Where is the wealth?

Politics and Social Issues
1

Now that capitalism has been exposed for the shell game it is, will there be changes?

I’m not sure how to research, and I have no economics background, so it won’t be scholarly, but I’m just thinking about why people want to “open the economy”. It’s not so they can go back to living paycheck to paycheck, unless they are short sighted. I mean the rich people, they have money and don’t need to work, but they want us idiots buying Doritos. What they need is, all those monthly checks to keep coming, gas going in to cars, the rent, insurance. Those are the big ones, and much of that expense is needed just so we can keep getting to our jobs to keep making those payments. The rat race.

But, if we stop paying rent, the building doesn’t fall down. If we stop using so much gas, gas actually gets cheaper. The machine that we’re feeding is giving money to banks, to the people who already own everything, so they can make up something I don’t need, and then I’ll buy that too. At some point, and we could have done this 50 years ago when there were only 6 billion people, we can just say, okay, that’s enough, we can feed everyone, let’s turn around, look at the mess we made in building this modern world and clean it up a little. Let’s value that, create jobs for that. And let’s bring stability to places that don’t have it, so they don’t feel the need to terrorize us or to have 6 babies in the hopes 2 survive.

I’m getting ahead of myself a little here. I guess the first thing is, let’s just quit depositing our wealth in an engine that doesn’t work. Is there an economic case to be made for that?

2

If the Dems get in power after the 2020 election, I think we will have a chance to support the stronger progressives in our political system and to press the Biden administration toward the basic principles of the Green New Deal.

I know those 3 words together are like epithets to the ears of conservatives. Hopefully, what we are going thru will have some impact on the intransigence of their support for things like “Trickle down economics” and like wasting more and more tax money by giving it to profiteers.

But the topic question is interesting. There is a lot of money out there. Look at the crazy monkey Stock Market. (I don’t think it is moved by bulls or bears these days, but rather by crazed monkeys.)

The fact that the Market is as high as it still is, while a Great Depression is within the realm of possibility, indicates, I think, that there is a LOT of money out there.

3
I’m getting ahead of myself a little here. I guess the first thing is, let’s just quit depositing our wealth in an engine that doesn’t work. Is there an economic case to be made for that?
The engine works its just the people running it are corrupt.

 

4
@lausten: I’m getting ahead of myself a little here. I guess the first thing is, let’s just quit depositing our wealth in an engine that doesn’t work. Is there an economic case to be made for that?

@thatoneguy: The engine works its just the people running it are corrupt.


The engine does work, but not in the way lausten wants. Computer models have shown that this engine cannot slow down, let alone stop, without causing catastrophic impacts to the human race. According to UN projection, this global covid lock down over the past several weeks could bring about starvation to more than 100 million of the bottom half of humanity in the coming months. The poor will always be the first to suffer. They are the ones in the hold of the ship and first to drown whenever the sinking vessel takes in water. The longer we wait to open the economy, the more devils emerge for us to deal with.

5

There’s nothing Republicans won’t blame on others. Oh to hear them actually acting like adults and taking responsibility and learning some lessons from their error - oh what a day that would be. sree our economy was heading toward the shiter in any event, we are a top heavy house of cards.

US has regressed to developing nation status, MIT economist warns Peter Temin says 80 per cent of the population is burdened with debt and anxious about job security

Chloe Farand
Friday 21 April 2017

America is regressing to have the economic and political structure of a developing nation, an MIT economist has warned.

Peter Temin says the world’s’ largest economy has roads and bridges that look more like those in Thailand and Venezuela than those in parts of Europe.

In his new book, “The Vanishing Middle Class", reviewed by the Institute for New Economic Thinking, Mr Temin says the fracture of US society is leading the middle class to disappear. …


You are also under the delusion that this COVID-19 is no big deal - like there aren’t any more nasty surprises to be expected, like it all just another flu.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/how-does-coronavirus-kill-clinicians-trace-ferocious-rampage-through-body-brain-toes

By Meredith Wadman, Jennifer Couzin-Frankel, Jocelyn Kaiser, Catherine Matacic = Apr. 17, 2020

As the number of confirmed cases of COVID-19 surges past 2.2 million globally and deaths surpass 150,000, clinicians and pathologists are struggling to understand the damage wrought by the coronavirus as it tears through the body. They are realizing that although the lungs are ground zero, its reach can extend to many organs including the heart and blood vessels, kidneys, gut, and brain.

“[The disease] can attack almost anything in the body with devastating consequences,” says cardiologist Harlan Krumholz of Yale University and Yale-New Haven Hospital, who is leading multiple efforts to gather clinical data on COVID-19. “Its ferocity is breathtaking and humbling.” …

… Despite the more than 1000 papers now spilling into journals and onto preprint servers every week, a clear picture is elusive, as the virus acts like no pathogen humanity has ever seen. …

… How the virus attacks the heart and blood vessels is a mystery, but dozens of preprints and papers attest that such damage is common. A 25 March paper in JAMA Cardiology documented heart damage in nearly 20% of patients out of 416 hospitalized for COVID-19 in Wuhan, China. In another Wuhan study, 44% of 36 patients admitted to the ICU had arrhythmias.

The disruption seems to extend to the blood itself. Among 184 COVID-19 patients in a Dutch ICU, 38% had blood that clotted abnormally, …

… According to one preprint, 27% of 85 hospitalized patients in Wuhan had kidney failure. …

… Another striking set of symptoms in COVID-19 patients centers on the brain and central nervous system. Frontera says neurologists are needed to assess 5% to 10% of coronavirus patients at her hospital. But she says that “is probably a gross underestimate” of the number whose brains are struggling, especially because many are sedated and on ventilators. …

… Her case adds to a growing body of evidence suggesting the new coronavirus, like its cousin SARS, can infect the lining of the lower digestive tract, where the crucial ACE2 receptors are abundant. Viral RNA has been found in as many as 53% of sampled patients’ stool samples. …

… This map of the devastation that COVID-19 can inflict on the body is still just a sketch. It will take years of painstaking research to sharpen the picture of its reach, and the cascade of cardiovascular and immune effects it might set in motion. …


 

But you don’t hear or absorb any of that do you? It’s profit über alles, that is all you “are present to”?

Of course, had the mega rich, who are hoarding their ship loads of treasure, had shared the wealth with international healthy agencies, rather than spending millions propagandizing against them and allowed them the modest funding they asked for and richly deserved - we wouldn’t be in this shit hole to begin with! But that require a depth of understanding for our society’s interconnected, interdependent complexities.

Ever hear the phrase, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Well modern human society is in the early stages of learning that lesson.

 

 

6
The engine works its just the people running it are corrupt.
It runs on corruption.

 

7
Computer models have shown that this engine cannot slow down, let alone stop, without causing catastrophic impacts to the human race. -- Sree
I would rate this "partially true". If an engine seizes up while driving a vehicle at 100 MPH, that will cause damage. But, according to models, we should have let off the gas about 40 years ago. We still can. Far more damage will be done if we don't. Models show.
8

Not sure I’m totally I’m on board with this “build” idea, but instead of waiting for the post-collapse, where buildings are being scavenged from the existing infrastructure, how about we do that proactively? We know how to build better buildings now, so let’s dismantle the old ones we have and reuse them to do that. Detroit is using their open land to do gardening. I’m sure other cities have areas that are better off razed, rather than leaving it to one landlord at a time.

9
I would rate this “partially true”.
You are right. All systems behavior projections are indicative.
If an engine seizes up while driving a vehicle at 100 MPH, that will cause damage. But, according to models, we should have let off the gas about 40 years ago. We still can. Far more damage will be done if we don’t. Models show.
About 20 years ago, in university, I was browsing through studies done in the sixties at a time when your thinking was driving research. Behavorial scientists, both here and in Europe, were already concerned back then with the way things were going with regard to population growth, pollution, food supply, natural resources, economic stability, etc. The computer predictions were alarming no matter what contributing factors were tweaked to achieve social system stability. All outcomes were the same: catastrophic. I was incredulous. Even slowing down population growth led to disaster!

 

 

10

Am I not understanding you Sree, or did you just completely contradict your earlier statement:

The engine does work,
 
11
@lausten: Am I not understanding you Sree, or did you just completely contradict your earlier statement:
No contradiction. I did say that the engine does work but not in the way you want. When I saw those research findings, done 40 years earlier, it shocked me and left me inwardly upset to this day because I understand why nothing can be done by science to save us from eventual social system disintegration unless there is fundamental change. Slowing down from 100 mph is neither fundamental nor a solution. We are dealing with a time bomb that goes off unless we can keep running ever faster. If we run out of oil, we need to find new sources of energy without poisoning ourselves with the pollution (nuclear energy is not a good idea). Each new day brings more problems that our creative human mind has to resolve to keep this engine working. The faster we go, the more inhumane and "soulless" life is going to get for everyone. The engine works but only for those who have no hearts.
12

So, it’s a matter of people who have hearts, and who oppose corruption, wresting control of the engine away from the sociopaths. Then the engine can be made to be a non-destructive one, and can be made to work for all.

13
The engine works its just the people running it are corrupt. It runs on corruption.
I think you know better than that. A system takes on the characteristics of the people running it.
14
We are dealing with a time bomb that goes off unless we can keep running ever faster.
If you're the Red Queen, I suppose that makes sense. But if you understand things like how far away the next planet is, or what it would take to start mining asteroids, you should be able to see what Icarus figured out.
15
So, it’s a matter of people who have hearts, and who oppose corruption, wresting control of the engine away from the sociopaths. Then the engine can be made to be a non-destructive one, and can be made to work for all.
You have got it right, in principle: making the engine work for all. To do that, you have to be all inclusive - the entirety of mankind - and stop viewing yourself as @timb, a part of humanity opposed to other parts: the sociopaths and the corrupt. Can you do that? Will you do that? If you truly love yourself, which is all of us in you, then we can all - together as one - find the way.
16
Will you do that?

Nope. I expect that I will remained opposed to the sociopaths and the corrupt. But it is nice of you to ask.

17
The engine does work, but not in the way lausten wants. Computer models have shown that this engine cannot slow down, let alone stop, without causing catastrophic impacts to the human race. According to UN projection, this global covid lock down over the past several weeks could bring about starvation to more than 100 million of the bottom half of humanity in the coming months. The poor will always be the first to suffer. They are the ones in the hold of the ship and first to drown whenever the sinking vessel takes in water. The longer we wait to open the economy, the more devils emerge for us to deal with.
I think the catastrophic impacts are over-exaggerated -- but nothing big is easy. The economy has been slowed down for about 2 months now and the talk of relief for the out of work amounts to pocket change. The people in charge are straight up unreliable and they obviously hate most Americans, but they have every escape hatch blocked. Trump isn't one of them but he can't fight them.

I think this situation also highlights the fact that having a status quo filled with old people is a bad idea, and maybe we need to limit the oldsters participation in politics and the economy.

18
a part of humanity opposed to other parts: the sociopaths and the corrupt
In any discussion of ethics of any length or value, at some point, you have to put aside the extremes. No cooperative animal society can survive if they let sociopaths run around unchecked. I have a place for sex offenders in my society; in locked facility where they are given classes in empathy until they can demonstrate that they get it.
19
@timb: Nope. I expect that I will remained opposed to the sociopaths and the corrupt. But it is nice of you to ask.
I had to ask, no matter how hopeless. There is no other way out unless we stop fighting.
20

Then join me, Sree. Join me in opposing the forces of LIES and CORRUPTION.