War On Christmas

Scientificity of the bible… Historicity of the bible

I have nephew who is a jesuit priest. I asked him the catholic church position. He answered me that, nowadays, fo the catholic church, any reading of the bible was legitime, except treating her as literal truth. You may read it as a poem, as a collection of mythos, as an allegory, but you must be very careful if you want to read it literally.

The bible cannot be perfect, as if it was perfect, there would be something perfect beside god. And that should be heresy for a believer. More, the text has been copied and copied, and this garanties inaccuracy and faults. Last it has been translated in Greek, and from that in other langages. And translation is a big source of inaccuracy.

Scienticity of the bible … On does not need to be a specialist to disbelieve that the bible is scientifically untrue. Scientist can disagree about the creation of the world, but one thing is sure, it came to exist milliards of years ago, not 6 000 years ago, more or less som hundreds.

Historicity of the bible: some event, some place should be true. But we roughly know when it was written and by who. What is certain is that the further in time passed the events described, the greatest is the inaccuracy.

For instance, Ancient egyptians had very few slaves and the probability that the hebrews were slaves in Egypt is very weak. Archeological finds show that some population lived in Middle east, well before the time of the Exodus, in villages, with a big difference with other villages, which is that the inhabitants did not eat porks.

I will give two exemples:

-Iliad tells the Troy war. Mycenaean palaces have been found, Try has been found and it has been proved that it was destroyed many times,one of which at the time of the so called Troy war.

Does it prove that the people whose Homer tells the story existed and that Troy was besieged 10 years, gods interfering? No one believes that. Iliazd was written roughly 500 years after the events it describes and time and legends distort the facts, especially when no written records are kept.

-Livy wrote at the end of the pre-christian era an history of Roma since its origins. All critics, and the authors explain that the tale of the legendary beginnings of Roma are inaccurate and that the more recents are the events, better is the accuracy.

Bible writing was begun roughly in the 9th century BC, by scribes commissioned by kings. How could they be accurate collecting legends, and using older texts, more or less understood ?

And there are inconsistencies in the bible.

Last, there is no rational or theological reason that the bible be literally true. The only reason is tradition and tradition can be wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Bible

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#Table_I:Chronological_overview(Hebrew_Bible/Old_Testament)

 

 

@citizenschallengev3

I was confused about how 40 days and nights related to gestation? Til I did a little math and all was revealed. Average gestation 40 weeks.

I was confused too when more than one priest said this and I also researched it.

@ibelieveinlogic It never ceases to amaze me how many brainwashed people recoil when given the truth of the Bible and what the numbers and alike actually symbolize or really are. It was not humour, I assure you.

@morgankane01

He answered me that, nowadays, fo the catholic church, any reading of the bible was legitime, except treating her as literal truth. You may read it as a poem, as a collection of mythos, as an allegory, but you must be very careful if you want to read it literally.

What is certain is that the further in time passed the events described, the greatest is the inaccuracy.
On does not need to be a specialist to disbelieve that the bible is scientifically untrue.
And there are inconsistencies in the bible.

Last, there is no rational or theological reason that the bible be literally true. The only reason is tradition and tradition can be wrong.

Wickedpedia isn’t a reliable source either, but what you said is very true. There is no truth in the Bible, it is not accurate scientifically or historically, and for various Xians and Xian sects to insist it is true and accurate is nothing more than an attempt to keep people brainwashed and believing a myth.

First, we have an atheist, who would deny that the exodus as described in the Bible, which atheists must consider to be a complete fake, never happened because of the total lack of evidence or any account of such a thing in Egyptian history confirming now that it did happen. Second, that atheist, who considers Moses as only a mythological character now confirming that he did exist and did do at least some of what is described in the Bible. Third, that same atheist stating absolutely that the mountain where the mythical Moses received, not produced, the 10 Commandments during the exodus, which did not happen, not only has been located but also has been positively identified as a known volcanic site.
No one suggested such a thing. You are projecting your own atheist arguments. Atheists do not deny the existence of most historical figures based on verified evidence. Atheists deny the existence of a God (of which there is no evidence whatever) who performed miracles such as inscribing the 10 Commandments in a slab of stone.
According to the biblical narrative the first set of tablets, inscribed by the finger of God, (Exodus 31:18) were smashed by Moses when he was enraged by the sight of the Children of Israel worshipping a golden calf (Exodus 32:19) and the second were later chiseled out by Moses and rewritten by God (Exodus 34:1).
Isn't that neat, the stone inscribed by god was never produced, only the second stone carved by Moses, a feat anyone can perform. No miracles there.

The parting of the sea, if it actually happened, is clearly a natural event attributed to God at the request of Moses. Just as there are occasional very high tides caused by the gravitational pull of the moon, there are very low “neap” tides also caused by the gravitational pull of the moon at the other side of earth.

Tides are really all about gravity, and when we're talking about the daily tides, it's the Moon's gravity that's causing them.
https://scijinks.gov/tides/#

There are no miracles that cannot be attributed to natural events. Burning bushes, floods, draughts, occur all over the planet caused by natural mechanisms. Very early humans and even earlier than that saw the natural events for which there was no observable causality as the works or wraths of gods who were constantly at war above in the sky. If you reject mythology, then you must also reject the modern God(s). It’s all mythology.

The historical religious people may have existed just as the Pharaohs did . There is usually plenty evidence of their existence. It’s their beliefs and motives that are very much in doubt because there is no evidence in support of those claims.

 

@write4u

No one suggested such a thing. You are projecting your own atheist arguments. Atheists do not deny the existence of most historical figures based on verified evidence. Atheists deny the existence of a God (of which there is no evidence whatever) who performed miracles such as inscribing the 10 Commandments in a slab of stone.

Exactly. The stories in the Bible/Torah about Moses are no more true than George Washington and the Cherry Tree. That story is a myth. There have been many stories/myths/legends told and eventually written about many people who lived in the past. Just like Jesus, of whom there were many around the time the story was written, the story is mythology. There were also many crucifixions because that was the punishment used often around the time the story was set. There isn’t any real history to the story and while there may have been a real person behind the story, actual facts are missing. If that Jesus ever lived, you aren’t going to find the real person in the Bible, anymore than you will find the real Washington in the story of the Cherry Tree.

Exactly. The stories in the Bible/Torah about Moses are no more true than George Washington and the Cherry Tree. That story is a myth. There have been many stories/myths/legends told and eventually written about many people who lived in the past. Just like Jesus, of whom there were many around the time the story was written, the story is mythology. There were also many crucifixions because that was the punishment used often around the time the story was set. There isn’t any real history to the story and while there may have been a real person behind the story, actual facts are missing. If that Jesus ever lived, you aren’t going to find the real person in the Bible, anymore than you will find the real Washington in the story of the Cherry Tree.
I suppose next you're going to tell me Abraham Lincoln wasn't born in a log cabin he built with his own two hands ... :(

 

 

I suppose next you’re going to tell me Abraham Lincoln wasn’t born in a log cabin he built with his own two hands …

Oh brother! rolling eyes I suppose you’re going to tell me you didn’t pay attention in history class, because you were too busy reading comic books inside the text book? No one said anything about Lincoln. We were talking about the Geo. Washington and the Cherry Tree story, which never actually happened. Not about Lincoln’s log cabin building skills, something of which many a man, even women helped their husbands too, did at the time. rolling eyes

Abraham Lincoln wasn’t born in a log cabin he built with his own two hands

 

If he could build a cabin before being born, it is truly an exploit ?

LOL!!!

It would be a MIRACLE!

lol I know, that was funny and I almost lost my water all over the monitor on that one. A newborn baby building his own log cabin. Would that be lincoln logs? How did he not suck on the logs and get them all slippery slobbery? Oh wait! He was born in the cabin he build, so he was able to build his log cabin while still in the gestational phase of his development. Now that’s real skill.

That’s building from the inside out.

But … but …but…

I read it on the Internet!! It must be true!

 

ROFLMAO!

Is this because prior to the internet some people never read a history book. If the internet is the only source of information a person has ever been exposed to, is it any wonder that one’s outlook on reality is totally skewed?

Americans know literally nothing about the Constitution By Chris Cillizza, CNN Editor-at-large Updated 4:39 PM EDT, Wed September 13, 2017

(CNN) —
If you are way into politics, you are not the average American. Not even close.

A new poll from the University of Pennsylvania’s Annenberg Public Policy Center reveals how shockingly little people know about even the most basic elements of our government and the Constitution that formed it.

Take your pick from this bouillabaisse of ignorance:

  • More than one in three people (37%) could not name a single right protected by the First Amendment. THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

  • Only one in four (26%) can name all three branches of the government. (In 2011, 38% could name all three branches.)

  • One in three (33%) can’t name any branch of government. None. Not even one.

  • A majority (53%) believe the Constitution affords undocumented immigrants no rights. However, everyone in the US is entitled to due process of law and the right to make their case before the courts, at the least.

(And the First Amendment protects the rights to free speech, free exercise of religion, freedom of the press and the rights of people to peaceably assemble, in case you were wondering.)

“Protecting the rights guaranteed by the Constitution presupposes that we know what they are,” said Annenberg Director Kathleen Hall Jamieson. “The fact that many don’t is worrisome.”

Uh, yeah.


https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/13/politics/poll-constitution/index.html

If the internet is the only source of information a person has ever been exposed to, is it any wonder that one’s outlook on reality is totally skewed?
If the fake news or the social media are the only sources of information a person has ever been exposed to, is it any wonder that one’s outlook on reality is totally skewed?
No one suggested such a thing.
Your post:
... as seen by Moses getting the 10 Commandments, which was a volcano ...
In the English language attributing an action to a named individual, without qualification of any kind, indicates that the individual exists or existed. A statement about an object or place using terms such as "was", again without qualification, leaves no doubt that the writer considers the object or place to be real and clearly identified.

There was no suggestion, just a declarative statement.

In the English language attributing an action to a named individual, without qualification of any kind, indicates....
Like I said a couple days ago, Bob rarely responds to other posts. Now, when he does, he parses a sentence and makes claims about how English works. He might even have a point, but does it matter? Does it add to this conversation? Is it engaging in dialog? I don't think so.
Is this because prior to the internet some people never read a history book.
I remember first hearing about polls like this in High School. Back then, pollsters stood outside grocery stores and asked the questions. So, these are people capable of buying food for themselves, driving, and understanding English. I don't think these numbers have changed much in 50 years. It's funnier now (sad funny) because we also see more of them claiming to know about FREEDOM and asking rhetorical questions about something Obama did.

The saddest part is, you can’t tell a stupid person they are stupid, because their house and car looks like yours and they might even make more money than you. Pointing out facts they are wrong about just entrenches them in not wanting to listen to you or anyone who holds opinions like yours. And for the last four years, the President of the US has been telling them they are right about everything and everyone else is lying to them.

@ibelieveinlogic No worries. Most of us here have had more exposure than that. I, myself, studied it in college, as a minor, as well as had other influences like Bishop John Shelby Spong, Fr Tom Harper, other Episcopal priests, as well as non-Episcopal resources, even served in the Church for a while, before losing any belief I had. So, my sources did not come from the internet. The same goes for many CFI members.

@ibelieveinlogic

In the English language attributing an action to a named individual, without qualification of any kind, indicates that the individual exists or existed. A statement about an object or place using terms such as “was”, again without qualification, leaves no doubt that the writer considers the object or place to be real and clearly identified.

We’re talking about a friggin’ story, much like the Cherry Tree story. When talking about a story, it’s just that. It does not declare it being real or not real. Geo. Washington was a real person in history, but the story is a myth about him. The man in the story never actually existed, but the president Geo. Washington did. So if you are going to dissect every single word then you are getting just ridiculous and ludicrous. Seems to me you just want to find ways to say, “Nu huh! Not true! Not True!” and find ways to accuse people of actually believing the story, which is really stupid, because people discuss many different stories all the time in the very same manner. BTW, it’s also sophomoric.

These discussions remind me of George Carlin who so wonderfully edited the 10 Commandments.