Economy, OTOH, is real.I must keep in mind that you said this. I still believe that freedom (your "free will") is real. ;-)
Economics is the theology of today. - Stiglitz, JosephThis must be one of the silliest thing I have heard in a long time. It may be silly but it is fairly close to the truth. A large percentage of the talk by people claiming to be talking about economics are just rationalizing their economic ideology. But can economics escape physics? Can the Laws of Physics tell the difference between a machine that is a Capital Good and a machine that is a Consumer Good. So what has happened to the depreciation of all of the automobiles purchased by consumers since the Moon landing? Galbraith wrote about the planned obsolescence of cars in The Affluent Society in 1959. So how is it that most economists haven't noticed it in the last 50 years? There were 200,000,000 cars in the US in 1995. At $1,500 in depreciation per car that is $300,000,000,000. The economics profession disappeared it into space. That does not count the televisions, air conditioners, refrigerators, etc., etc. http://www.spectacle.org/1199/wargame.html Double-entry accounting is 700 years old. What economic ideology advocates mandatory accounting in our schools? Can't our smartphones that are more powerful than 1980s mainframes handle it? :lol: Of course if economists suggest that now then how do they explain not suggesting it 30 years ago? psik
While economics is real, I think the term, “economic science” is an oxymoron. It doesn’t matter what you would like to believe about the way finance, etc. works. you can find a PhD economist who can or has written a thesis showing the validity of your ideas. While I think there is a real scientific basis for economic functioning, we still seem to be at the point chemistry was three hundred years ago with alchemists and magicians.
Occam
While economics is real, I think the term, "economic science" is an oxymoron.Technology changes society and economics. Henry Ford did more to make Karl Marx obsolescent than John Maynard Keynes. But I think all discussion of economics since about 1920 that does not incorporate planned obsolescence and Demand Side Depreciation is either really stupid or a deliberate lie. So how should our politicians deal with the corporations making junk? This can bring in the issues of pollution and climate change. psik
VYAZMA, Theology is the study of God, not religions. Religions, which of course do exist, are studied by, for example, anthropology. As far as economics being far from perfect, IMO, the one thing that would help them move ahead is adding biology to the equation. But I know you don't believe in that stuff or it makes you upset or something like that...WTF are you talking about?
I agree with your plan, Lois, except for one thing. I think we have to assign a minimum adequate living income for everyone to help keep them out of poverty, say, the first $50,000 of income would not be taxed. That way we wouldn't be penalizing those who can hardly survive on their incomes. OccamHmm... I'd think that value should be based on the cost of living of your residence. $50k goes along way in a small town in the mid-West vs. SF Bay Area, LA Area, New York, et al. Heck, around here $50k is barely a downpayment! ;-P But all these exceptions and attempts to make it fair (or skew it towards someone's benefit :coolsmile: ) are what it make the tax code so complicated. Take care, Derek
The Government is the economy! Everywhere! Only the wealthy ever want to frame the dichotomy of government verses economy(ie. private sector etc ...) The Government is the economy. This can be summed up in this simple dictum: When people petition the govt. through lobbying, voting, bribery, blackmail, referendums, policy organizations, gerrymandering, etc...they are trying to mold the government in their best private interests. This is government! That is government! What do many of these invalids think? That govt is some outside force? No the govt is being steered by the people. It is the people. We get the friggin' government we deserve! And the wealthy get the government they pay for. And when you hear talk about..."big government" or govt. vs. private sector...that's the wealthy and the powerful interests being the squeaky wheel. They are the friggin' govt! And they want their govt. Not our government! They're absolutely happy when it's their government(a big friggin' govt I might add!!) But when the people(the underrepresented, disenfranchised people) start to reach for a piece of their own government, well then... Government is too big! It's government verses the people! The government is the economy! Wake up!I'm not so sure the government is the economy. It's true that government always gets involved in the economy but I'm not sure that's a necessity except where government expects to control the distribution of money. Theoretically, at least, a government could stay out of the economy and make no laws regarding it. I don't think that would work, but i think it woud be possible in the short term and as a philosophy. Government will always become involved when the idea of taxation comes in and no government can function without being financially supported one way or another. So it will be involved on that level. In a true democracy, the people must want the government to control the economy or it wouldn't happen. It's an interesting topic of discussion. Can a government stay out of the economy? Would it result in anarchy? Would the people rise up and demand it?
I’m not so sure the government is the economy.It isn't, however the decisions it makes can often have a very good or an extremely bad effect ON the economy. The current budget battles along with the hue and the cry over who's going to cut what from where as well as the uncertainty which goes along with it is an example of that. Think for example, of just the pensioners, be they Social Security recipients or civil service/military retirees along with current employees who are wondering if they are even going to get their benefits or a paycheck. Current employees number 4,403,000 as of 2011. Then count those who get pensions then count those who receive Social Security benefits. Anybody think that won't have an effect if that goes away, even for a brief time? Now factor in the number of private sector industries which are kept afloat by government contracts. Anybody thing THAT won't have an effect if it goes away? ( Possibly for good!)
The Government is the economy! Everywhere! Only the wealthy ever want to frame the dichotomy of government verses economy(ie. private sector etc ...) The Government is the economy. This can be summed up in this simple dictum: When people petition the govt. through lobbying, voting, bribery, blackmail, referendums, policy organizations, gerrymandering, etc...they are trying to mold the government in their best private interests.Uhhh, not quite. The government is a big factor in the economy and has become a bigger factor since The Depression and World War II. One annoying thing is that computers helped make the government bigger from WWII until the 1980s. The Census Bureau helped finance UNIVAC. Giant organizations like corporations and the govenrment could not function without computers and World War II forced the development of large sacle organizational techniques. But the entire concept of land ownership and deeds involves the governmet along with printing money. But the government does not control people's economic activity. Just tries to tax it. But that is the funny thing about this society. Wouldn't Adam Smith's enlightened self interest be a logical justification for mandatory accounting. But why 8isn't that idea promoted. All warfare is based on deception. - Sun Tzu The economic wargame is the continuation of the military wargame by other means. But what is EVERYBODY having computers going to do to the game? Subversive (1962) by Reynolds Mack http://www.digilibraries.com/ebook/115574/Subversive/ Cost of Living (1952) by Robert Sheckley https://senjibqa.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/cost-of-living/ psik
Lois-I'm not so sure the government is the economy. It's true that government always gets involved in the economy but I'm not sure that's a necessity except where government expects to control the distribution of money. Theoretically, at least, a government could stay out of the economy and make no laws regarding it. I don't think that would work, but i think it would be possible in the short term and as a philosophy. Government will always become involved when the idea of taxation comes in and no government can function without being financially supported one way or another. So it will be involved on that level. In a true democracy, the people must want the government to control the economy or it wouldn't happen. It's an interesting topic of discussion. Can a government stay out of the economy? Would it result in anarchy? Would the people rise up and demand it?Yeah, I'm not talking philosophy here, or theories Lois. If your sharp enough to realize it, aside from the rhetorical "stuff" at the end of your paragraph here, everything else you stated above supports the fact that government is the economy. For example,
Lois- Theoretically, at least, a government could stay out of the economy and make no laws regarding it. I don't think that would work,Lot's of things can be theoretical, but lets say that government made no laws regarding the economy. How does that happen? Through government? Why would that happen?
Hmmnn, where does IT make these decisions? In a cave somewhere, up on a mountain? But better yet....answer just this question EOC. Why is "govt" making these decisions you say it makes? Just answer that question please.I’m not so sure the government is the economy.It isn't, however the decisions it makes can often have a very good or an extremely bad effect ON the economy. The current budget battles along with the hue and the cry over who's going to cut what from where as well as the uncertainty which goes along with it is an example of that. Think for example, of just the pensioners, be they Social Security recipients or civil service/military retirees along with current employees who are wondering if they are even going to get their benefits or a paycheck. Current employees number 4,403,000 as of 2011. Then count those who get pensions then count those who receive Social Security benefits. Anybody think that won't have an effect if that goes away, even for a brief time? Now factor in the number of private sector industries which are kept afloat by government contracts. Anybody thing THAT won't have an effect if it goes away? ( Possibly for good!)
Lot’s of things can be theoretical, but lets say that government made no laws regarding the economy. How does that happen? Through government? Why would that happen.The government (ours) could back away and adopt a lassez faire economic attitude as it did in the late 19th Century, but we know the results of that policy, e,g. corruption, extreme poverty, and starvation wages, not to mention shoddy goods and inedible food to name a few. The government can't back away from the economy as it's irrevocably tied to it. Government and economy are symbiotic. We use government as a shield and as a job creator. I know that sounds an alarm in the minds of the teapartiers but millions of us rely on the government for jobs. In fact, this discussion generated the main planks of both party platforms as it relates to government spending and the tax issue. IMO, as to government and economy; one can't exist without the other. And as to economy being a religion, it is a philosophy and I guess one can at times "worship" the all mighty dollar but where's the dogma? Do we use "The Wealth of Nations" as our bible and revere Adam Smith as the prophet? No true Scotsman. (for the literal among us I'm being facetious). Cap't Jack
Psy-The government is a big factor in the economy and has become a bigger factor since The Depression and World War II.The "govt" if we refer to it as the US Constitution has been a big "factor" in the economy since 1776!! It's not only what YOU perceive as the gov't Proactively Steering the economy!! Gov't/economy is also the absence of control on the economy by the gov't! Which in essence makes them one! For why would that be an ideology? Would that be economy forming gov't, or govt forming economy? Of course, aside from that, it is quite obvious that alot of The US Constitution deals with "economic freedom". So what came first? The chicken or the egg?
The Census Bureau helped finance UNIVAC. Giant organizations like corporations and the govenrment could not function without computers and World War II forced the development of large sacle organizational techniques. But the entire concept of land ownership and deeds involves the governmet along with printing money.:question: You're supporting my argument here!
But the government does not control people's economic activity. Just tries to tax it.There are many examples of "gov't" controlling people's economic activity. Many. But that highlights my point. You state that gov't doesn't control people's economic activity. The areas where it does control the economy highlights the area where it "doesn't control it"--hence control by default. The lack of controls indicates an impetus for non-control. Where does that impetus come from? Obviously we know there are many petitioners seeking less control. These petitioners are actually seeking to control government!!(or the economy-they're the same thing) That's govt/economy.
Village. I will gladly accept the term “symbiotic”. That’s good enough for me. Just barely.
The point I have made here is the proper way to phrase the title of this thread is: “What is the people’s role in the Govconomy or Economent?”
That’s what it really boils down to!! 1000%
Framing it as a Government vs. Economy rule is inherently beneficial to the wealthy.
What is the people’s role in Govt/Economy?
The lobbyists, the petitioners, the politicians, the interest groups, the watchdogs, the poor, labor, industry etc etc etc…
Vy, have you read Charles and Mary Beard’s book “An Economic Intpretation of the Constitution”? They posit that the founding fathers created the Constitution, hence the American Government for economic freedom. Each of them had a stake in allowing for less governmental control of the economy allowing for greater profits and great opportunities for the accumulation of wealth. They tie government and the economy together. It’s an interesting read although it’s a bit dated.
Cap’t Jack
The government can’t back away from the economy as it’s irrevocably tied to it.Just so you know, EVERYTHING is tied to economy. EVERYTHING. Government or no.
Hmmnn, where does IT make these decisions? In a cave somewhere, up on a mountain?Did you even bother reading the WHOLE of my post instead of highlighting a small portion of it to contrive a strawman? Of course you didn't.
EOC, when you quote someone please leave the attribution. I know neither who you are quoting nor the context of the quote.Hmmnn, where does IT make these decisions? In a cave somewhere, up on a mountain?Did you even bother reading the WHOLE of my post instead of highlighting a small portion of it to contrive a strawman? Of course you didn't.
EOC, when you quote someone please leave the attribution. I know neither who you are quoting nor the context of the quote. context, you want stinking context >:( What fun is that, :blank: put's such limitations on the ability to interpret what a person was saying :kiss:Hmmnn, where does IT make these decisions? In a cave somewhere, up on a mountain?Did you even bother reading the WHOLE of my post instead of highlighting a small portion of it to contrive a strawman? Of course you didn't.