as not to worry about death and be happy and enjoy this life and it does not work which is proof right here that what I am saying is not nonsense.
First, awesomely succinct post. I wish Occam were alive to see that. Second. I was excited by those first few sentences, I thought you had really started seeing where happiness comes from, then came that second paragraph. Happiness doesn't come from an external goal, especially one that requires being dead to realize. One does not find happiness by saying they will be happy in the future, after some criteria is met. What was it about the belief in the afterlife that you think brought you happiness? Whether or not there is an afterlife of eternal bliss is a separate question. If you were actually experiencing eternal bliss, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And we don't know anyone who is actually experiencing that, so we can't know how to get there. We know some people who say they know, but we have doubts about them. So, the question is, what was it about that belief that you lost? Was it that you shared that belief with others? Was it that it gave you something to hope for? Was it just fun to believe? All of those things can be had without the actual belief. You can find something else to hope for, share it with others and just enjoy hoping for it for its own sake. Hope all is well otherwise.I became a materialistic skeptic. So I no longer am able to look forward to this eternal blissful afterlife I used to believe in. The brain is all about survival. It always wants to live and be happy. So I can choose to consciously focus on this life all I want, but I won't find any meaning in doing so. My subconscious will always still be focused on the notion of life after death which will always render my life completely empty. I am unable to enjoy my life and hobbies not only because I no longer believe in the afterlife anymore, but also because I no longer have my feelings of enjoyment due to a chronic mental condition known as anhedonia. This way of life just doesn't work for me. I need my old way of life back to me. Those two things I need in my life are my only source of meaning and happiness. I find no value whatsoever in any other way of living others might suggest to me. So go back to church and pray for a return to belief. It seems to be your only hope. Pray and pray some more. Ask a pastor to help you. I'm sure he or she has some techiques to get you back into the fold. You'll never get better until you believe again. I wouldn't waste another minute. It's been done by many people. There is no reason you can't do it--unless, of course, you have a secret wish to remain depressed--a way of punishing yourself for transgressing. A death wish. The death of your soul. You're almost there. I am willing to try anything, but I doubt there is any way to get my belief in the afterlife back to me. I am in the mindset of a serious hardcore skeptic. So I think it will be impossible to convince me. If you were a true skeptic you wouldn't be pining after belief. You are not a skeptic, you are a fraud who is defrauding himself. No true skeptic would have the thoughts you have about an afterlife. Intelligent skeptics accept the inevitable. You are a deliberate malcontent. I see no hope for you. You are ruining your life with your ridiculous whining about the impossible It's time you grew up. I have an open mind to the afterlife and it's this open mindedness that seeks to regain belief in the afterlife. Also, I am sorry. I can no longer engage with someone like you. You are of no help and are cruel to me unlike the moderator here who is nice to me. The moderator is the type of person I need to engage with. So I am completely ignoring you and your comments here on in. You call me childish. But ignoring you here and now is the mature thing to do. Suit yourself. I raised three sons and a daughter and I would never have let them wallow in self pity the way you do. Incidentally, they are all atheists and rationalists and they are all university graduates, successful and happy with their lives. None of them wallows in self pity. I must have done something right by by expecting them to grow up, take responsibility and not allowing them to feel sorry for themselves. I had hoped a kick in the pants might make you straighten up, but I'm afraid you are a hopeless case. Wallow away. I am not a hopeless case. I think you have failed to read my recent posts here. If you did, you would be informed otherwise. You just read that one post of mine and replied to that. But take a look at my other posts as well.
You don’t understand, LoisL. It is the most horrendous thing to me that I will forever no longer exist. The person is what is important here. Other things are just objects and situations. The person is what is important here. I am important and me living on forever happy is the most important thing to me. Believing that is the most important thing to me. To dismiss that is to dismiss my importance as an individual. It’s like you don’t even care that I could very well forever die one day. It’s like I am not important to you at all. If you truly saw me as someone important, then you would think I would be more than deserving of living forever and being happy. So instead of harping on me, you would help me regain that through belief. If I am believing, then it is like I really do have that life to live after I die.
Anyone who thinks:
“You are, in fact, an important person, Mozart Link. As long as you are helping someone and making the world a better place, then you are important. However, I could care less if you forever remain dead someday and don’t get to live an eternal blissful life because that doesn’t matter.”
Anyone who thinks this is not a real person at all. I can safely say here that no one here is a real person. The first half of that quoted sentence implies that I am someone important. But the latter half of the sentence contradicts that. If I were to just die right now and forever remain dead, then all you people would say would be:
“Welp, Mozart Link was a brave warrior. At least he tried to change for the better and did something with his life.”
You wouldn’t care at all about the very fact that I, as an important individual, no longer exist at all.
Mozart, I agree with Lois about living life to it’s fullest and appreciating the moment. You know what makes everyone important? The fact that we are not infinite. That is what makes life so precious. Besides, if we all lived forever and produced at the rate we do now, just think how crowded it would be on this planet. That said though, because life is precious, we cherish it, live every moment to it’s fullest, experiencing good times and bad times, sadness and joy, etc without wallowing in self-pity concerning our demise. Carpe Deim. You know what makes life great? Waking up every morning and hearing the birds sing on a nice spring or summer day. Grown children visiting their parents (and bringing the grandkids, if any). Other animals. A sunrise or sunset. Birthdays. And my favourite, even though my aunt is gone now (died shortly afterwards) remembering the sudden bright smiling beam in my aunt’s face when I came to visit her in the nursing home. I cherish that last moment with her. She didn’t wallow in self-pity, knowing that her time to die was coming and it really doesn’t matter what she did or didn’t believe about death, she did knew she wasn’t going to live much longer, especially after so many strokes that debilitated her by age 75. I even think by that point, she may have even welcomed death. She lives on in our hearts and minds though. She was no less important than any other human, but the fact is, like every other human (with or without any religious belief), she came to terms with the fact she wasn’t going to live forever. You could be Mae West or Humphrey Bogart, but there will be a generation, if there isn’t one now, that says, “Humphrey who?” I don’t think young people even care about Ben Franklin, who live 200 years ago, so you could be famous, die, and it wouldn’t matter, except maybe the contributions you gave to the world while you were living. The thing is, we all have to come to terms, sooner or later, with our eventual demise. We don’t have to like it, but we do have to come to terms with it, and in the meantime, we all have to strive to live life to the fullest, because this is the only one we get and since we are here, we might as well strive to appreciate what we do have while we are alive to do so- be it a few years or 100+ years. I even look forward to one day having grandkids, now that my sons are grown and when they do give me a grandbaby, I will be part of that person’s life too and one day, they’ll look back, after I die, and say, “She was an awesome grandmother. We did this and that together, she did this and that for me…” I wouldn’t want them remembering me as the grandmother who wallowed in self-pity concerning her own demise. That’s not life and it’s not what life is about.