High Crimes and Misdemeanors

The current defense of Trump declares that If there is no violation of Law, a president cannot be impeached.

But the Constitution specifically declares that a “high misdemeanor” can be sufficient reason for impeachment.

The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials. Offenses by officials also include ordinary crimes, but perhaps with different standards of proof and punishment than for non-officials, on the grounds that more is expected of officials by their oaths of office.

Indeed the offense may not even be a breach of criminal statute. See Harvard Law Review “The majority view is that a president can legally be impeached for ‘intentional, evil deeds’ that ‘drastically subvert the Constitution and involve an unforgivable abuse of the presidency’ — even if those deeds didn’t violate any criminal laws.”


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_crimes_and_misdemeanors

T rump’s shysters cannot argue the facts of the case, as T rump did and is doing what he is accused of in the Articles of Impeachment. So they are going after bogus process issues. They will argue black is white, or whatever redistribution of reality that is convenient to get their client off the hook.

He now has former lawyers of OJ Simpson, Serial Child Molester Epstein, sex abuser Weinstein, and then Ken Starr who is claiming the OPPOSITE of things he claimed when Impeaching Bill Clinton (for the horrifying crime of lying about not having sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky). IOW, If T rump is a twit, you must acquit.

Btw, T rump’s lie total, while in office, is now topping 16 thousand.

Unfortunately for Moscow Mitch, everyone who’s not a Republican hack says there WAS a violation of the law, including the nonpartisan government agency whose actual job it is to determine if there was a violation of the law, the Government Accountability Office.

That law violation that T rump did and continues to try to do is only Article I of the Impeachment.

Article II is obstruction of Congress. T rump has been obstructing in front of all of our faces and getting away with it, for his entire term. He claims “executive power” beyond anything that it was ever warranted to apply to. EVERY PERSON in his administration and ALL relevant documentation, he claims the power to prevent from ever reaching congress. Beyond this he also uses the legal system to prevent breakdown of his bogus claims. Subpoenas become moot to T rump, because he can get them held up indefinitely (often til they are moot).

I will repeat the prediction that I have been making for months. T rump will not suffer any repercussions in Impeachment that would limit his continuing to engage in his corrupt, illegal practices. The Republicans in the Senate (now they are Trumpublicans) will get him off. T rump will claim he once again defeated the “hoax investigations” and will claim that he is completely exonerated. He will continue to use the power of the Presidency to gain advantage in the coming election and it won’t matter if he does so illegally, because he is being given the keys to the kingdom in which T rump IS and WILL BE ABOVE THE LAW. He will effectively be a Dictator. As such, he will probably be able to undermine the next election and keep himself in power.

In this country we employ a philosophy of government that whatever is not forbidden is allowed. IOW if some action is not specifically defined by law as a criminal offense, then doing said act isn’t a crime. Does anyone really believe that politicians and others in various positions of power haven’t for eons used their position for personal gain? Use, and abuse, of power is nothing new. Does anyone believe that senior politicians don’t bully less senior politicians, that senior people in all walks of life don’t bully less senior people and employees? Deals are made in the House and in the Senate every day. Quid pro quo is the definition of a deal.

I don’t see where Trump’s actions “drastically subvert the Constitution and involve an unforgivable abuse”. It looks like business as usual, not nice, not pretty, not the way we would like our elected officials to act, but not criminal and just the actual way things are and have been done in Washington and around the world.

The Dems are trying to try their case against Trump in the court of public opinion. The Constitution does not prescribe this; the Senators are the jury, not the public. Are the Dems trying to subvert the Constitution or trying to influence public opinion for personal and party political gain? Should they be impeached? Are their actions an attempt to use the media and the power of Congress to influence our next election? You can bet on it. What will the Dems do if Trump is re-elected, commit suicide, have CA and NY secede from the Union, impeach Trump again? If it happens it will be an OMG moment as bad as when Hillary lost, a wailing and a gnashing of teeth throughout the land.

Everyone has known what the final outcome will be since the impeachment began and it is so obvious that all the Dems are doing is putting on a circus, a very very very boring circus. They have accomplished nothing other than building the wall dividing the people higher and higher. Please, let’s get it over with and get over it.

What I want to know is what Bolton has to say. I want him to testify, but the Repugs won’t allow it. So what are the Repugs attempting to cover up by not allowing people to testify? That, IMO, makes the Repugs just as guilty as the dotard of high crimes and misdemeanors. They are obviously protecting a criminal. No one questions that, but that should make them just as guilty. IMHO, all the Repugs, who refuse to allow a fair trial are all guilty and should be voted out of office come next election, if not taken out of office sooner.

Are their actions an attempt to use the media and the power of Congress to influence our next election?
No comparison. Trump used 400K that came from your tax dollars, money that you elected people to take of, and use to aid our friends against an aggressive invasion. Trump used that to try to coerce someone.
Bob: The Dems are trying to try their case against Trump in the court of public opinion. The Constitution does not prescribe this; the Senators are the jury, not the public.
Are you appealing to the rule of law? Judging from the responses from others here, yours is the lone voice interpreting the law differently. It all boils down to how many yea's against how many no's; and even that will not settle the matter. Like beauty, justice is in the eye of the beholder.

Hopefully, we come to our senses, go the way of Switzerland and diminish the power of the Executive branch of government over the nation. Transfer power to the states. It won’t stop us squabbling but the dust ups will be on a smaller scale and isolated to Texans, New Yorkers, Californians or wherever hate infects people in the republic. It will isolate the rest of us from the mindless rage.

 

I don’t see where Trump’s actions “drastically subvert the Constitution and involve an unforgivable abuse”. It looks like business as usual, not nice, not pretty, not the way we would like our elected officials to act, but not criminal and just the actual way things are and have been done in Washington and around the world.
Really? Then why no fair trial? Why a rushed process in the dead of night? Why did Moscow Mitch outright state that he wouldn't be an impartial juror? If there was nothing wrong with what he did, from a legal perspective, then why not say, "Yeah, we'll give the trial a fair shake. Same rules as the Clinton impeachment all right with you guys?"

And, as was already stated, the GAO, whose actual job it is to determine if a crime was committed or not, determined that a crime was committed. The president is not czar. He has no right to substitute his own policy for law. He has no authority to make, dispel or subvert laws. He is one part of the government, not the whole thing.

And I’m fairly certain that there must be SOME law on the books that makes it illegal for any person in the government to hold up spending of taxpayer dollars until they are given some personal kickback in return for taxpayer money. We don’t pay our taxes to buy nice things for the president. Like a new dictatorship or something.

Bob said “I don’t see where Trump’s actions “drastically subvert the Constitution and involve an unforgivable abuse”. It looks like business as usual, not nice, not pretty, not the way we would like our elected officials to act, but not criminal and just the actual way things are and have been done in Washington and around the world.”

TimB replies: T rump, illegally (according to the GOA), held up over $400 MILLIONS (not thousands) of defense aid for the Ukraine. He did this specifically to prompt Ukranian govt officials to investigate bogus claims that could help his own re-election.

This is not “business as usual”. Nor is declaring “absolute immunity” from investigation in to this corruption. Absolutely refusing to supply any relevant documents. Refusing to allow any persons from the White House staff to testify.

Now his lawyers are trying to proclaim that the offense is not even Impeachable.

IOW, Bob, in your complacent world of seeing false equivalencies as real equivalencies, T rump easily gets away with his crimes. And, Bob, if you hadn’t noticed, when T rump gets away with skirting the law, as he so often does, he doubles down.

We are seeing a slow motion, dictatorial take over of the USA. And your reaction is, “Nothing to see here, just boring business as usual, let’s get it over with and move on.”

T rump is showing, in no uncertain terms, that he is above the law.

So if he is not encumbered by laws, what can stop him from continuing to use his Presidential powers to CHEAT on the next election, to insure his victory? What, Bob?!

T rump does not represent “business as usual”. There is nothing “usual” about having a man of his character as POTUS. And there is nothing “usual” about having him in the imminent position of becoming DOTUS (Dictator of the United States).

 

It looks like business as usual, not nice, not pretty, not the way we would like our elected officials to act, but not criminal and just the actual way things are and have been done in Washington and around the world.”
Our Bob here is an example of someone who has been convinced that corruption is normal. In some ways it is, but what Trump did is not. What Biden's son did is. He got a job because of his name, because of his connections. Betsy DeVos, same thing. But Biden's son didn't get a job that is trying to take education away from America citizens. Biden just made some money. And Guilliani gets paid a lot more, just because of who he is. There are shades of corruption, and some are black.

I encourage everyone to remember that Trump is not an accomplished politician. If he were he would have had someone two levels down handle his request through some sort of back channel rather than handling it himself. Ever heard of “plausible deniability.” The Dems recognize his personality, his temperament and his experience (or lack of) don’t allow him to be as sneaky as he average politician. They have capitalized on his mistake of not being sneaky. The one big reason he was so appealing to the voters was that he was seen as offering politics not as usual.

And yes “corruption is normal”. I know it, you know it, everyone who pays attention knows it. I heard someone on TV say that what we used to call “pork” is now called “infrastructure”. A politician approves a project for another’s district in return for a project for his district being approved. And both politicians make sure the voters in their districts know who “fought so hard” to get them the project. Taxpayers’ dollars for votes, plain and simple. Quid pro quo. Mulvaney said candidly that we conduct foreign policy this way all the time. He is not talking about something that changed when Trump took office. It is business as usual.

Yep, there are many who think “there must be SOME law on the books that makes it illegal”. Sorry, there isn’t. We don’t convict a person of murder if he tried and was unsuccessful. Trump tried and failed. He is guilty of trying but not of doing; he received no quid pro quo. He is guilty of not being an accomplished sneaky politician. I have to wonder if the people here would rather he had been as sneaky and as politically accomplished as his predecessors and had succeeded in his efforts.

What was it that Nixon said about being a crook, that Bush said about weapons of mass destruction, that Obama said about keeping your medical coverage, that Clinton said about “that woman”? Yep, business as usual. The only thing that is unusual now is the hate the Dems have shown since Clinton lost. What they did during the Kavanaugh hearings was unforgivable. The impeachment is just the latest demonstration of their hate. They know nothing will be accomplished; it is nothing but revenge and it is ugly.

Sree: “It all boils down to how many yea’s against how many no’s; and even that will not settle the matter. Like beauty, justice is in the eye of the beholder.”

I believe you are right about it not settling anything. I fear the Dems will act like the radical Muslims, they won’t rest until their perceived enemy is dead and gone. If so they will hurt themselves most.

You are wrong about justice. The only thing we can accomplish under the law is procedural justice. We establish criteria and judge whether they have been met. Men are required to dispense justice, God gets even.

Bob said,

I fear the Dems will act like the radical Muslims, they won’t rest until their perceived enemy is dead and gone. If so they will hurt themselves most.

Seriously? You don’t see that the dotard committed crimes and you believe Dems are the equivalent of radical Muslims because they see the crimes the dotard has committed against the U.S.? You also believe that your [human created] deity will get even with everyone who know the dotard has committed crimes against the U.S. and humanity? Unbelievable! I suppose you believe the dotard was sent by your [human created] deity?

BTW, corruption is often normal in politics, but conspiring with a foreign country to sabotage an election in one’s favour is illegal. It’s in the Constitution, if one ever reads it, but most people have never read it and don’t want to take the time to read it.

Come on Mriana, sabotage? Do you really believe the people who will vote against Trump, the democrats, are so stupid and so vulnerable as to be induced to not put their best candidate up against him? I doubt that if an investigation had been started that it would have swayed any one of them to vote for Trump.

What you should take from Trump’s effort to get an investigation announced is just how inept a politician he really is. You should be thrilled that he tried and failed at something so dumb, but you need to remember that he was found out before he could do the deed and that for it to have been conspiracy, Zelensky would have had to do his part and he didn’t.

My reference to Sree is from the Bible. I was reminding him, or her, that the second part, the part most forget, of “an eye for an eye” is that “vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord”, an admonition for men to not seek revenge. Justice does not include revenge.

He was in bed with Putin when he stole the election from Hillary. The Electoral College was paid off to vote against the people (popular vote). The Dems are smart enough to know that the dotard is in bed with Putin and that he not only rigged the last election, he will rig the next one. Sabotage is his specialty. The Dems are hardly stupid and Schiff is making a very good case, even without further evidence, though hearing from other witnesses, especially Bolton would be nice. No I’m not thrilled about anything concerning that vulgar orange creature. He makes me sick just hearing his voice and I turn the channel every time his ugly misogynist mug comes on the TV. He’s a criminal, plain and simple and he needs to go to prison. The Bile has nothing to do with his criminal behaviour and it should not even be in a court of law, just like prayer should not be. This has nothing to do with revenge either. It has all to do with justice and a criminal needs to go to prison or there is no justice. Period. If he does not go to prison, along with his cronies, then we do not have a democracy or a Republic. We have a dictatorship and the dictator could be in power for a very long time, which is NOT what the founding fathers wanted, thus the Constitution and its amendments.

Bob, your defense of T rump is that he is an incompetent politician??? How the f— do you think he became POTUS? That he is too stupid to successfully do crimes??? He is getting away with doing crimes. He is getting away with claiming that he cannot be indicted, he cannot be investigate, he cannot be impeached from office. Is his stupidity, therefore, going to save us from him? I think not. And, btw, you do not have to be successful in committing a crime, in order to have committed a crime. If you tried to rob a bank, and were stopped, would they say, “no harm, no foul”? Maybe if you were T rump and tried to rob a bank.

And now you claim that Dems are tantamount to being murderous radicalized Muslims. Why go to the trouble of exercising free speech to highlight T rump’s high crimes and misdemeanors, if they were just going to murder him?


The idea that Corruption in government is a good thing is an idea that can definitely lead to the USA becoming a third world nation. And yet, this love of corruption is growing like gangbusters under T rump.

And again, “quid pro quo” is a most common interactional basis for human interactions. But “CORRUPT quid pro quo” is not something a POTUS should be doing in foreign relations. (Corruption, in govt, is when the quid or the quo is for the benefit of the politician himself, rather than for the nation.)


And I repeat my question, Bob. Once T rump gets away with his crime, and the Impeachment process is done, what will stop T rump from continuing to break the law and cheat in the upcoming election? What Bob??? His stupidity, incompetence, lack of political skill? T rump doesn’t give up. He keeps trying til he gets his way. Even with stupidity, incompetence, and limited deal making ability, the power of being above the law, the power to break any law, can overcome a good amount of stupidity and incompetence.

The outcome we are heading for is to have a stupid, incompetent, (but vengeful, yeah, if you are concerned about vengeance, look to T rump) Dictator of the United States. So thanks a lot, Bob, for nothing.

 

Bob: You are wrong about justice. The only thing we can accomplish under the law is procedural justice. We establish criteria and judge whether they have been met. Men are required to dispense justice, God gets even.
Establishing criteria and judge? We are not talking about mathematical absolutes and high precision measuring equipment. We are talking about cockeyed crazy people and their points of view. If justice is as clear cut as the way you see it, why are there appellate courts and dissenting opinions in the highest court in the land?

Hey Bob,do you need a drink to clear your head? I just bought a bottle of Talisker 10 years. Spotted it yesterday. Wasn’t cheap either. Some guy in this forum said it was his Scotch. I needed to know what kind of people I am dealing with here.

Enjoy the Talisker for me.

A toast: Here’s to you and here’s to me. And should we ever disagree, screw you and here’s to me.