Here’s an easy way to prove Christians (and other so-called believers) don’t really have faith in God or Jesus.
YOU to your believer subject: Do you have faith in God, is Jesus your co-pilot as the bumper sticker says?
BELIEVER: You bet your ass I have faith in God. Jesus IS my co-pilot and only real men believe in him.
YOU: Great. I want you to find a desserted highway, put the pedal to the metal and as soon as you hit 100mph let your co-pilot take over by taking your hands off the steering wheel.
BELIEVER: But that’s suicide, which is forbidden.
YOU: Not if your co-pilot takes over.
I’ll bet not a single believer takes this little test.
All theists are atheists when it comes to gods other than their own. They shouldn’t act as if they don’t unerstand atheism. Believing in gods does not make the believer not an atheist. He’s as atheist as anyone who admits to being an atheist.
Lois
All theists are atheists when it comes to gods other than their own. They shouldn't act as if they don't unerstand atheism. Believing in gods does not make the believer not an atheist. He's as atheist as anyone who admits to being an atheist. LoisWell there's that too...everybody is somebody's atheist.
My wife is an atheist, she doesn’t know it yet. She goes to church, including Bible Study. They are reading a book called “Why” by this guy.]
It’s the tough questions people ask, theodicy, etc. He offers nothing new, instead he just points out that it is hypocritical to say “thank God that child survived the car crash” when the parents died. He says some things that I can’t believe people buy, like, God doesn’t “intend” bad things to happen. People get cancer because the human body is frail, or earthquakes happen because that’s how planets are made. But God made everything, and he’s good. Yeah, I asked her, she didn’t understand the question.
It’s weird to read a theologian saying things Richard Dawkins has said. He spends a few pages on people who say “God’s plan” or “God took him home” when talking about a death by disease. He says, what that means is, God reached down, put some cancer in someone’s lung, and killed them, as part of a plan. He points out how absurd that is, but offers no alternative, just that God doesn’t do that. He doesn’t blame “sin” either, so that’s good.
But at least the study group realizes the questions are there. Choosing to grapple with them at all is dangerous one’s faith.
Here's an easy way to prove Christians (and other so-called believers) don't really have faith in God or Jesus. YOU to your believer subject: Do you have faith in God, is Jesus your co-pilot as the bumper sticker says? BELIEVER: You bet your ass I have faith in God. Jesus IS my co-pilot and only real men believe in him. YOU: Great. I want you to find a desserted highway, put the pedal to the metal and as soon as you hit 100mph let your co-pilot take over by taking your hands off the steering wheel. BELIEVER: But that's suicide, which is forbidden. YOU: Not if your co-pilot takes over. I'll bet not a single believer takes this little test.Nope. The Christian will say, "It's blasphemy to try and test God." Or he'll say, "God isn't some comic book superhero who swoops down to the rescue when we do stupid things." Then he will try to turn it back on you, and say, "I feel so sorry for you that your life is so empty without a relationship with Jesus." In other words, they have a thousand and one rationalizations.
I really like Jesus. I have always felt that Jesus was an atheist. Reason is because of the Gnostic teachings. I know that he was a Jewish high priest. If you read the Lost Gospels it pretty much follows a theory on Jesus’s political objectives. I go along with the thinking that Mary, Jesus’s wife was the god in the family. But at the time of Jesus, there were a lot of gods. But this thinking is outside of the bible, where few dare to venture.
What most atheists and theists don’t seem to understand is religion is part of what makes us the types of humans that define mankind. Gods are bad for mankind and are also bad for giving power to religious beliefs that are false. Just look at the timelines of burials. They go back 300,000 years. Now look at the Adam burials or red earthman burials. The red ochre burials have so far been found going back 100,000 years to present time. We know also that heaven and the spirit go back to pre-history. But deities are new. The oldest religion we have is Hinduism and they have no deity. Thus deities have only been around for one tenth as long as religion. And then they had to evolve. The Christian god evolved from the god of the OT. So one could argue that the Christian god has only been around for 2% of the known religious time.
So one could argue that the Christian god has only been around for 2% of the known religious time.One could argue a lot of things. 100% of the time. Or they could get a life.
I had an even better proof, back in the days when I used to talk with street preachers fairly often.
“God loves me, right? He doesn’t want me to suffer through life without knowing Him, correct?”
He’d say, “Yes.”
“And God knows me inside and out, correct? He knew me before I was in the womb. So He knows exactly the way I think.”
He’d say, “Sure.”
“And God answers prayer, right? Not sometimes, but all of the time, right?”
He’d say, “Right.”
“So all you have to do is pray, and God should put into your mouth the precise words it would take to persuade me. No miracle required. Just the omniscience that comes naturally to Him.”
And at this point, I would usually get Psalms 14:1 thrown in my face: “The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.” And when that didn’t work, he had an easy out. It was my “hardened heart” that was to blame.
Nope. The Christian will say, "It's blasphemy to try and test God." Or he'll say, "God isn't some comic book superhero who swoops down to the rescue when we do stupid things." Then he will try to turn it back on you, and say, "I feel so sorry for you that your life is so empty without a relationship with Jesus." In other words, they have a thousand and one rationalizations.The car wheel story is not good, for the reason Advocates stated. It gives the Christian an easy and solid rebuttal. I prefer sticking with the real world. Only a complete religious fool would spurn oncologists and turn to prayer to cure cancer. The vast majority of Christians realize deep down that prayer is useless against cancer so they turn to modern medicine for the only real hope they have, but they still pray and give thanks to god for every small success in their treatment. They can rationalize anything. If they are cured, they give the praise and thanks to god. If the cancer wins, it was part of god's plan. So far, not one Christian has seen able to give me a good answer when I ask why children die of cancer. They just wave their hands mumble platitudes.
So one could argue that the Christian god has only been around for 2% of the known religious time.One could argue a lot of things. 100% of the time. Or they could get a life. Yes, that is what religion is for a lot of people, a way of life. Do Christians and Atheists know enough about religion to step outside of the bible? If not then the Christian beliefs are proving to be just exactly what CuthbertJ is stating. The point I brought up was, what was religion the other 90% of the time that it was not about belief in deities? When everyone was an atheist. Care to venture outside the bible into the rest of the real history?
I had an even better proof, back in the days when I used to talk with street preachers fairly often. "God loves me, right? He doesn't want me to suffer through life without knowing Him, correct?" He'd say, "Yes." "And God knows me inside and out, correct? He knew me before I was in the womb. So He knows exactly the way I think." He'd say, "Sure." "And God answers prayer, right? Not sometimes, but all of the time, right?" He'd say, "Right." "So all you have to do is pray, and God should put into your mouth the precise words it would take to persuade me. No miracle required. Just the omniscience that comes naturally to Him." And at this point, I would usually get Psalms 14:1 thrown in my face: "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." And when that didn't work, he had an easy out. It was my "hardened heart" that was to blame.The street preachers are steadfast in belief. Here one a little different. I am downtown and echoing off the building was the screams of a guy repeating over and over again. “Can anyone tell me why in this day and age, why the black man prays to a white god that did not exist?"
So one could argue that the Christian god has only been around for 2% of the known religious time.One could argue a lot of things. 100% of the time. Or they could get a life. Yes, that is what religion is for a lot of people, a way of life. Do Christians and Atheists know enough about religion to step outside of the bible? If not then the Christian beliefs are proving to be just exactly what CuthbertJ is stating. The point I brought up was, what was religion the other 90% of the time that it was not about belief in deities? When everyone was an atheist. Care to venture outside the bible into the rest of the real history? The OP was about Christians. Most atheists have ventured out of the Bible and know more about religions in general than most believers. I have ventured a lot myself, but not with you. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Go start your own thread and notice how no one responds.
So one could argue that the Christian god has only been around for 2% of the known religious time.One could argue a lot of things. 100% of the time. Or they could get a life. Yes, that is what religion is for a lot of people, a way of life. Do Christians and Atheists know enough about religion to step outside of the bible? If not then the Christian beliefs are proving to be just exactly what CuthbertJ is stating. The point I brought up was, what was religion the other 90% of the time that it was not about belief in deities? When everyone was an atheist. Care to venture outside the bible into the rest of the real history? The OP was about Christians. Most atheists have ventured out of the Bible and know more about religions in general than most believers. I have ventured a lot myself, but not with you. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Go start your own thread and notice how no one responds. Just how sad is that. This site could have some serious debates, but as you prefer a chat room, that is exactly what you have got. Just about every time someone new comes along and tries to debate, they don’t stay long because of all the chatter. As I was pointing out that mankind’s religion has been mostly an atheist’s religion over time. A topic about Christians and Atheists that I doubt few here really thought about. Thus bringing up the point that Christians are showing signs of questioning the role of the deities in religion now. But that is just a little too deep for a chat room. Just as you brought up some good points in your posting. But you dead ended your thoughts. Basically a chat room comment. I know you have the potential and skills to do more than criticize and sit in judgement. None of the simple basic questions ever seem to get asked about these subjects like if the Hindus do fine without a god, then what would happen to Christianity if you got rid of god altogether? Would it need to be replaced with another religion? Life is what you make of it. At least we get to pick our paths today.
So one could argue that the Christian god has only been around for 2% of the known religious time.One could argue a lot of things. 100% of the time. Or they could get a life. Yes, that is what religion is for a lot of people, a way of life. Do Christians and Atheists know enough about religion to step outside of the bible? If not then the Christian beliefs are proving to be just exactly what CuthbertJ is stating. The point I brought up was, what was religion the other 90% of the time that it was not about belief in deities? When everyone was an atheist. Care to venture outside the bible into the rest of the real history? The OP was about Christians. Most atheists have ventured out of the Bible and know more about religions in general than most believers. I have ventured a lot myself, but not with you. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Go start your own thread and notice how no one responds. Just how sad is that. This site could have some serious debates, but as you prefer a chat room, that is exactly what you have got. Just about every time someone new comes along and tries to debate, they don’t stay long because of all the chatter. As I was pointing out that mankind’s religion has been mostly an atheist’s religion over time. A topic about Christians and Atheists that I doubt few here really thought about. Thus bringing up the point that Christians are showing signs of questioning the role of the deities in religion now. But that is just a little too deep for a chat room. Just as you brought up some good points in your posting. But you dead ended your thoughts. Basically a chat room comment. I know you have the potential and skills to do more than criticize and sit in judgement. None of the simple basic questions ever seem to get asked about these subjects like if the Hindus do fine without a god, then what would happen to Christianity if you got rid of god altogether? Would it need to be replaced with another religion? Life is what you make of it. At least we get to pick our paths today. What new people are you talking about? And the only chatter I see is from you. I've considered the things you've said, I've looked them up, and you don't even get dates right. You are often 10s of thousands of years off.
Here's an easy way to prove Christians (and other so-called believers) don't really have faith in God or Jesus. YOU to your believer subject: Do you have faith in God, is Jesus your co-pilot as the bumper sticker says? BELIEVER: You bet your ass I have faith in God. Jesus IS my co-pilot and only real men believe in him. YOU: Great. I want you to find a desserted highway, put the pedal to the metal and as soon as you hit 100mph let your co-pilot take over by taking your hands off the steering wheel. BELIEVER: But that's suicide, which is forbidden. YOU: Not if your co-pilot takes over. I'll bet not a single believer takes this little test.I'm not sure you can predict someone's level of faith from a corny bumper sticker. ;-P
So one could argue that the Christian god has only been around for 2% of the known religious time.One could argue a lot of things. 100% of the time. Or they could get a life. Yes, that is what religion is for a lot of people, a way of life. Do Christians and Atheists know enough about religion to step outside of the bible? If not then the Christian beliefs are proving to be just exactly what CuthbertJ is stating. The point I brought up was, what was religion the other 90% of the time that it was not about belief in deities? When everyone was an atheist. Care to venture outside the bible into the rest of the real history? The OP was about Christians. Most atheists have ventured out of the Bible and know more about religions in general than most believers. I have ventured a lot myself, but not with you. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Go start your own thread and notice how no one responds. Just how sad is that. This site could have some serious debates, but as you prefer a chat room, that is exactly what you have got. Just about every time someone new comes along and tries to debate, they don’t stay long because of all the chatter. As I was pointing out that mankind’s religion has been mostly an atheist’s religion over time. A topic about Christians and Atheists that I doubt few here really thought about. Thus bringing up the point that Christians are showing signs of questioning the role of the deities in religion now. But that is just a little too deep for a chat room. Just as you brought up some good points in your posting. But you dead ended your thoughts. Basically a chat room comment. I know you have the potential and skills to do more than criticize and sit in judgement. None of the simple basic questions ever seem to get asked about these subjects like if the Hindus do fine without a god, then what would happen to Christianity if you got rid of god altogether? Would it need to be replaced with another religion? Life is what you make of it. At least we get to pick our paths today. What new people are you talking about? And the only chatter I see is from you. I've considered the things you've said, I've looked them up, and you don't even get dates right. You are often 10s of thousands of years off. The new people who post on this site and get clobbered by the click of buzzards just waiting to emasculate their thinking. They never come back. Now, I agree that there are many that do need to be removed because of being crackpots. But, there have been some that have not deserved to have gotten beaten up and could have used some help. Ten of thousands of years off. I doubt that. You know I work from timelines. It is the only way to keep things straight today because history is changing so fast. Just yesterday, mankind to Australia was moved back 10K years. But it will most likely take a decade to be changed in the data people read and use. And you know damn well that most of the major social and scientific topics in the news today don’t make this web site because there is not enough participation. Of course you are not going to see the chatter, just like this site can’t recognize views from the right, it just ignores what it does not want to hear or understand. Sometimes I go fishing like in post #5 to see if there is anyone who is in this decade on the subject matter of religion. There is a lot of new data and theories out there by the best scholars on the subject who now have printed their work and it is not being challenged by the religious establishment at all. Just how long is this evolution verses creation going to drag on? It has been argued my whole lifetime. But never with the data and theories that we have today about Jesus and Christianity. Don’t you think that these posting could be easily dated one or two decades ago. So is this just an exercise of memory? If you are having trouble with matching the dates to subject that I have posted, just say something and I will respond as quickly as I can.
We’ve been over all of this before. You sound reasonable, but when you finally get to citations, we all see how you are making stuff up or getting it wrong, then you stop for while, then later you interrupt someone else’s thread with your garbage about red ochre burials.
Just yesterday, mankind to Australia was moved back 10K years. But it will most likely take a decade to be changed in the data people read and use.What does that even mean? If people can't read it, where are you getting it? You are a troll. Maybe you don't know you are, but you are.
I had an even better proof, back in the days when I used to talk with street preachers fairly often. "God loves me, right? He doesn't want me to suffer through life without knowing Him, correct?" He'd say, "Yes." "And God knows me inside and out, correct? He knew me before I was in the womb. So He knows exactly the way I think." He'd say, "Sure." "And God answers prayer, right? Not sometimes, but all of the time, right?" He'd say, "Right." "So all you have to do is pray, and God should put into your mouth the precise words it would take to persuade me. No miracle required. Just the omniscience that comes naturally to Him." And at this point, I would usually get Psalms 14:1 thrown in my face: "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." And when that didn't work, he had an easy out. It was my "hardened heart" that was to blame.The street preachers are steadfast in belief. Here one a little different. I am downtown and echoing off the building was the screams of a guy repeating over and over again. “Can anyone tell me why in this day and age, why the black man prays to a white god that did not exist?" Since he doesn't exist he can't be white or any race. What black peole pray to is an imaginary entity invented by Jews in ancient Israel passed down through the ages to gullible, mentally challenged people. Race is of no consequence when it comes to imaginary beings and gullible people.
I had an even better proof, back in the days when I used to talk with street preachers fairly often. "God loves me, right? He doesn't want me to suffer through life without knowing Him, correct?" He'd say, "Yes." "And God knows me inside and out, correct? He knew me before I was in the womb. So He knows exactly the way I think." He'd say, "Sure." "And God answers prayer, right? Not sometimes, but all of the time, right?" He'd say, "Right." "So all you have to do is pray, and God should put into your mouth the precise words it would take to persuade me. No miracle required. Just the omniscience that comes naturally to Him." And at this point, I would usually get Psalms 14:1 thrown in my face: "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." And when that didn't work, he had an easy out. It was my "hardened heart" that was to blame.The street preachers are steadfast in belief. Here one a little different. I am downtown and echoing off the building was the screams of a guy repeating over and over again. “Can anyone tell me why in this day and age, why the black man prays to a white god that did not exist?" Since he doesn't exist he can't be white or any race. What black peole pray to is an imaginary entity invented by Jews in ancient Israel passed down through the ages to gullible, mentally challenged people. Race is of no consequence when it comes to imaginary beings and gullible people. Totally agree. Today that type of statement is not even an eye opener. This happened back in the 70’s, and god not existing was blasphemy in some areas of the country which could get you in trouble.
This happened back in the 70’s, and god not existing was blasphemy in some areas of the country which could get you in trouble.You apparently haven't noticed, but that sort of blasphemy can still get you in trouble in parts of the country.