on the beautiful side

General Discussion
21

TimB: If one does not recognize the beauty in the picture above, (and I am sure that there are many who don’t) then, imo, their reality is diminished. But whether they feel fear, annoyance, disgust, or some other emotion, those feelings are also part of reality.

Xain: Not true, they simply have woken up to the way that things are. As for emotions they are not valid or real, at least that is what Buddhism says (a la the Heart Sutra).

TimB: I could say that Buddhism (a la the Heart Sutra) is not valid or real. That it is all just a cacophony of concepts. At least emotions have potentially observable correlates. Can you show evidence that Buddhist claims are real?

Xain: You pointing to pictures as examples of beauty means nothing and they aren’t evidence either.

TimB: The pictures that I presented are examples of beauty to me. And I know that because I have a pleasant feeling when I see them. I would not have the same feeling if I were looking at a Grecian Urn, but that’s just me. Some say “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. So beauty does not seem to be experienced the same across different individual’s perception. Still the emotions that it evokes are real.

Xain: That Gretta girl is too naive to understand how humans function, that what served just thousands of years ago is now killing us (and is likely a case for why modernity is a mistake).

TimB: Idk what you mean by “what served just thousands of years ago is now killing us (and is likely a case for why modernity is a mistake)”.

Xain: She has yet to learn, but like other idealistic youths she will.

TimB: She doesn’t seem to me to be naïve. She knows the issues of Climate Change better than most of the people running the world today. She recognizes that the powers that be, will continue to say nice things about what they will do to combat climate change, while actually doing little or nothing. She is only idealistic in that she keeps trying in the face of little actual hope. And she is aware of that, too. Having ideals may well eventually be beaten out of her by experience, but in the meantime, it is, imo, an excellent bit of meaning for her life. And in the meantime, she will be beautiful. Beauty exists in moments, not perpetually. Nothing lasts forever.

And btw, having ideals is not the sole domain of the young. Having ideals is a critical component of being a healthy human. (Unless of course you can be a Buddhist who is above all that. Can you be a Buddhist who is above all that, Xain?) And if you can, then what?

22
You pointing to pictures as examples of beauty means nothing and they aren’t evidence either.
I've tried correcting you on what Buddhism is, but you are going to cherry pick your fake gurus, so not much point in doing that anymore. But, really, you think you can tell me what my feelings are? You think humans didn't get warm sensations in the area of their heart a million years ago? That's evidence. Reports of physical sensations when shown images have been used as evidence since forever. Like when someone says, "look, there's a turd floating in the stream!" Most people would have a similar reaction to that.
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“I wonder why so many misspell Xain, as Xian. The latter is an abbreviation for Christian. But Xain, is Xain.”

I’m so embarrassed I could crawl into a hole right now. I read that wrong since the first time I saw it. (That happens to me a lot with names in books, too.)

I am sorry Xain. Please don’t think I was doing it on purpose. I honestly read your name as ‘Xian’ the first time I saw it and somehow kept reading it as that ever since. My sincerest apologies. – 3point


I guess I’ve been doing that to. I hate it when people use Losten or something like that, someone used to do that at SkepticForum to me and I was sure they were doing it as a slight. I’m sure it’s that I expected it to be “ian”. Not that he acts like a Christian. Sorry Xain. I’m now pronouncing is “Zain”, just to be sure I remember.

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This is a recovered post from 3point14rat. I should probably stop doing this, but this one was epic. It was originally posted way back on the page 1 somewhere.

“Truth is beauty and beauty truth.”
I dunno about that. There’s a lot of ugly truth out there.

How beautiful is the truth of Trump’s acquittal or the Killing Fields of Cambodia? Pol Pot and Trump are the source of many ugly truths, and that’s just two guys.

————————–

But when simply looking at nature and the universe in general, ya, I hear you- there’s beauty on top of beauty to a level we can’t appreciate.

I normally don’t care for poetry, but back in 1992 in my first (and only) college English class, we read the poem, The Tables Turned, by William Wordsworth. For some reason the most famous line from it has stuck with me:

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“One impulse from a vernal wood
May teach you more of man,
Of moral evil and of good,
Than all the sages can.”
At the time I had never heard of the poem or the famous stanza (even now I had to look up the title and author on the internet because I have no clue about the poem), but that part totally jumped out at me when I first read it and I’ve been able to recite it ever since then.

Admittedly, the way it’s written is brilliant beyond compare, but it was the meaning that caused it to be cemented in my head forever. It took how I look at nature and our relationship with it, and wrote it in a way that I can’t.

Anyways, that stanza is how I look at the beautiful side of everything in nature.

25

When rushed and distracted I shouldn’t comment at all, excuse the above mess.

 

 

Tim, was that a hint: Above it all - then were to go? :wink:

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Thanks a bunch for digging up my lost post Lausten.

Formatting went wonky while it languished in purgatory, but it’s all there.

27

@ Xain

Why is it that nature seems to favor balance and symmetry, the fundamental aspects of beauty?

Natura Artis Magistra ; Latin for “Nature is the teacher of the arts”

Here come Xain and declares Nature does not create beauty?

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TimB: If one does not recognize the beauty in the picture above, (and I am sure that there are many who don’t) then, imo, their reality is diminished. But whether they feel fear, annoyance, disgust, or some other emotion, those feelings are also part of reality.

Xain: Not true, they simply have woken up to the way that things are. As for emotions they are not valid or real, at least that is what Buddhism says (a la the Heart Sutra).

TimB: I could say that Buddhism (a la the Heart Sutra) is not valid or real. That it is all just a cacophony of concepts. At least emotions have potentially observable correlates. Can you show evidence that Buddhist claims are real?

Xain: You pointing to pictures as examples of beauty means nothing and they aren’t evidence either.

TimB: The pictures that I presented are examples of beauty to me. And I know that because I have a pleasant feeling when I see them. I would not have the same feeling if I were looking at a Grecian Urn, but that’s just me. Some say “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. So beauty does not seem to be experienced the same across different individual’s perception. Still the emotions that it evokes are real.

Xain: That Gretta girl is too naive to understand how humans function, that what served just thousands of years ago is now killing us (and is likely a case for why modernity is a mistake).

TimB: Idk what you mean by “what served just thousands of years ago is now killing us (and is likely a case for why modernity is a mistake)”.

Xain: She has yet to learn, but like other idealistic youths she will.

TimB: She doesn’t seem to me to be naïve. She knows the issues of Climate Change better than most of the people running the world today. She recognizes that the powers that be, will continue to say nice things about what they will do to combat climate change, while actually doing little or nothing. She is only idealistic in that she keeps trying in the face of little actual hope. And she is aware of that, too. Having ideals may well eventually be beaten out of her by experience, but in the meantime, it is, imo, an excellent bit of meaning for her life. And in the meantime, she will be beautiful. Beauty exists in moments, not perpetually. Nothing lasts forever.

And btw, having ideals is not the sole domain of the young. Having ideals is a critical component of being a healthy human. (Unless of course you can be a Buddhist who is above all that. Can you be a Buddhist who is above all that, Xain?) And if you can, then what?


The Heart Sutra isn’t a cacophony (have you even read it?) it gets at the very core of what reality is and not what we wish it to be. It dispells the phantoms that we take to be real like meaning, beauty, and separateness, among many other things and forces us to reckon with what is. Something you guys refuse to.

Nature doesn’t favor anything, if something is symmetrical then it simply is so but that doesn’t make it beautiful. Nature does not create beauty, humans impose their falsehoods on other things by labeling them as such but it does not make them so. Saying that symmetry is an element of beauty is also false for that is merely an opinion not a fact.

 

I’ve tried correcting you on what Buddhism is, but you are going to cherry pick your fake gurus, so not much point in doing that anymore. But, really, you think you can tell me what my feelings are? You think humans didn’t get warm sensations in the area of their heart a million years ago? That’s evidence. Reports of physical sensations when shown images have been used as evidence since forever. Like when someone says, “look, there’s a turd floating in the stream!” Most people would have a similar reaction to that.
Except you didn't, I had to correct you. The middle path is mistakenly believed to be moderation when it is far from it. It's not only between asceticism and indulgence (which is what you all advocate) but also about non judgment and nonduality, it's no extremes or judgement for reality is empty of our judgments about it and such judgments lead to suffering. THAT is the middle path.

This is also relevant to that point: “the moment you try to change something is the moment you say that you’re broken. Self realization is understanding that the true you is whole in and of itself yet that there is no self.”

29

Maybe nature doesn’t create beauty, Write4U, but it can be awe inspiring or rather neuro-chemical stimulating triggering feelings of awe.

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Xain said: Nature doesn’t favor anything, if something is symmetrical then it simply is so but that doesn’t make it beautiful. Nature does not create beauty, humans impose their falsehoods on other things by labeling them as such but it does not make them so. Saying that symmetry is an element of beauty is also false for that is merely an opinion not a fact.
Are you trying to rewrite the English dictionary?

Beauty

Beauty is the ascription of a property or characteristic to an animal, idea, object, person or place that provides a perceptual experience of pleasure or satisfaction. Beauty is studied as part of aesthetics, culture, social psychology, philosophy and sociology. An "ideal beauty" is an entity which is admired, or possesses features widely attributed to beauty in a particular culture, for perfection. Ugliness is the opposite of beauty.

The experience of “beauty” often involves an interpretation of some entity as being in balance and harmony with nature, which may lead to feelings of attraction and emotional well-being. Because this can be a subjective experience, it is often said that “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”[1]

Often, given the observation that empirical observations of things that are considered beautiful often align among groups in consensus, beauty has been stated to have levels of objectivity and partial subjectivity which are not fully subjective in their aesthetic judgement.


According to neuroscientist Anil Seth; "we’re all hallucinating all the time; when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality.”

Just because you are unable to experience beauty when you see it, does not mean it does not exist. It may not exist for you, but that does not give you authority to deny the existence of beauty. Au contraire, I would suggest you study a little bit of Art 101 and learn about the beauty of symmetry and balance in Nature. You might even learn to appreciate beauty, once you understand “composition and perspective” when nature is represented in visual form.

There are mathematical patterns which evoke a sense of harmony in the viewer and in the case of poetry, the listener.

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Mriana said; Maybe nature doesn’t create beauty
Of course nature can create beauty. Beauty is a potential of regular mathematical patterns in nature. Many animals display and respond to beauty.

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The earliest Western theory of beauty can be found in the works of early Greek philosophers from the pre-Socratic period, such as Pythagoras. The Pythagorean school saw a strong connection between mathematics and beauty. In particular, they noted that objects proportioned according to the golden ratio seemed more attractive.[5] Ancient Greek architecture is based on this view of symmetry and proportion.

Plato considered beauty to be the Idea (Form) above all other Ideas.[6] Aristotle saw a relationship between the beautiful (to kalon) and virtue, arguing that “Virtue aims at the beautiful.”


 
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And just a little sample of a beautiful natural self-organizing water pattern.

https://cosmos-images1.imgix.net/file/spina/photo/11243/FractalSnowflake.jpg?ixlib=rails-2.1.4&amp;auto=format&amp;ch=Width%2CDPR&amp;fit=max&amp;w=1920

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Proof that animals like music. In spite of the terrible quality and selections. But it seems animals do respond to rythms.

34
It’s not only between asceticism and indulgence (which is what you all advocate) but also about non judgment and nonduality, it’s no extremes or judgement for reality is empty of our judgments about it and such judgments lead to suffering. THAT is the middle path.
This is not coherent enough for me to respond to.
“the moment you try to change something is the moment you say that you’re broken. Self realization is understanding that the true you is whole in and of itself yet that there is no self.”
I couldn’t find a source for that. Is it paraphrased? It sounds like privileged westernized Buddhism. If I’m a slave, should I accept it? Should I not try to change my condition? And if I could, change the conditions that led to my slavery?
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Lausten said: I couldn’t find a source for that. Is it paraphrased? It sounds like privileged westernized Buddhism. If I’m a slave, should I accept it? Should I not try to change my condition? And if I could, change the conditions that led to my slavery?
This person can teach us about acceptance and why it accepts things as they are.
36
Of course nature can create beauty. Beauty is a potential of regular mathematical patterns in nature. Many animals display and respond to beauty.
Again nature doesn’t create beauty, that is simply what humans impose on reality. Animals don’t respond to beauty they respond to the structure or pattern or form they see (we cannot say that is beauty for we are not them). A peacock in reality is not beautiful no matter how much you want to say so. There is no connection between mathematics and beauty, too bad the Greeks weren’t smart enough to see it was just their opinion.
37
Animals don’t respond to beauty they respond to the structure or pattern or form they see
Do you understand how words work? Why do the animals respond to the forms? Why do they feel like they need a drink when they are thirsty, then feel relief when they see a clear stream, then other sensations when they quench their thirst. I can use neutral words for all that, and describe every cellular response, or I can say, that stream is pretty and tasted good. We call it pretty because it is something connected to making our moment better, as in, we don't die of thirst. It's really not that hard of a concept. The only argument you could make against this is that it is not better to live. There are some very rare cases where that is true, but it's generally not the case.
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No that’s not why we call it pretty. The reality is that such judgments aren’t true or real, just mere opinion. We don’t know they feel relief that is just our guess. They feel pain for sure but relief is a mystery. Thirst is a biological need but beauty is imaginary.

39

Really? You’ve never had a drink of water? You know exactly how it feels.

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I know what it feels like in that I have sensory information but that’s all.