Trying to tolerate

Politics and Social Issues
61

@Lausten

That all happened long after white diseases killed millions and they just moved on to land that had been managed for centuries. Farms were already cleared, corn had been domesticated, they helped is survive. Then we came in with this idea of owning land and everything in it and we killed people who didn’t agree. Great tradition there Bob. So proud.

You’re quite right. The Natives help the pilgrims (also some of my ancestors, just like the Natives) to survive. Without the Natives to help the pilgrims, I probably wouldn’t be here today, given that some of my ancestors came off the Mayflower. If I could meet them, I’d say, “Aho”. But you are also right, the White man tries to own everything, but like the Natives, I don’t understand the concept of owning land, because as they say, you can’t pick it up and take it with you when you move. Sadly, some still kill people who don’t agree with them and I fear if we don’t do something about the dotard, it maybe very public.

And yes, everyone should be able to keep their songs and stories, but the White man (ie those like the dotard) like destroy such things.

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Short answer: Three generations ago, and before, there was war, your ancestors lost, the European invaders won. Get over it.

Unpacked: Don’t blame me for your troubles today, I wasn’t there then, neither were you. All I owe you is the same thing you owe me, an equal opportunity. Don’t ask me to give you an unfair advantage today because your ancestors, or you, wanted to hang on to a defeated culture. Assimilate or suffer the inevitable poverty.


I think they are as assimilated as they can be, Bob. After all, they do have some successful casinos.

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The Trumpian path is making tolerance less tolerable
True enough. Tolerance only works on tolerant people.
64

thatoneguy: “I think they are as assimilated as they can be, Bob.”

Finally, a voice of reason. The rest of the assimilation process will occur in the minds of those who think of themselves as not part of the whole. Most of the reason the ones who do not consider themselves as one of us was/is the fault of those who physically separated them from mainstream society. Some of us, like Mriana, still see them as apart in our minds and do nothing to encourage eliminating the physical separation. That physical separation, that other place of belonging, must be eliminated before the feeling of not belonging can be overcome. The melting pot would work better with a little pro-active stirring.

And, while I’m at it, the same goes for those other people we also keep as wards of the state. They need purpose for their lives just the same as the rest of us.

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That physical separation, that other place of belonging, must be eliminated
That's a strange definition of freedom.
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Mriana: “… like the Natives, I don’t understand the concept of owning land …”

Get real. You are the one complaining that “their land” was taken from them. How did it get to be theirs?

Claiming territory dates back beyond humans. Such claims have always been enforced by violence. The violence we use today is invested in law enforcement.

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The violence we use today is invested in law enforcement.
We have broken every treaty we ever made with Native Americans. You are talking about might makes right. That will come back to bite you or your children.
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Some of us, like Mriana, still see them as apart in our minds and do nothing to encourage eliminating the physical separation. That physical separation, that other place of belonging, must be eliminated before the feeling of not belonging can be overcome. The melting pot would work better with a little pro-active stirring.

I never said that. What I was saying was you cannot force them to be white, like you, and that’s what you want. Native Americans, just like Black people are entitled to their beautiful natural hair, should be able to live close to nature, just as my grandparents lived in Dora MO did. They should be allowed to have their Sweats and their Powwows. They are allowed those things now and before you say anything, my grandparents presented as white, like any good Native American Anglo-Saxon mix would, just as you would have it, but they lived in extremely rural country U.S.A., living close to nature, gardening, taking care of other animals, and living their own lives off the land. The roads there are just as rock and dirt as any reservation i, with the closest rural town being an hours drive, and there is your alleged assimilation. Your beloved U.S. isn’t necessarily city life. The U.S.A. is also country life with people living close to nature, doing their own thing (not necessarily what you may deem white), minding their own business, yet sharing their harvest with neighbours, trading for what they don’t have with neighbours, and loving it. There is nothing wrong with taking care of nature and living close to it. It is a way of life and if one prefers their way of life than that is part of being a U.S. citizen. It’s just too bad they have to be in the middle of nowhere to do, but that is where the land is in which to do.

I really think your idea of being a U.S. citizen is assimilating 100% with no culture activities or culture ways and acting like a White person, but that’s not the U.S. at all. The U.S. is African-Americans with natural “poofy hair” as my sons call it and Kwanza. It’s Sweats and Powwows. It’s Quiencies with Spanish spoken and Latino food. It’s Italian events with Italian food. It’s Shiva, bar/bat-mitzvahs, and Seders on various days, like a death, coming of age, Passover and other Jewish holidays. It’s a lot of different things and it’s not just WASP-ish crap of hot dogs, bologna, apple pies, and U.S. Football. It’s all sorts of cultures mixed together sharing their cultures and activities together. It’s also people doing their own thing. No one should be forced to assimilate like Borg. Everyone should be able to keep their cultural traditions and activities, without losing their stories or heritage. To be forced to do and I do mean forced, is to cause people to have psychological trauma, which the Natives suffer enough from due the history of mistreatment. This has also happened to Black people and it’s called generation trauma, which is also perpetuated by racial profiling and alike.

Here’s a few links to what happens with your forced assimilation (I have more, but you probably won’t read these because you don’t wish to be educated. You prefer ignorance. rolling eyes)

Everyone of all cultures and backgrounds: https://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/051214p18.shtml

The Jews: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/21/study-of-holocaust-survivors-finds-trauma-passed-on-to-childrens-genes

Here’s one specifically related to Native Americans: https://blog.nativehope.org/how-trauma-gets-passed-down-through-generations

This one is something that has happened on my father’s side. My grandmother on that was 1/2 Native and even though she never discussed the trauma, it showed https://blogs.psychcentral.com/caregivers/2016/07/inter-generational-trauma-5-ways-it-impacts-families/

Again, Bob, you know nothing and can’t even comprehend what I’ve been trying to tell you or you refuse to comprehend it because you don’t like knowledge or education, preferring ignorance, thinking it is bliss. You think you know more than any sociologist or psychologist or anyone who’s grown up or lived close to it.

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thatoneguy: “I think they are as assimilated as they can be, Bob.” Finally, a voice of reason. The rest of the assimilation process will occur in the minds of those who think of themselves as not part of the whole. Most of the reason the ones who do not consider themselves as one of us was/is the fault of those who physically separated them from mainstream society. Some of us, like Mriana, still see them as apart in our minds and do nothing to encourage eliminating the physical separation. That physical separation, that other place of belonging, must be eliminated before the feeling of not belonging can be overcome. The melting pot would work better with a little pro-active stirring. And, while I’m at it, the same goes for those other people we also keep as wards of the state. They need purpose for their lives just the same as the rest of us.
I don't know about all of this. Native Americans probably can't feel like they belong to mainstream America 100% because of race, history and the fact that there aren't many of them left -- which makes them want to preserve their heritage even more. I guess it's easier to do that on a reservation where they have some sovereignty.

I have only known a couple of natives and they were pretty assimilated into modern American culture but they also seemed to want to maintain a connection to their heritage. This is a very small sample size though, so maybe I’m wrong.

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thatoneguy: I have only known a couple of natives and they were pretty assimilated into modern American culture but they also seemed to want to maintain a connection to their heritage. This is a very small sample size though, so maybe I’m wrong.
Perhaps, you are not wrong.
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@Bob

Some of us, like Mriana, still see them as apart in our minds and do nothing to encourage eliminating the physical separation.

And you still don’t understand what I’m saying nor did you look at any of the links I posted. If you had you might learn something, but then again, you think you know it all and learning is bad.

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@thatoneguy You know of two, I met more than that, even shared Native American studies with them. Ute, Arapaho, Camanche, and more. They got their degree and went back to the Rez to use it there. They also hung onto their Native way of life, which many here don’t understand what that is. It is a very respectable way of living, but it doesn’t involve living in lodges and dressing in traditional dress every day. They do have Pow Wows and sweats, but it’s not an every day thing. They are very modern but they also have activists, like Water Protectors (I gave a link to this already). I had Mr Loonsfoot, some white people who don’t understand call him Chief Loonsfoot, but he’s not a chief nor do they still have those designations go and speak to my son’s class when they were little to tell the kids about their way of life. Some are not Xians, only practicing their religion. Others are both Xian and practice Native beliefs. However, they are just as “assimilated” into White culture as a practicing Jew or Muslim is. Bob doesn’t seem to understand this and thinks to be “assimilated” into [his] culture they have to become white, which IMHO is stupid. That’s not what this country is all about, but dotard follows like to believe such crap.

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Here you go Bob. This is today’s Native Americans:

https://nativenewsonline.net/

They are just as upset about the border wall as many of us are (except maybe you and his minions), but they are upset because it desecrates their burial grounds: https://nativenewsonline.net/currents/trumps-border-wall-desecrates-the-sacred/

https://indiancountrynews.com/

They live no differently than any other U.S. citizen, but like the Jews and Muslims they celebrate their their culture and religion. They also live no differently than anyone else in the world, which is no different than the way we do. That is society.

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More:

https://www.theonefeather.com/

https://www.lakotacountrytimes.com/

https://www.cherokeephoenix.org/

https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/

Native Americans are very proud of who they are and it’s not that they haven’t joined society, they have, but many also keep their identity and culture. Even Cherokees have kept their ways and I’m willing to bet those you know probably do too, but they don’t reveal that to you or if they don’t, then they are not considered Native anymore or they are thought of losing their way. The thing is, just because you think your ways are great and those who don’t conform to it are not “assimilated” doesn’t mean you aren’t demanding everyone be like you. Do you want the Jews to live as you do and not live their way of life? Do you want all black people to adopt your hair style? Your demands seem very racist to me.

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Mriana: The thing is, just because you think your ways are great and those who don’t conform to it are not “assimilated” doesn’t mean you aren’t demanding everyone be like you.
Assimilation is an unconscious process. I grew up in New York and everybody is there. It was like living in a microcosm of the whole world. And yet, people of all ethnicities assimilated to various degrees naturally. No one made an issue about being "American".
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As I said, which I know you’ll just love Bob, they get their education and then they use it to help their people- ie First Nation Health insurance

Check it:

FirstNation Health We are a licensed Third Party Administrator and brokerage firm established in response to the needs of the Native American business community to better understand the complex financial angles of a Healthcare Benefit Plan.

Notice it says, “Native American Business community”. Mind you, Native Americans have centers too, not just businesses, which there are two in the city I’m from and yes, it’s a city. There is a sizable Native American community. St. Louis and Kansas City also have Native American centers too and this is where they go if they need help.

Here’s your Native American attorneys fight for Civil Rights, much like the NAACP or the ACLU.

Some may even stay on a university campus to assist Native American students with Cultural Centers, not to assimilate but to be part of Multiculturalism and to help educate.

A Home Away From Home The First Nations Educational & Cultural Center (FNECC) supports American Indian and indigenous students in their transition to and achievement at Indiana University Bloomington with campus programs and an extended network of resources and information designed to inspire, encourage, and empower students for success.

Notice that they do not say they will assimilate them into American culture, but to inspire, encourage, and empower them for success. Most go back to be doctors or lawyers on the Rez, but it’s not at all as you view any of it.

Here’s another good example where people got their education and then went on to use their education to help their people: https://www.firstnations.org/ Their mission statement is on the “our values” page. If you read on that page, they say nothing about destroying Native American communities. It also does not say anything about them living on food stamps or in housing either.

Our mission is to strengthen American Indian economies to support healthy Native communities. We invest in and create innovative institutions and models that strengthen asset control and support economic development for American Indian people and their communities.

With the support of individuals, foundations, corporate and tribal donors, First Nations Development Institute improves economic conditions for Native Americans through technical assistance & training, advocacy & policy, and direct financial grants in five key areas:

Achieving Native Financial Empowerment
Investing in Native Youth
Strengthening Tribal & Community Institutions
Advancing Household & Community Asset-Building Strategies
Nourishing Native Foods & Health

And on their core values and guiding principles page it states:

At First Nations Development Institute, we strongly believe in Native communities
“We believe that when armed with appropriate resources, Native peoples hold the capacity and ingenuity to ensure the sustainable, economic, spiritual and cultural well-being of their communities.”

Again, there is nothing about assimilating anyone or anything about joining society. They are part of society with a rich culture. Even the Jews have a rich culture of their own and you’re not talking about forcing them to join society. I don’t know why you pick on the Natives and talk about the Rez as though it were from the 19th century. They are no different than anyone in the U.S. with their own cultural centers, but you seem to think they are different and refuse to join society. They’ve done that and taken what they’ve learn back to their people and helped them with the same various groups we all have. They have Native American Churches (not Xian), they have cultural centers, as I said, just like every other group in the U.S., doctors, lawyers, medical groups, schools (like the Jews, their schools teach their religious views and language), newspapers, radio stations, etc. They aren’t living in the 19th century in lodges. In case you wonder about their religion, yes, it does deal with Mother Earth and Wakan Tokan (Lakota for Great Spirit). Whatever the case, their culture is just as important as the Jewish/Hebrew culture, the Muslim culture, or any other culture in the U.S. and they are still part of society. The thing is you don’t understand any of that and don’t want to understand it, while I took Native American studies, which, just like my African-American studies classes had mostly black people in them, had mostly Native Americans. I hung out with them and they talked about the Rez and many other things. I was invited to Pow Wows and Sweat, and I seriously doubt you were. If you had done any of these things, you’d know you are just blowing smoke with your current views and I don’t mean smoke signals or a pipe either. Incidentally, I have smoked a peace pipe and that too, after the sweat was a good experience.

That said, I’ve probably just wasted 3 posts on you, @Bob, and you probably won’t read a thing because you don’t want to be educated, because in your opinion, ignorance is bliss.

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@Sree

Assimilation is an unconscious process. I grew up in New York and everybody is there. It was like living in a microcosm of the whole world. And yet, people of all ethnicities assimilated to various degrees naturally. No one made an issue about being “American”.

Yes, but Jews were still Jews, with their own subculture, practicing their traditions and probably the Hasidic Jews still walked about in their traditional dress if you saw them at all. There is no 100% assimilation though, unless people were to give up their traditions entirely, which means giving up religions and cultural practices. Even non-temple going Jews still observe Passover, Chanaka, and other Jewish holidays, just as Xians observe their Easter and Xmas and other Xian holidays. As I learned in my sociology classes, there is one large culture in a single country with many subcultures within it and that is what I’ve been talking about this whole time.

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Anyone who advocates “us and them” advocates for cultism. Whenever you choose to separate yourself and your group from the rest of us you are practicing cultism, whether you use physical or mental separation. When you do this you say we are different, we will not include you.

You rail against the cults of white supremacists, neo-nazis, skin heads, all religions and probably the Masons, but are wiling to accept that Jews, Muslims and native peoples should separate themselves and exclude non-Jews, non-Muslims and non-native peoples and deserve special favor and consideration from those not eligible to be included in the cult. I’m sure Mriana knows all about “Indian preference”. Ask President wannabe Warren about it.

Hypocrites. You preach fairness, diversity and inclusiveness, but practice profiling, exclusion and preference based on ethnicity.

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@Bob , again, with all due respect, you have not idea what you are talking about and grasping at straws because you want us to accept ideas that destroy whole groups of people. It’s not cultism. There is a vast difference between the White Supremacists and Jews, Native Americans, and Muslims. White Supremacists (KKK, neo-nazis, skinheads, Neo-Cons, etc) and for S&G lets throw in the Nation of Islam too are all racists hate groups. You’ll find that info here https://www.splcenter.org/ Those are all hate groups: https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

From the second link of the SPLC:

ALL HATE GROUPS
HAVE BELIEFS OR PRACTICES THAT ATTACK OR MALIGN AN ENTIRE CLASS OF PEOPLE, TYPICALLY FOR THEIR IMMUTABLE CHARACTERISTICS.

I am not going to be fair and inclusive to a Neo-Nazi or a Klansman who wants to exterminate my family and friends. To be all inclusive to include hate groups is ridiculous. When you talk about hate groups you are talking about groups of people brainwashed to hate those who are not like them. It’s the total opposite of what we are saying. The various hate groups, such as the KKK and Nation of Islam want white people, in case of the KKK or Black people in the case of the Nation of Islam to reign supreme and oppress all others to the point of annihilation.

We are not excluding anyone except people who are Supremacist groups, which a totally different thing. We are being inclusive by sharing the various traditions of various [sub]cultures into the mainstream and not saying you can’t do that if you want to be part of the whole. The opposite is true of a Klansman, who says, “If you aren’t white like us, you can’t exist.” I ran into the Grand dragon once. He’s nothing more than a scared little boy in a grown man’s body. He’s afraid lily white skin will disappear if we include all groups and their traditions, and that’s so far from the truth it’s not funny. However, “Strange Fruit” is not a cultural tradition. It’s an abomination to human rights and a crime of murder. Cross burning is not a cultural tradition. It is a sacrilege. (Yes, I said that, because hating people of colour and burning a cross is not the Xianity I grew in) Tarring and feathering is not a cultural tradition. It is again a violation of human rights and a crime. I could go on and on how White Supremacist groups do not practice cultural tradition but instead practice crimes and human rights violations.

Personally, I’m very grateful for the Lovings (Loving v Virginia) because without them, it would still be illegal for my first marriage to exist and illegal for my sons to exist (in an indirect way). One of my dreams is that this world grows up to accept Jewish traditions, Latino traditions, Native American traditions, etc.

So when you say including Supremists groups, which are cults, into all inclusiveness you are saying you want crimes against humanity and civil/human rights violations to be accepted in the mainstream and that is not tolerating anything. It is supporting hate groups and I do not support hate groups. You cannot spell red hat without hatred and I do not support that either.

I’m sorry if you have not gotten this message by now, but your ideas concerning Native Americans and probably others are racist.

One more thing- I don’t know what “Indian Preference” is, but I do know if I have a choice between going with a Klansman or a Native American (even a Black person or Latino or Jew, it’s interchangeable) I’d go with the Native (or the black person or the Latino or the Jew), because I abhor hatred (which you can’t spell “red hat” without it).

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Is this KKK crap what you want us to be all inclusive with too? If so you are really sick, because such things are crimes against humanity, violations of human rights, and murder. It not even a cultural tradition for any decent white complected person. Don’t talk about all inclusiveness and say you want to include the KKK and other White Supremacist groups, because it shows you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about and that you support crimes and violence against people of colour. As a side note, a Jewish poet saw the historical picture of the hanging and wrote the song and Billy Holiday sung the song, but it refers to a historical event. This is what you are saying you support: