What Is The Meaning Of Human Existence?

It’s true that we “decide” what our life means, but we can only do that based on the definitions of “decide” and “meaning” that came out of the culture that developed out the slime mold that we came from. I skipped a couple steps in there, but this is an advanced audience.
Fair enough, I decided early that my life was going to be an adventure and that I wanted to learn as much as I could about this world around me.

But, I’m a product of my parents, both physically and mentally. I grew up surrounded by stimulation that reinforced, well and yes, that foretold, my “decision”.

 

But, then there’s the other thing. A life considered - or a life done by rout.

Arrive at the end filled with glory in the adventure had, or arrive at the end wondering where all the years and decades disappeared to.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

About that purpose to life. We do have a hardwired biological purpose, to survive. I imagine the need for purpose starts with that, …

About that purpose to life. We do have a hardwired biological purpose, to survive. I imagine the need for purpose starts with that, …
On an individual basis, yes to survive.

Why survive? To perpetuate the species.

Why does the species need to continue? To fill it’s niche role in this interconnected ball of life we call Earth.

Why strive for the continuance of Earth? … so we can survive :wink:

(We could probably interleave a few more "Why"s and elements if we wanted too)

 

The drive to survive is already present in the lowly Paramecium. It searches relentlessly for anything it can use for energy. And it already displays a rudimentary ability to choose even as it has no brain or neural system at all. The choice is more mechanical than “mental”.

Just as the Slime Mold in a maze can avoid areas it has previously chemically marked as “closed”, the Paramecium is able to learn and avoid obstacles it bumps into.

And of course all this is purely survival oriented behavior. There is nothing else at that level.

@mrmhead. On an individual basis, yes to survive.

Why survive? To perpetuate the species.


That’s the god’s eye view. My body just wants to live another day.

And when I get one of those weird choking fits, it’s down to just wanting that next breath that every fiber in my body is struggling for.

After the fact, is when we have the time to attach meaning.

 

@w4U. The drive to survive is already present in the lowly Paramecium. ... And of course all this is purely survival oriented behavior. There is nothing else at that level.
Correct. Which is why I'm point it out as a primal biological imperative. Hard wired into every living thing.

It’s our fascinating complex minds that add all the window dressing.

Again it boils down to that simple division in reality, that I’ve been pounding on for the past couple years now. There is physical reality - then there are Mindscapes (which is directly correlated to biological complexity and potential).

For instance, I find no problem believing all mammals have an inter-life, that is a sense of themselves as individual agents within a great big world - even the one’s that flunk the mirror test. Beyond mammals, those other body-brains produce their respective mindscapes depending on their neural/brain complexity.

 

@mrmhead. On an individual basis, yes to survive.

Why survive? To perpetuate the species.


That’s the god’s eye view. My body just wants to live another day. As for perpetuating the species, when I was in the season of rut, I just wanted the woman and perpetuating the species was the last thing on my mind. I strongly suspect that is true of every creature that’s ever chased a female.

And when I get one of those weird choking fits, it’s down to just wanting that next breath that every fiber in my body is struggling for.

After the fact, is when we have the time to attach our lofty meanings.

@w4U. The drive to survive is already present in the lowly Paramecium. ... And of course all this is purely survival oriented behavior. There is nothing else at that level.
Correct. Which is why I'm point it out as a primal biological imperative. Hard wired into every living thing.

It’s our fascinating complex minds that add all the window dressing.

Again it boils down to that simple division in reality that I’ve been pounding on for the past couple years now. There is physical reality - then there are Mindscapes (which is directly correlated to biological complexity and potential).

For instance, I find no problem believing all mammals have an inter-life, that is some sense of themselves as individual agents within a great big world - even the one’s that flunk the mirror test. Beyond mammals, those other body-brains produce their respective mindscapes depending on their neural/brain complexity and the only thing all of them have in common is the imperative to keep living and doing what comes naturally.

 

I’ve thought about “mindscape” and if I understand your perspective correctly, Anil Seth’s “hallucination” is actually the clinical term for mindscape?

They seem to have the same definition, if I understand your meaning…:slight_smile:

The definition Anil Seth applies to hallucination is not the clinical definition of the word in the sense that medical professionals would agree on.

“A profound distortion in a person’s perception of reality, typically accompanied by a powerful sense of reality. An hallucination may be a sensory experience in which a person can see, hear, smell, taste, or feel something that is not there.”

Seth defines hallucination as the mental activities accompanying consciousness. Mindscape is not defined strictly and is personal definition dependent. The word can include dreams and the conscious perception of sensory data that does not exist. That last is the real definition of the word ‘hallucination’.

Seth is using an already strictly defined word in a sense that is at variance with the clinical definition. Seth is concerned with the fact that while individuals may agree on sensory input, how that data is interpreted is an individual thing, Not only is the interpretation not merely the raw data itself but the meaning can vary from individual to individual.

Seth’s labeling the entirely natural and important use of interpretation of sensory data as hallucination is misuse of a well-defined term in a very misleading way.

 

 

The definition Anil Seth applies to hallucination is not the clinical definition of the word in the sense that medical professionals would agree on.
Indeed, he uses it in context of everyday ordinary sensory observations . Note: he uses the qualification "controlled hallucination".
“A profound distortion in a person’s perception of reality, typically accompanied by a powerful sense of reality. An hallucination may be a sensory experience in which a person can see, hear, smell, taste, or feel something that is not there. ”https://www.medicinenet.com/hallucination/definition.htm

Seth defines hallucination as the mental activities accompanying consciousness. Mindscape is not defined strictly and is personal definition dependent. The word can include dreams and the conscious perception of sensory data that does not exist. That last is the real definition of the word ‘hallucination’.Seth is using an already strictly defined word in a sense that is at variance with the clinical definition. Seth is concerned with the fact that while individuals may agree on sensory input, how that data is interpreted is an individual thing, Not only is the interpretation not merely the raw data itself but the meaning can vary from individual to individual.


Right, when it goes wrong (as he demonstrates in the video) it becomes a clinical problem.

Seth’s labeling the entirely natural and important use of interpretation of sensory data as [i]hallucination[/i] is misuse of a well-defined term in a very misleading way.
You may be misinterpreting Seth’s use of the term "controlled hallucination". I believe he uses this in context of stored experiential memory against which sensory stimulation is compared. This would be a conscious normal mental activity as distinct from dreaming, which occurs at a different level.

From a discussion of Seth’s use of the term “controlled hallucination”

RAZ: I love this idea of a controlled hallucination. Is that what we experience? Is that how we experience the world – that it’s a controlled hallucination? We’re just, essentially, hallucinating all the time?

SETH: I love this phrase. I wish I could take credit for it, but I can’t. But I love the phrase because it points out that everything that we perceive – consciously or unconsciously, but let’s talk about consciousness for now – is a construction of the brain. I mean, it’s easy to think that we open our eyes and objective reality is revealed to us through the windows of our eyes.

RAZ: I’m at a baseball game. There’s the batter. There’s the hit.

RAZ: That’s real. That’s reality.

SETH: That’s right. But the truth is that all perceptions are acts of interpretation. They’re acts of informed guesswork that the brain applies when it encounters sensory data. I think the way I can think of this is that there is no light in the skull, and there’s no sounds. All that’s going on in the brain are electrical impulses whizzing around in complex patterns. And out of all this – all this pattern-making in the brain, a world appears.

And in some sense, we’ve known this for a long time. So since Newton, it’s been pretty clear that colors – red, yellow, green, et cetera – colors are not objective properties of objects in the world. They are attributes of reflected light. And the brain – the visual system will make inferences based on wavelengths of light about what color something is. So something as basic as color is not something that we just passively receive from the world. We actively attribute it to things out there in the world.

And the idea of controlled hallucination is just that, well, this applies to everything. I mean, this applies to everything that we perceive, and not just perceptions of things out there in the world, but also, it applies to our perceptions of our self, of our body, of our memories, of our sense of agency, of our sense of volition – that everything that we perceive is a construction.

But it’s not a random construction. It’s construction – it’s a best guess that is reined in by the sensory data at all times, which is why most of us agree, when we look at a table, that we will say, yeah, I see a table, you see a table and we both see the same thing. And that’s because these aren’t just random constructions. They’re constrained by the sensory data that we get. And that’s why, I think, the term, controlled hallucination, is very appropriate.


Can you suggest a better term to describe what Seth was explaining?

Having been roped into doing big time-consuming favors for someone I would rather not (but is important to someone important to me) I was unable to present my response to @write4u (#339697) in a timelier fashion than I would have wished. Me culpa.

I was already aware of the material you quoted from Seth and the full transcript it was extracted from. I was also aware of other material from Seth on this subject. But thanks for providing background material anyway.

Much of the organization of sensory data into rapidly comprehensible forms takes place before entering the complex nest of feedback systems that constitute consciousness. For example, organization of visual input into forms that allow rapid analysis into useful concepts at the conscious level has already taken place beginning as early as the visual sensory receptors such as the retina and more takes place in the optic nerve before reaching the brain proper. Categories of organization already performed and presented to the neuronic platform of consciousness include color separation (typically red/green/blue in humans) figure/ground separation, similarity, proximity, continuity and closure.

Similar organizational processes take place in other cranial nerves that provide input to the brain that involve hearing, smell/taste, skin/flesh sense, internal organ (visceral) sense. Although the details differ, similar organizational mechanisms exist in the nervous systems of more primitive animal types even when what corresponds to the cerebrum is of near negligible complexity and capability. Bottom line is that the bulk of the interpretation of sensory input has already taken before consciousness comes into play. Since the interpretation of sensory input is something important to survival, it should be no surprise that its existence arises earlier in evolutionary terms than a complex cerebrum that can support consciousness.

Clinical hallucination is the conscious awareness of entities for which there is no actual sense data, that is, an invention of consciousness. This differs from dreaming in that dreaming is associated with an unconscious state and typically does not generate an ongoing memory of the dreamed perceptions as being real. Dreaming is considered normal and not an aberration. Clinical hallucination is considered abnormal, that is, at least potentially detrimental to survival by impairing the usefulness of actual nerve derived sensory input.

The term controlled hallucination is improper in two senses. The term relates normal perception, that resulting from sensory input, with a term that properly applied refers only to perceptions not based on sensory input. And the term implies that clinical hallucinations are controlled by the hallucinator. The fact that the hallucinator is unable to distinguish hallucinations from sensory based perceptions is why hallucinations are a problem. One might imagine a person to be, shall we say less than fully clothed, but the normal person does not believe this is really the case and take action on it.

Although I do not believe Seth uses the label ‘clinical’ at any point, that label having been introduced by yourself, the fact that Seth’s use of the term ‘hallucination’ in opposition to its technical meaning is perhaps significant. Although a neuroscientist, Seth does in fact use a technical term not only incorrectly but in a way that strongly suggests that he is either unaware of or ignoring the complex network of central nervous system processes involved in how we perceive reality. Neither bodes well for the scientific value of his thesis.

 

Test with another browser for trouble shooting

 

 

OTD said; Neither bodes well for the scientific value of his thesis.
Can you offer a better perspective? I am really interested in the subject. The concept of a brain as an independent actor (Descartes) is truly fascinating. If I understand Seth correctly, he explains the mechanics very clearly. But I admit my limited knowledge in the subject, so I am open to correction, not just on terminology but on the content of the thesis.

 

@olderthandirt - #339677

“A profound distortion in a person’s perception of reality, typically accompanied by a powerful sense of reality. An hallucination may be a sensory experience in which a person can see, hear, smell, taste, or feel something that is not there.”

Seth defines hallucination as the mental activities accompanying consciousness.

Mindscape is not defined strictly and is personal definition dependent. The word can include dreams and the conscious perception of sensory data that does not exist. That last is the real definition of the word ‘hallucination’.


 

 

The conscious perception of sensory data that does not exist. That is the real definition of the word ‘hallucination’.
Thanks for the clarification.

Mindscape was brought up because I’ve adopted the term and define it basically as the entire spectrum of what our mind produces. I find that definition is necessary to drive home the distinction between Physical Reality and human perceptions and thoughts.

Physical Reality ending somewhere between neurons and thoughts, which is where Mindscape is the stage and characters of those thoughts.

<hr />

Seth: "And out of all this – all this pattern-making in the brain, a world appears."
That "world" is what I call the Mindscape.
Seth: But it’s not a random construction. It’s construction
Where as hallucination isn't the product of composition, it's chaotic signals overlapping.

Which bring me back to lamenting that Seth didn’t spend more time and effort in coming up with a more meaningful metaphor than, hallucination.

Thank’s @olderthandirt, appreciate your input!

 

You’re new around these parts, welcome. Hope you like it here, and come on back.

From a biological perspective, its to procreate and pass on your genetic code, from a religious prospective its to find God and learn how to be more human. Christianity when taught correctly teaches you to love your fellow humans. If someone upsets me and I begin to hate them (i.e they are now my enemy), God teaches me to pray for them (love your enemy) then it becomes hard to hate them as you are praying for their well being. I find it much easier to forgive someone who I have prayed for to be happy and content with life. I am only talking about difficult people here, thankfully I have never had to forgive something truly terrible. I did hear a funny quote the other day. ‘Fundamentalist Christians love the phaetus from the moment of conception up until the moment it realises its gay’ lol.

As far as I understand it, Science can answer questions like how? and when? but it cant answer the question why? or who? These are questions that you can only find in faith.

Christianity when taught correctly teaches you to love your fellow humans. --Simon
This is the problem. This is the apex of pretty much every argument I've had or seen about religion vs atheism. We can agree that loving each other is a key element to survival, to peace, to progress, etc. We can even agree on many ways to teach love, pass it on, celebrate it, live it, etc.

So, what’s the use of Christianity? This is admitting that it can be done wrong. Mostly, we argue about the degree of how wrong it has been done. But we agree it’s been wrong. At what point do you accept it is not fixable, that big parts of it need to be discarded?

 

Good one about the fetus. :slight_smile:

 

?

I think, therefore I am.

Why should human existence have a meaning, except the one we give it, or other give it, when thinking about us?

Every one gives a meaning to his own existence, and we give a meaning to the other one existence, according to the way we think about them.

Beyond that it is mere speculation.

 

Why should human existence have a meaning, except the one we give it, or other give it, when thinking about us? -- M01
It's kind of circular, but here's my answer. We "should" seek meaning because we are wired in a way that we seek it. If we didn't seek meaning, I'm not sure we would bother to do the dishes.
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We’re the mainspring.