Trump claims ‘Absolute Right’ to Solicit Collusion

I’ve called trump an absolutist and get dismissed. I wonder if this will be a watershed event.

 

THE NATIONAL INTEREST 9:19 A.M.
The Only Issue Left Is Trump’s ‘Absolute Right’ to Solicit Collusion
By Jonathan Chait

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/trump-absolute-right-collusion-ukraine-biden-impeachment.html

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIX_MjBG9og

 

Trump Claims 'Absolute Right' In Asking Foreign Help In Corruption | MSNBC
This is going to get way more interesting than I believe any of us are prepared for.

Oh Tee, here’s another example - why do they keep saying to “investigate corrupt” when the more we learn about it, the more the really is that it’s all about “fabricating a corruption story”

Perfect example of playing by trump’s GOP Script.

I’ve gotta tear myself away from this damned thing, I have lots to do. Will look at your comments with interest this evening.

So this stuff has already been demoted to ho hum - same old shit, new day, welcome to our brave me world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/03/opinion/mueller-trump-executive-power.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/03/22/why-president-trump-resembles-a-pre-revolution-french-monarch/

https://providencemag.com/2019/02/absolutism-resurrected-why-we-should-be-cautious-expansion-executive-power-obama-trump/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/donald-trumps-inner-circle-key-figures-driving-presidents-policy/

https://www.biography.com/us-president/donald-trump

We are now facing the prospect of having a POTUS who has been determined by Impeachment to be above the law. OR the Repubs could take their last best shot at moving on from the Trump era. They could remove him from office and still have time to get together a credible candidate for the 2020 Presidential run.

 

Here’s a very wise woman. We could all learn from listening to her very closely:

Susan Rice: Trump Proposing To Sell Out U.S. On China For Personal Gain

MSNBC - Oct 5, 2019

Susan Rice, former U.S. ambassador to the U.N., talks with Rachel Maddow about Donald Trump’s brazen public solicitations for foreign help in the 2020 election, and how domestic political divisions are America’s greatest national security vulnerability. Aired on 10/04/19.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbyKtv46-3Y&t=1590s

… bear through the first few seconds - didn’t see that coming when I selected it - the interview is still worth listening to in its entirety.

The title to this is not only very misleading, it is outright false. He didn’t do anything like claiming to have an absolute right to “solicit collusion”. In fact, in the follow-up tweet to the one that comes from he actually said it was NOT about his campaign, it was about corruption. Not that I’m defending Mushroom Man or anything. Far from it. I’m just a big fan of the truth. I can see the Huffington Post as a left-wing rag paper ever since I read an alarmist story against the Republican plan to allow employees to opt to take paid time off in place of overtime pay. To read the article you would think that this was slavery 2.0. Then I read the bill. It was optional, it could be started and stopped any time, there were protections against employer abuses and it gave the employer no new powers over the employee. It was like 2 minutes of reading if I recall.

The point is when you use hyperbole and rhetoric, yeah, it may drum up your base. But it’s a turn off for fair-minded people who think for themselves and those who haven’t made up their minds yet. If someone who is undecided catches you in the wrong, let’s say “hyperbolic claim”, you may have just won the guy you hate a vote.

Here’s the tweet

As the President of the United States, I have an absolute right, perhaps even a duty, to investigate, or have investigated, CORRUPTION, and that would include asking, or suggesting, other Countries to help us out!
The statement not long after, about China, was something like, 'there I said it', and again claiming the right. It's so hard to know what Trump really believes because he is a master of illusion. He might believe that a conspiracy theory is the same as actual corruption that needs investigating. He might think it doesn't matter that he's doing it on Biden but not his own family. Who knows. Whatever he's doing, it disqualifies him for the Presidency.

 

I truly believe that he is one of those people who can make something up on the spot, knowing the facts don’t support it, and absolutely and fully believe his own lie without question. I think he’s just that kind of stupid. Looking back at Nixon’s interviews after he resigned I actually see some personality similarities too.

Trump called for help from China and Ukraine (in front of the free press) to investigate the Bidens (for corruption). The actual terrible corruption was what Trump did, systematically, along with a lot of his staff, to force Ukraine into coming up with dirt on Biden to help Trump’s campaign. There is not much negative one can say about Trump that is hyperbole. More likely it would be understatement.

 

I think Trump simply does not care what the truth is, as long as the version of his truth that he wants to get across is ultimately believed well enough by enough people for him to get his way.

I can’t disagree with that assessment. All along he’s been doing this crap in the open and it has left people’s heads spinning about what to do about it. Republicans, the masters of spinning things to the point of just ludicrous lies that we all know aren’t true, would say that he was joking, he didn’t mean it, it was just hyperbole. And, in fact, that’s what they’re back to saying about the interview where he added China to the list of foreign governments to solicit political help from. But for the phone call, when he essentially said that he needed that in exchange for the military aid he had blocked so that he, personally, could get something out of it when he released it, that excuse doesn’t work there.

Of course the White House and the Republican party will work to obstruct all investigations for as long as they can just like they did for every other investigation. And they’ll use terms like “nothing burger” to describe this horrific violation of US law, abuse of power and corruption of the American system. Eventually, however, once there’s a Democrat in the White House again, Republicans will be frantically working to make sure this kind of thing never happens again (while there’s a Democrat in the White House).

I’m actually shocked and outraged that there is not more action being taken against his illegal executive orders which bypass Congress for things like funding and weapons sales to Saudi Arabia. I don’t think people realize exactly how that is screwing our system of government.

Normally it takes 50% of the House + 50% of the Senate + the President to get something like that passed. If they want to bypass the president then it takes 67% of the House + 67% of the Senate to get it passed. That’s how it is supposed to work.

But when the President sings an illegal executive order, bypassing Congress, what happens then? NOW it takes 67% of the House + 67% of the Senate to STOP the action. That means it only takes 34% of the House OR 34% of the Senate + the President to get something passed! What should take 50% + 50% + 1 to pass now only takes 0% + 34% + 1 to pass because they need a 67% majority in BOTH chambers of Congress to BLOCK it. This absolutely demolishes our system of government! I simply cannot believe that people are not making a HUGE deal about this.

EDIT: Actually, doing this Trump + Mitch McConnell BY THEMSELVES could pass anything the two agreed on, EVEN IF 100% of BOTH chambers of Congress (excluding McConnell) would vote against it. McConnell simply has to refuse to bring it up for a vote and just TWO PEOPLE can bypass our entire system of government! Of course, there are protections. There is the third branch of government. The meandering branch that will look into it “sooner or later”, after the president appoints a few more extremists to it.

It will be interesting to see whether a bipartisan effort can be successful to stop Trump’s tweeted order to withdraw from Syria (leaving the Kurds to be annihilated). Our foreign policy is being destroyed.

Not to mention the alliances he started destroying on day one. Hell, Russia’s pretty much all he’s got left and they’re certainly not America’s ally, though they are Trumps…kind of. Maybe puppeteers would be a better word?

We really need an IQ test and psychological evaluation to be mandatory to be president. A man so stupid he can be manipulated into doing anything by doling out or withholding praise and by comparing him to his “enemies” is not fit to be president of a book club.

We really need an IQ test and psychological evaluation to be mandatory to be president.
And who would create and administer that test? It would have to be a group with oversight, ultimately the will of the people, supported by a press that helped keep us informed. Oh wait, that's the system that's not working! Nothing personal Wid, that's the same response I give every time I see that idea. Pretty sure, and supported with data, if more people voted, these problems would go away. The ideas of The Enlightenment are easily accepted to someone who is willing to do some basic education and self reflection, that's been going on across cultures for centuries now. But that work was never finished and the missing pieces are exploited by people with lots of money.
We really need an IQ test and psychological evaluation to be mandatory to be president.
My regular coffee group consists of very smart people who love Trump. They would all pass an IQ and psych test yet all would fight for Biblically derived laws and rules. In the upcoming Canadian federal election in a few weeks they will vote for the government that reflects those same values.

As much as it sometimes seems like religious people are ‘dumb’, they aren’t. Sure they’re less educated in many cases, but that’s not a great indicator of IQ or other forms of intelligence.

Trump is an example of a buffoon falling into a powerful role because of the zeitgeist and way the electoral system works. More typically it would be a Pence 0r Cruz-like person terrorizing you and me and most others on here.

Because a non-buffoon wouldn’t be as brazen or bumbling when breaking the law, we’re able to see what a more typical POTUS could be doing far more craftily and carefully. [How’s that for a silver-lining in the political storm we see every day?]

@lausten

It was an offhand comment born out of frustration, not an actual suggestion.

@3point14rat

I don’t know any of them but would vote for any one of them over Trump. Fighting to get your beliefs into law is one thing. Being tricked into signing off on a stupid mission which gets Americans killed by someone saying simply, “Obama wouldn’t have the balls to do it”, that’s another thing entirely.

3 point, You said, “… a non-buffoon wouldn’t be as brazen or bumbling when breaking the law, we’re able to see what a more typical POTUS could be doing far more craftily and carefully…”.

That statement, you gave as a “silver lining” (to having our current POTUS). I think that the public view of the POTUS’s corruption, collusions, national betrayals, constitution eroding, and outright law breaking… all in view of the public, while Trump ALWAYS goes unpunished, is part of an ever more insinuating pathway towards an autocracy of Trump.

A more typical POTUS would not be manipulating 24/7 to increase his power towards the goal of potential dictatorship over the USA. I think that his “bumbling and buffoonery” have enhanced his efficacy in moving in that direction.

 

 

Okay. Weighing in, FWIW, as a professional wordsmith, and as someone who thinks Trump is a threat to world democracy.

I agree with @widdershins about the title of this post. @citizenschallengev3 can say what he wants, but if this were a headline in the media, it would piss me off.

It reminds me of the debate on late-term abortion in the 2016 campaign: “If elected, Hillary pledges to allow moms to kill their unborn babies until the moment of delivery!”

Let’s compare…

Trump's tweet: As the President of the United States, I have an absolute right, perhaps even a duty, to investigate, or have investigated, CORRUPTION, and that would include asking, or suggesting, other Countries to help us out!

MSNBC:
Trump claims ‘absolute right’ in asking foreign help in corruption

The Intelligencer:
The Only Issue Left Is Trump’s ‘Absolute Right’ to Solicit Collusion

CCv3:
TRUMP CLAIMS ‘ABSOLUTE RIGHT’ TO SOLICIT COLLUSION


The problem is that even though CCv3 correctly offset the verbatim words as the Intelligencer did, he also phrased it in the form of a quote (which the Intelligencer did not do), therefore making it hyperbolic and wrong (unless he is writing satire).

This is a bit different, but it reminds me: Back in November 2016, Trump was blathering on about Obamacare, and in a speech he said, “The Democrat plan will obliterate Obamacare!”

There was a media hullabaloo, about how stupid Trump was for apparently not realizing the Democrats are FOR Obamacare. And it irritated me, because in context, he PLAINLY meant to say “Medicare.” It was a slip of the tongue. I wrote about it here.

https://qr.ae/TW2cwC

If after the Mueller report showed that Trump benefited from the Russian interference, and we all saw Trump proclaim “Russia, if you’re listening… get Hillary’s emails.” We saw him proclaim this on TV. And now we see him on TV declaring that he wants Ukraine and China to get dirt on one of his potential 2020 opponents. And we see that he always avoids punishment for soliciting collusion. That seems pretty close to him claiming a right to collusion. Maybe it’s not a right, but just one of Trump’s many privileges, on his way to the Autocracy of Trump .

 

@timb

Hyperbole is hyperbole. I prefer facts.

But you did just touch on one thing that really gets under my skin, Republican’s super power. They seem to have the power to tell a bold-faced lie that you know is a lie, but make you unable to call them liars when they do it. Case in point, the North Carolina district maps where they explicitly asked for voting results by race, then acted all indignant when people said it was racist. And we weren’t allowed to outright say, “You’re a damned liar!” They do this all the time. Republicans are kings of lies. Laws requiring a woman to endure rape by a piece of medical equipment in order to get an abortion are somehow about women’s health. We know it’s not true. We know it’s a vile form of punishment for women daring to defy their male betters in the minds of Republicans. But we, for some reason, have to give them the benefit of the doubt. We can’t just say, “You frigging disgust me you worthless, rapist piece of shit”. And a moment of silence in schools is somehow not about school prayer. It’s NOT about forcing my children to sit and observe someone else’s archaic magic ritual so that their silly magical beliefs are normalized. It’s NOT about teaching my children that they need to respect this magic ritual. And it’s NOT about forcing my children into subjugation by those who observe those magic rituals because they have control issues. It’s about…um…“reflection”. And even the courts buy this crap, though I’m sure most of the time it’s because they want to and the excuse is good enough to allow them to.

@Timb

 

If after the Mueller report showed that Trump benefited from the Russian interference, and we all saw Trump proclaim “Russia, if you’re listening… get Hillary’s emails.” We saw him proclaim this on TV. And now we see him on TV declaring that he wants Ukraine and China to get dirt on one of his potential 2020 opponents. And we see that he always avoids punishment for soliciting collusion. That seems pretty close to him claiming a right to collusion. ...
I don't know what it is about this forum (CFI), but I feel like I'm never making myself clear, and I have to keep repeating so many things I have said before.

Anyway:

Yes. I am absolutely fully aware of everything Trump has done. He has clearly cooperated with the Russians all along, in secret and in plain sight, and his campaign was up to their ass in collusion… I have posted on this. I have commented on this.

My point isn’t that he DIDN’T collude.

My point is that he didn’t SAY he has the right to collude. It is clear to US what he is doing, but I don’t think it is “collusion” IN HIS MIND, and he did not SAY that.

Words matter. Everyone lies, but at least OUR side lies a bit less than the GOP and I like to keep it that way.

This is like the 4th thread today in which I have to keep clarifying and clarifying. I probably should just stay out.

 

 

I am not asking you to clarify, Tee. I am aware of your knowledge on these issues. And I am in the same ideological ballpark as you close to 100% of the time. Your posts are a sanctuary of excellence. But fortunately not always perfect. (Else not much fuel for discussion. And you would probably be a Buddha and your time on this plain about done.)

I want zero lies. But as you say the other side does that much more and astoundingly effectively. The thing is, in this gun fight, (Trump and repug lies being analogous to assault rifles and our lies being analogous to pea shooters) how can we win?