Mriana: “You do not understand. There is a cultural identity for everyone.”
I think you do not understand. There is a cultural history for everyone. Anyone can cling to the past if they want to, but what will it get them, other than being left out and left behind? The world, and this nation, as it is today is just what it is today. No one will change it or improve it by retreating from it.
Mriana: “No one is asking them to stay on the Rez.”
When the reservations were established the government demanded they stay on the Rez. That idea may have made some sense for that post-invasion post-war time. There should have been some exit plan. Today it makes no sense at all. What has been done over the years has made native peoples dependent on the government. That is the worst thing we could ever do to them. The same is true for people on welfare and in public housing. For many, government handouts and support are more attractive than earning a living. We keep people as if they are our pets, not our equals. What dignity can they have in that system? We need an exit plan for them and for us. If we owe them anything, we owe them that.
@Bob I told you I not only took Native American studies, but also attend some of the cultural events. I truly believe you do not understand because you are on the outside looking in and seeing them live in housing etc. That’s not their culture nor is it their choice. Those you speak of have forgotten their culture. The Reservations were created to force them to conform to the white man’s ways. If they refused to conform then they could not leave the Rez and often the children taken from the Rez at an early age and taken to the Carlisle Schools were often dumped back on to the Rez when they grew up and then the language, among other things, was lost to them. Today, they can leave the Rez, yes, but they must conform to white man’s ways, not Native Ways, which means giving up living close to Mother Earth and not following their way of life, which isn’t living in housing or being poor, as you attribute it to. IMHO, you are totally confused about which is culture and which is oppression forced on people and insist that “they can be an Indian on Saturday nights at the Y”. You have no idea, that the Rez is THEIR land and they don’t government destroying by drilling for oil and polluting the water, etc. This song is still true today concerning corporate and government greed, as well as the racism etc. You have no idea what the government and corporations still do today.
Mriana, hanging on to history is not going to help anyone. That society is gone and the culture with it. The culture on the Rez is what it is today. It is not good, it is not wonderful. It should be eliminated, exchanged for something better. That new thing cannot be history Maybe a hundred and fifty years ago the buffalo would have supported the people. That’s not going to happen again, ever.
You can support isolating people from the rest of the US but you’re not helping them. If you try and keep the old ways, those ways will die a slow death over generations and the people will suffer for generations. If you let it go we will be one nation, finally, and the people will not be apart from it.
@Bob With all due respect, you don’t know what you are talking about and yet you expect me to give up my education and experience with Natives and believe you. What you don’t seem to realize is that Natives today do not live in lodges (what you call teepees or wigwams). Rez are no much like rural U.S.A. with farms and small towns. Young people get their educations at universities, much like Missouri State University and then go back home (to the Rez) to help their people with their education. There are doctors, psychologists, attorneys etc. No it’s not wonderful on the Rez anymore than Dora, Missouri or Ava Missouri is, but it is their property. They don’t constantly wear historical garb either. They were the same clothes we do on a daily basis, except for when they have a PowWow or a Sweat, which is no different than our gatherings except they are traditional. They are hardly isolated given that they do leave the Rez to get an education at various Universities around the nation. You truly have no idea what the heck you are talking about and I’m not about to give up my experiences I’ve had with Natives in favour of your ideas which are ill-informed.
In response to Mr. Lausten’s comments about Arthur Brooks,
I’ve heard Mr. Brooks express his views for a number of years and from what I can gather he’s never opposed a tax cut to the very wealthiest, fully supports funding cuts that adversely affect the poor and working class and in general sees no role for government at any level in promoting any egalitarian measures that promote social or economic equality. He reminds me of another man named Brooks. David Brooks who also wrote a book a few years ago about the need for all of us to be kind to each other, how nice. David Brooks of the New York Times who was unceasing in his complete support for the Iraq War apparently sees no contradiction in advocating for war and writing books about political civility. These hypocrites are trying to change their public image into something more ethically palatable and the best way for them to do that is to write books about morality and high minded principle. The same thing is attempted when George W. Bush who is in my mind no more than a war criminal suddenly becomes a painter and doesn’t want to talk about 500,000 dead Iraqi citizens. He’s much rather talk about his portraits of dogs than what he did as president. Condilesa Rice very much wanted to become the commissioner for the National Football League for the same reason. That being; to change the subject about their public life. In the latter years of his life LBJ had shoulder length hair and looked like the hippies who so fiercely protested his immoral Vietnam War. These people are not the “new and improved” versions of themselves. They are charlatans, liars and impostors.
Bob says "Unpacked: Don’t blame me for your troubles today, I wasn’t there then, neither were you.
All I owe you is the same thing you owe me, an equal opportunity. Don’t ask me to give you an unfair advantage today because your ancestors, or you, wanted to hang on to a defeated culture. Assimilate or suffer the inevitable poverty."
How funny, when I think of the trumpsters they are all about whining about the impacts of immigrants when we’ve been inviting them into our country for ever? Ever read what’s on the Statue of Liberty? They are all crying about foreigners taking away our jobs, when it’s our own business leaders who exported their jobs off to cheaper foreign places. They piss and moan about regulations, and ignore that we are shoving millions of people into spaces that used to contain thousands.
The entire right wing agenda hinges on ignoring how many of our problem are caused by our own poor choices,
or the inevitable consequences of making to so god-awful many babies, and not protecting our natural life enabling resources and waters and landscapes and atmosphere.
Christ you ever think through Ayn Randian thinking or the chest beating brag that Too Much Is Never Enough, Greed Is Good and that ever increasing profits is the only way to operate an economy - never ever ever fathoming (nor giving a damned about) the chain of events we put into motion.
Always blaming others, never taking responsibility, except when it comes to vandalizing.
Delusional and unaware is what Bob’s trumpian logic sounds like - The nasty greedy blind leading the powerless scared angry resentful* blind and the rest too whimped out and scared and overwhelmed to stand up.
*resentful, but never never ever willing to accept responsibility or to learn from their mistakes. Such as that rabid frothing Lindsey, who looks like he belongs in an institution, rather than being one of most powerful traitors in Congress. But he shuts up the Democrat plenty well, so they all love him.
Why the hell can’t the right wing Assimilate to the reality of a crowded small planet, or the fact that our existence depends on a healthy environment.
Assimilate indeed, Bob your trumpian double standards and glaring blindspots, and lack of curiosity or compassion is nothing less than disgustingly tragic. Your disinterest in learning and a little self-skepticism is nothing less than suicidal in the long term. But then belonging to a demographic where self-cannibalizing is a way of business, guess I shouldn’t expect too much from you trumpeters or the nightmare you folks are so cluelessly creating for all of us.
Even if I can agree with small titbits of your many comments and claims now and then.
Mriana: “What you don’t seem to realize is that Natives today do not live in lodges (what you call teepees or wigwams). Rez are no much like rural U.S.A. with farms and small towns. Young people get their educations at universities, much like Missouri State University and then go back home (to the Rez) to help their people with their education. … They were the same clothes we do on a daily basis, except for when they have a PowWow or a Sweat, which is no different than our gatherings except they are traditional. They are hardly isolated given that they do leave the Rez to get an education at various Universities around the nation.”
Seems like you just made my point that we have the same culture. You were the one bemoaning the loss of their historical culture. Seems like many have pretty much assimilated already. I don’t believe any of them would go back to living as their ancestors did. I doubt if there’s more than one who could live a year without the white man’s steel, aluminum, glass, fabrics, eyeglasses, medicines, electricity, communication and transportation networks, footwear, improved seeds, etc, etc. I don’t begrudge them their playtime and celebrations of their history, but don’t tell me they see that as part of their culture today.
And just to let you know, I have lived with, met, shared meals and socialized with native people in Alaska, Nevada and several states in the South. I have relatives and in-laws that are native people, Latino and African-american. I have not had to take classes in it, I have lived it.
Yes Mr. Lausten, I should have made that point in my earlier post. Your approach in finding common ground is sorely needed in this country and it was in that vein that you offered the article.
Why the hell can’t the right wing Assimilate to the reality of a crowded small planet, or the fact that our existence depends on a healthy environment???
Or dealing with the reality of having millions of people living in places that used to support thousands?
I doubt if there’s more than one who could live a year without the white man’s steel, aluminum, glass, fabrics, eyeglasses, medicines, electricity, communication and transportation networks, footwear, improved seeds, etc, etc.
This is the problem. You think white people created all these things by themselves. It took the whole world to get where we are. Everyone should be able keep their stories and songs and history of how they contributed.
Lausten: “You’re either not for real, or have no idea what you are talking about”
It is not a difficult passage.
Perhaps you would rather comment on Ananias and Sapphira. I’m sure you know the story. For those who don’t know it is a warning against men instituting communism and gives the reason it doesn’t work as because it is not in the nature of people to live that way.
I’m also sure you know the origin of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” Maybe in utopia, but not in the real world.
Lausten: “You think white people created all these things by themselves.”
Wow, shades of Obama: “you didn’t build that”.
Oh yes, I forgot all about the steel mills, glass factories, electricity generating plants and oil refineries the native peoples had before the European invasion. I’ve been think about starting a collection of 17th and 18th century native peoples’ texts on science and technology. Do you know of any collectors who might be willing to part with some?
Lausten: “Everyone should be able keep their stories and songs and history of how they contributed.”
Absolutely.
Maybe Mriana can give us some examples “of how they contributed” since she has studied it. The only two I am familiar with is the “code talkers”, a really great thing, but that is way too recent to count as a history one would pine for, and the development of the Cherokee syllabary by Sequoyah, an individual and an achievement to be proud of, but one that did not contribute much, directly, to the country as a whole.
Citizenschallenge-v.3: " ignoring how many of our problem are caused by our own poor choices,"
All of them. Actions have consequences. You reap what you sow, more than you sow, later than you sow.
Let’s fix the drug abuse problem.
Allow convicted drug abusers to choose either incarceration or denial of all Federal and State benefits, including drivers’ licenses, gun ownership, bank accounts, credit/debit cards and confiscation of all personal and real property for 18 months or until they remain clean for 12 continuous months whichever is longer. The object would be to make prison preferable for the convicted.
Execute all drug traffickers.
Citizenschallenge-v.3: “whining about the impacts of immigrants”
Let’s fix the immigration problem.
Let’s propose an arrangement among the US, Canada and Mexico wherein each nation will give a law-abiding citizen of the other nations a temporary visa and/or green card for 30 days so that he/she can find a job or a residence. We could allow that visa and/or green card to continue in force as long as the man/woman remains employed, or self supporting, with a lapse of not more than 30 days every 120 days. Let’s give the “dreamers” immediate full citizenship upon application or a temporary visa until they reach majority (age 18) and are eligible to apply or decline. Let’s amend the Constitution so that children born on US soil no longer receive automatic citizenship but any child who has at least one parent who is a US citizen does receive automatic US citizenship no matter where the child is born.
Citizenschallenge-v.3: “the inevitable consequences of making to so god-awful many babies”
Its the surplus population, Mr Scrooge. Eugenics everyone?
I’ve been think about starting a collection of 17th and 18th century native peoples’ texts on science and technology.
That all happened long after white diseases killed millions and they just moved on to land that had been managed for centuries. Farms were already cleared, corn had been domesticated, they helped is survive. Then we came in with this idea of owning land and everything in it and we killed people who didn't agree. Great tradition there Bob. So proud.
There are parts of what you said that made sense. This is typical of people like you. You have crazy ideas like death penalties, but you have thought about the economics of immigration. Trouble is, you are unreasonable. You have a skewed sense of history. You don't want to listen. So ideas get lost in the preference of having it your way.
Bob, Native Americans have not lost their historical culture. They continue it with Sweats, Powwows, spiritual beliefs, and their way of life. I gave you a couple of links that showed this. So no, I didn’t prove your point at all. Even people in Egypt, Ethiopia, and Japan have houses like we do. So again, you don’t know what you are talking about and I noticed I’m not the only one saying that.
I can tell you what Natives contributed and even what Black people have contributed, but why bother? You think being white is the greatest thing in the world and everyone else’s culture is not so good, therefore they all need to join the human race, which is white, in your opinion. You probably believe Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin, when it really was a slave. Whitney just took credit for it and he still get credit for it. So what’s the point. The conquerors write history and you take it as gospel that that’s the truth.
What you don’t understand is that the white man came along and decided to corral them in a certain portion of land, because they could not enslave Natives, like they could Africans. Natives knew the land too well. The white man gave the Natives blankets with smallpox, attempting genocide. The white man tried to exterminate them in many different ways and almost wiped out all the Natives. After Wounded Knee (Sioux) and Trail of Tears (Cherokee) and moving others to reservations, the white man still tried to exterminate the Natives. They also kidnapped their children and confined them to Carlisle Schools, in which the “savage was beaten out of them”, including language, never to see their parents until adulthood. Once an adult they were thrown back onto the Rez not knowing anything about their people. By this time a lot of psychological damage was done. Meanwhile, the mother they never knew, was basically spaded like an animal so she couldn’t have any more children. The White Man was a horrid nightmare all the way around. I don’t see why they should contribute anything to the White man after all of the White man was exactly what they called the Natives- savage. The White man has been the savage, not the Native American or even the Black people, but you think the White man is great, even though the Rich male WASPs continue being savages towards everyone that’s not the 1%. I really don’t see how being white is so great, with such a history, the persists in a one form or another even today.
