On Discussing the Self

3.14 pretty well explained it, but, Xian, really? Did you say this?

We just pretend they do but if we stopped as actually asked ourselves why we even bother, we will see that there ultimately wasn’t any real foundation to any of it.
What do you think Buddhism is? What was Guatama doing sitting there under that tree? His answer was, it does and doesn't matter, and we've been talking about that ever since. Have you figured out something that he didn't? What is this "ultimately" that you keep talking about? Does it disturb you that there is a quantum field somewhere that is waiting to take back the matter it left behind after the Big Bang? Why? Those ripples in the field don't care about you and you have no reason to care about them.

Rat once again you are saying things that are irrelevant. Maslows hierarchy is bunk for a number of reasons, one of which includes that self actualization doesn’t exist and that the needs are culturally based as well. HG of the past had no self actualization needs. Also self actualization implies there is a self to actualize.

Belonging and love aren’t needs, and there are a fair amount of people who don’t need either one which just blows another hole in the hierarchy.

As I have tried to say also, such a pyramid is invalidated by the truth that nothing actually matters.

Lausten you are incorrect he didn’t say it does and doesn’t matter. What he found was that it all ultimately does not matter, which is also part of the Heart Sutra which as the name suggests gets at the heart of reality

If nothing matters, why the endless searching? Why even say “nothing matters”? (Since saying that, or anything else, doesn’t matter?)

Lausten you are incorrect he didn’t say it does and doesn’t matter. What he found was that it all ultimately does not matter, which is also part of the Heart Sutra which as the name suggests gets at the heart of reality
Oh come on Xian. You have been going on for a year about how you read these web pages about Buddhist masters who say the self doesn't exist or nothing is real. Posts like this just prove that you are more intent on disagreeing with people here than you are on sharing your thoughts or gaining any understanding of anything.

Xian, I hope you know you are free to come here and get along with people. If you choose to post something positive and uplifting, you might be surprised at how much more enjoyable the responses are to read.

There’s no problem with disagreement and discussion and banter, so stick and make this part of your days the ‘funnest’ part.

TimB said,

If nothing matters, why the endless searching? Why even say “nothing matters”? (Since saying that, or anything else, doesn’t matter?)


Hehe, a self-defeating proposition.

If you want to see the importance of logic in real life, watch Judge Judy. Here’s a clip of a man losing his case in twenty-six seconds.

https://faithalone.org/blog/basics-of-apologetics-self-defeating-propositions/

It’s not about being positive it’s about being honest. Hence the “nothing matters” at the basest level of everything. That’s what’s so hard to deal with, that nothing is worth the value we give it because meaning is just something that we imagined.

Beyond its explicit topic, which is fascinating in itself, what stands out to me about this book is Berman’s dedication to exploring ideas of the greatest practical import while refusing to indulge in any kind of simplistic ideologizing. This rare combination turns out to be the real “message,” and makes this probably the most nuanced, thoughtful book I’ve ever read. In fact, the combination of his topic and his mode of exploring it is what allows him to so effectively expose that there is a hidden ideologizing tendency at the very root of civilized life, which, by remaining hidden, has essentially “run the show” of civilized life all along, to our detriment.

So, how to briefly (ok, not so briefly) review such a book without collapsing the very quality – its non-simplistic nuance – that makes it so valuable and outstanding? That would probably be impossible. But I cannot NOT say something about it, so here’s what I’ve come up with:

Imagine if, in earliest childhood, your whole organism had somehow been knocked off kilter – even if just a bit – in some fundamental way. As you grew up, everything you did would likewise be off kilter – but you would never consciously know it. Organismically, you would definitely sense something was “off”; but consciously you would think everything was “normal.” How could you know otherwise – especially if everyone around you was in the same boat?

Then imagine if someone was able to put into words exactly what it was that you only vaguely, subconsciously sensed was off kilter – and further, if that person was able to point directly to a specific, highly stress- and suffering-inducing behavior pattern you’d engaged in your whole life and was able to tell you, “This behavior pattern – which seems so necessary to you now – is actually only an attempt to compensate for what was knocked off kilter in you. Correct what is off kilter and you will be free to return to normal living.” Imagine the relief when your organismic sense of self (where you always knew something was off kilter) and your conscious self-awareness (where you didn’t) suddenly lined up and agreed with each other for the first time in your life.

All this is just to say that, as much as it may appear to be merely another book of dry academic research (and it is extremely intellectually rigorous – no New-Age fluff here), Wandering God is, in my view, really a hands-on diagnostic manual that lets us identify and address (if not solve) a genuine and very concrete problem at the core of our lives.

Right now, because of a few psychologically unbalancing changes in child-rearing that took place during the transition from nomadic, egalitarian, hunter-gatherer life to sedentary, hierarchical, agricultural-civilized life, which induce a sense of tension, alienation, and incompleteness deep inside each one of us, we become unknowingly caught up in a belief-behavior pattern that Berman identifies as “verticality”: the attempt to latch on to and merge with that one super-special “higher” something-or-other (however we conceive of it) with the hope of restoring the deep, subconscious, organismic sense of balance and completeness lost in early childhood. It is an attempt to escape from a world that we now mistakenly experience as lacking, degraded, “fallen,” and even evil into something pure, “higher,” and unquestionably good. As Berman puts it, verticality “is rooted in alienation, in not finding this world as enough.”

In one way or another, we all pursue vertical escape from the world. It feels absolutely essential to us, like it is simply what humans were “born” to do. So much so that we cannot imagine doing anything else; so much so that we project backwards and assume that humans have always done it. But it is no older than the civilized disruption of childhood balance. In earlier civilizations, people pursued verticality primarily through shamanistic trance and transcendent religion; today, we also add secular escapes. There are countless ways of trying to lose (or glorify) ourselves in something “higher” or “greater.” Some of the more obvious ones (beyond trance and religion) that either Berman mentions or that I can think of include: all-consuming, intense romance and sex; heroic creative-artistic endeavor; membership in powerful, prestigious institutions and corporations (religious, educational, governmental); military and athletic spectacle, fanfare, and pageantry; wild, drug-induced, “ecstatic” partying; life-and-death gang loyalty; blockbuster entertainment; grandiosely luxurious living; fantasy video games; becoming famous/worshipping famous people; and on and on. The intensity with which we pursue these sorts of things is not normal for our species. It is a trumped-up, artificial intensity created by first inducing imbalance and then attempting to overcome it.

Thus, whatever form it takes, the entire 10,000-year project of vertical pursuit has been but an artificial imposition on our true, healthy selves – an impossible, completely unnecessary attempt to compensate ourselves for the completely unnecessary loss of psychological balance. Balanced humans do not conjure up and feel the same kind of badness that we do – and hence feel no need to purge or fight it and make the ascent to an equally conjured up goodness.

In short, Berman is saying that the common thread running through civilized society – both religious and secular – is the artificial drive, born of imbalance, to latch on to something unequivocally, stupendously “good” and make a Really Big Deal out of it.

But then what is the alternative to verticality? What is truly normal for humans who have not been knocked off kilter and who are not therefore unknowingly driven to seek compensation? What is the non-artificially hyped-up way to experience the wholeness and balance that we now seek through substitute means? Berman calls the naturally arising hunter-gatherer mode of consciousness “paradox,” which he describes as simultaneously experiencing pure “animal” alertness (think of the intensely present “thereness” of a cat) along with our uniquely human self-awareness. Together, these create for hunter-gatherers a sense of “experiential immediacy” that is spread out in a diffuse, horizontal way across the whole world and in which “the ‘sacred’ is simply that which is present in front of them. To be alive, to participate in life in the here and now, is worship for these cultures.”

Such naturally balanced people have no grandiose religious (or other) institutions and no big-shot charismatic leaders or elites in which to get caught up and “lose oneself” or through which to “get ahead” and attain egoic self-glorification. “But isn’t that a ho-hum, boring, empty existence?” the vertically inclined civilized mind asks. We are conditioned to think so; but Berman is suggesting that the true richness and “intensity” of life comes from uninhibited directness of experience, not from false excitement generated by repeatedly imagining ourselves to be on the brink of overcoming an imagined incompleteness. Balance gives us an experience of life that is even more intense than verticality, but in a much more evenly “spread out” way. It truly is a paradox. Nothing is a Really Big Deal to balanced people – because everything is.

Now, this horizontal, paradoxical, no-big-deal, experiential immediacy may not be the solution to ALL human problems. But Berman forces us to wonder: If we have gotten off kilter in some fundamental way, doesn’t it make sense to at least look at this issue and perhaps even try to get back on kilter? Because what is the sense, really, in just forging ahead, trying to “progress” as we always do, when we are fundamentally – but unknowingly – off kilter and primarily caught up in blind attempts at compensation? The gift of Wandering God, then, is the opportunity to at least recognize a baseline of balanced normalcy and to then make real, blindness-free choices for ourselves. It’s a great gift, especially when we consider that, so far, virtually all attempted fixes and corrections to civilized life have been themselves – unknowingly, of course – of the vertical variety; and that they have therefore unwittingly perpetuated the imbalances/blindness underlying our troubles.

As someone who fancies himself to be quite familiar with the general themes Berman explores (aboriginal versus civilized consciousness and so on), I have to say that his distinction between vertical trance and horizontal paradox is one that I have not seen discussed in any depth by anyone else, and has been a major and valuable corrective to my understanding.

A couple of questions/criticisms: His last few pages acknowledge a positive role for the unitary consciousness associated with verticality; but this positive role is very slight – mainly a stage on the way to returning to horizontal paradox. (He offers Bernadette Roberts, author of “The Experience of No-Self,” as a model of someone who has made this traverse). But I have to wonder if this perspective really exhausts all of the possibilities inherent in consciousness that are worth exploring. Consciousness is a weird thing, it seems to me; and so there might still be a lot to it that we do not yet understand. Experiences like trance – or really, yogic samadhi – might therefore consist of more than what Berman seems to suggest. He may be perfectly right that almost all chasing after unitary consciousness has indeed been of the imbalanced escape variety; but still, there may also be some healthier, more mature, non-escapist approaches to the exploration of consciousness yielding results that do not quite fit into the picture he presents. It is hard to imagine that all of the apparent wisdom of all yogis and other spiritual practitioners has been based entirely in unconscious imbalance. Not that Berman comes right out and says that – but it is somewhat implied. I should add that I am thinking here of a relatively tiny handful of people who would probably come from less-developed (and usually eastern) cultures where children are not as deeply imbalanced early in life (places like Ladakh and such) and who therefore might still actually be quite comfortable with worldly life – but who find that they simply have a genuine desire to focus on exploring the “higher” possibilities inherent in consciousness. If they discover a spontaneous welling up of, say, unconditional love and compassion for all, should we automatically reject this as escapist delusion; or should we consider that this may indeed be a potential we all contain?

Also in his last chapter, Berman addresses the practical steps that might aid us (anyone who is interested) in the recovery of paradox. This section is very thin and mainly consists of warning (appropriately, I would say) against turning paradox into the next ideological “ism” – against, in other words, making a typically civilized-imbalanced attempt at returning to balance. My own sense is that there is much, much more to be said – of a down-to-earth, practical nature – about what is likely to be involved in a truly balanced return to balance.

note: I noticed some reviewers discredited Berman’s ideas because of a few references he makes to Freud; but as far as I can see, his thesis/approach in no way relies on the validity of Freud’s ideas or Freudian psychoanalysis.


This is from a review of Wandering God. It’s essentially saying that what you guys are arguing is rooted in an imbalance that is the result of our “vertical” society and is not normal.

In Wandering God, counterculture scholar Morris Berman goes counter-counterculture, taking on such hallowed figures as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. Following the lead of Bruce Chatwin'sSonglines, Berman discovers the natural state of humanity in our nomadic origins, taking us back not to the early civilizations and their myths but to our Paleolithic ancestors. While debunking Jung and Campbell, Berman draws on a range of anthropological studies to show civilization itself to be pathological, and religion and mysticism to be a coping response. What is natural, he says, is living in paradox, with a heightened sensitivity to our surroundings, in the timeless uncertainty of moment-to-moment living. Leaning toward what one might consider a Daoist or Zen sensibility, Berman serves up persuasive arguments, and his use of sources from Bernadette Roberts to Ludwig Wittgenstein are nothing short of virtuosic. However, his entire theory seems to stand or fall on whether one accepts the immense causal influence of the Freudian notion of infantile attachment, which, if not subject to the same types of methodological criticism he aims at Jung and Campbell, is at least vulnerable to a Wittgensteinian disentanglement. Berman admits that his theory is preliminary, and Wandering Godshould be read in that spirit. --Brian Bruya
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0791444422/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8

Xain, you are only the second person I have encountered that is so very happy being miserable. Please don’t try to deny it. If you were unhappy being miserable you would change.

Have a wonderfully miserable day!

Xain said,

…because meaning is just something that we imagined.


Is meaning therefore less true?

Everyone has something that is meaningfull to his/her life. The selection is infinite, but that is the beauty of imagination (controlled hallucination) to begin with, it covers all probabilities and some of them are bound to get really close to reality.

When that POV is shared by many, we call that a shared reality where we can relate to each other in a meaningful way. Empathy is the foundation of emergent social patterns.

 

Xian, here’s a quote from the wall of text you dumped on us (it’s the last sentence of the 11th paragraph): “Nothing is a Really Big Deal to balanced people – because everything is.

At the moment you see the world as a place where nothing matters. You are 180 degrees off: Everything matters.

When you understand that concept you will have the answer to almost all of your questions and be able to live a life that allows you to be a truly ‘balanced person’.

Oooooooooouuummmmmmmmmmmm.

 

Peace be with you Xian and all the fine souls who think you are worth ‘arguing’ with.

Apparently you ‘mean’ something to us.

Imagine that.

Rat you miss the point yet again and so do you Bob. Misery isn’t a choice. I just can’t unsee the things that would bring me back to being happy.

And Rat you misunderstood that line as everything mattering is essentially saying nothing matters. Also you neglected the rest of the text which shows that much of what you and everyone else on here are arguing for is not normal or natural.

Write, those people believe it to have meaning but that is because they don’t know better. Because they don’t question it and just take it to be so, like much of society. Meaning is not even close to actual reality.

“Misery isn’t a choice.”

No one’s saying that enjoying life or being happy is completely within your power. But it is 100% in you power to want to be happy, and unless you want to be happy, you never will be.

I know people living in circumstances better than 99.99% of the rest of the human population will ever be able to experience, who complain endlessly about everything and are torture to be with. I also know people living in crushing circumstances who are happy and a blast to be around. The only difference is attitude.

Some choose equanimity and happiness, and some choose dissatisfaction and unhappiness. Guess what… both groups are successful in achieving their chosen mental state.

Lots has to do with inherent personality and specific circumstances. I don’t know your circumstances so I’m not telling you that you can be happy at the drop of a hat by wishing to be. I’m saying you need to want to be happy in order to find happiness.

So, do you want to be happy? (Be honest in your answer. I know people who revel in pity so much that they only pretend to want to be happy in order to get more pity. That’s a very self-destructive mind-set.)

Apparently you ‘mean’ something to us.

Imagine that.


I was going to respond to the book review, but this really sums it all up much better. I get a bit frustrated with the bugger now and then, but I wouldn’t do that if I didn’t care.

I want to be happy but that is irrelevant to what IS, and as the block quote said what you guys are talking about is not normal and is only sought by humans because of an imbalance in us.

Also you’re better off responding to the actual review since that blurb doesn’t sum anything up

Xain: I want to be happy but that is irrelevant to what IS, and as the block quote said what you guys are talking about is not normal and is only sought by humans because of an imbalance in us.
"I want to be happy..." - Excellent!

…but that is irrelevant to what IS…” - False. It is demonstrably true that we can be either happy or not happy by choice. Every happy person you know proves you wrong.

…and as the block quote said what you guys are talking about is not normal and is only sought by humans because of an imbalance in us.” - Blah blah blah. Who gives a rat’s ass what some schmuck says about this stuff.

Maybe you should forget learning what gurus and philosopher wannabies have to say about all this irrelevant crap. Practically no one outside of keyboard warriors like us know or care about the stuff you obsess over, so it’s obviously not required to being able to live a fulfilling life (in fact I’d say you’re proof it prevents one from living a fulfilling life.)

Make a list of the things make you happy when you do them. Arrange the items in order of how easily/quickly they can be done with the easiest/quickest on top. Do the first one. Then do the second one. Then do the third one. Then do the fourth one. Then do the sixth one. Then go back and do the fifth one. (If “spending time worrying about whether things are real” or any other philosophical naval gazing is on the list, you didn’t understand the instructions.)