On Discussing the Self

General Discussion
81
Misery isn’t a choice.
Okay you have a point, we are biochemical beings.

Your words are taking it way past our grade scale, time to turn to professionals. One on one, not via Google. Though there’s a lot of information there.

Brains, genes and chemical imbalances – how explanations of mental illness affect stigma July 8, 2014

https://theconversation.com/brains-genes-and-chemical-imbalances-how-explanations-of-mental-illness-affect-stigma-28324

The Medical Biochemistry of Poverty and Neglect
Peter J Hotez

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4374519/

"Meaning is not even close to actual reality."
At first I was "oh Pleazzee."

So I reread it a few times, chewing on it so to speak.

I thought I’d ask you to explain it.

 

Then I finally realized that it’s a perfect example, of my whole Missing Key to NOMA thing.

There is Physical Reality, such as the fact that Earth created us, we are a transitory product of that Earth.

A very special one, but still . . .

We exist here because something very very special happened in this solar system and then on this planet in particular.

“We” is our individual and collective Human Mindscapes, experiencing the flood of incoming sensory information, as we go through our lives.

Physical Reality v. Mindscape

 

Meaning is not even close to actual reality! You’re just pissed off that reality doesn’t care what you think.

 

Xian, I’ve asked you before have you ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig?

If you have what did you think?

If you haven’t, what are you waiting for? :slight_smile:

 

82
“…and as the block quote said what you guys are talking about is not normal and is only sought by humans because of an imbalance in us.” – Blah blah blah. Who gives a rat’s ass what some schmuck says about this stuff.
I read the part you put up here and it makes me not want to read any further. How could either the author or the reviewer know about the emotional or psychological state of human beings 10,000 years ago? We know they had a fight or flight response just like we do. It was more adaptive to their environment, so you could say there was a "balance", but that means they were in situations where they really needed to fight or fly, often. The ones who survived, so the theory goes, were jumpier, they flew when the grass rustled, tiger or no tiger.

I guess the science is pretty good on how the agricultural revolution caused some weakening of some kind, I don’t remember the details, but I do remember that once we adjusted to the different diet and different daily routines, we ended up healthier. Eventually, some people could do nothing but devote their days to how light works, or what those wandering stars are, and that led to us landing on the moon. We are becoming more a part of this universe, not out of balance with it.

83

Xain, you might want to pick up a copy of Mad magazine. The pre-2018 issues are collectible.

Or, you might want to start you own. I suggest a title: Worry and be Miserable, subtitled how to find joy in misery.

You could get rich and famous and be so happy that you’d be the most miserable guy in the world.

84
Bob: "Xain, you might want to pick up a copy of Mad magazine. The pre-2018 issues are collectible."
Ahhhh, Mad magazine.

I used to collect them in the 80’s and had a subscription for two years in the early 90’s (not a particularly good thing to mention to girls when you’re in college). I still have a few good sized boxes full of them. Around the late 90’s they got some new artists and the general quality seemed to drop, so I stopped buying them. It’s been a few decades since I even picked a new one up to flip through.

My all time favorite is “The Bedside Mad”. Genius level art and writing. If Einstein and Newton had a child it would probably never be allowed to read that book. But I did and I loved it.

Even if they’re valuable as collectors I don’t know if I could part with my old Mad magazines. My old Cracked magazines are totally open to the highest (or any) bidder, but not my Mad’s.

85

You missed the point Rat. What IS is irrelevant to what I want or what makes me happy. In case you haven’t noticed, the link shows how much of what you are talking about isn’t normal and stems from an imbalance as a result of degraded child-rearing practices. Wanting to be happy pales in comparison to the facts as they are, which don’t really care about what I want.

And Lausten, this is the book where it came from if you want to know: Wandering God, Berman — Fear of Nature

86

Xian,

I’m taking an EdX course. They talked about the differences in approach to understanding a human action. The simple example was, a wink. If you see a boy winking, and know who he is winking at, and what happened before that, and some things going on in his head, either assumed or if he tells you, then you understand why he did that. At least to some degree of understanding. OTOH, if you see a picture of a boy you don’t know who is winking, you don’t know if there was a reason for it. You could only comment on the position of his eyelid and the muscles involved. You could guess he has a speck of dust in there. What you do, and this is not uncommon, is reduce the understanding of a wink in context, down to the physical explanation. It’s reductionist.

You do this with whole cultures though. You read some pieced together quotes about changes that happened 10,000 years ago and think you found an explanation for all of your confusion and feelings about how odd the world is. You say that was “normal” and “balanced”, based on what? Many people have written on that. If one of them was right, I think more people would have resonated with it by now.

BTW, I saw this as a movie. Check it out if you can. Neither Wolf Nor Dog, Nerburn — Fear of Nature

BTWW, 3point is smarter than he gives himself credit for. Definitely worth considering his words.

87

Hey! Where’d my post go? Pretty sure I put one here a while ago, Lausten even hinted at something I wrote in it in his last sentence.

Well that sucks. Maybe I’ll come back later when I have the time to write another.

88

As Anil Seth proposes; human cognition is the brain’s “best guess” of the meaning contained in the information which filters down through the senses.

This is why we experience optical and auditory illusions, where the brain receives information it does not quite know how to process and interpret.

It’s actually quite easy to make the brain switch back and forth. A remarkable flexibility of intuitive interpretation.

Move your eyes from one figure to the other and both dancers will switch their direction of turn.

It’s not the dancers that switch, its your brain that makes them switch. IOW, your brain is creating your reality from the inside out, not from the outside in.

89

3 point,

If your post disappears, try your page back arrow (upper left). Often the post appears posted. A little strange but satisfying when it works.

90

Wow is that binocular vision doing that thing to the brain? Cool trick.

 

91

Isn’t it the highlighting of the edges of the limbs as they pass in front of the rest of the body that makes the brain see a direction of rotation?

If the edges weren’t noticeable, I could see it being an optical illusion, but since there are obvious cues that indicate which side of the body each limb is on, it seems pretty unamazing.

Am I wrong?

92

3point4rat - missing post. I swear I read this in the thread. But it’s still in the Activity log. No idea why that happened.

“Wanting to be happy pales in comparison to the facts as they are, which don’t really care about what I want.” In other words, unless “the facts” care about what you want, you won’t be happy? Do you read what you type?
You refuse to acknowledge what we say because we don’t support your fake reasons for being perpetually depressed. Stop and think about what we say.

You say we miss every point your silly websites make. That seems unlikely- I’m not the brightest bulb on the tree but some of the folks here are way smarter than average, so if all of us have the same opinion of your silly websites, there’s a good chance we’re not the ones who are wrong.

And what are we supposed to do with endless comments on how meaningless life is when we all have lives with meaning? Answer: Exactly what we are doing, which is telling you to get your own meaning! No one’s going to knock on your door and hand you meaning. You have to put some thought into it, decide what is important, then do it. All this navel gazing is hurting, not helping, your quality of life.

I struggle to find ways of communicating how unnecessary and self-destructive your ideas are, without sounding mean or condescending. Hopefully you can see through my frustration to the fact I really do want you to be happy. Feel free to acknowledge anything we say that isn’t wrong- it’s annoying to only hear how wrong in all your responses. I know I’m not right all the time, but throw me a bone once in a while!

93

Cool. Thanks Lausten. I didn’t know there was a way of recovering posts that went AWOL.

 

94

Write, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Also Lausten I looked at your link but I’m not sure what you were getting at since that wasn’t the link that I showed you. The one where it said that balanced people don’t strive for things or seek to lose themselves in sex, romance, prestige, etc.

95
3point 14rat said,

Am I wrong?


No, you’re right, its the highlights along the limbs that trigger a reponse in the brain. In this case reversal of movement.

But now make this single dancer move at your will, she has no highlights and it’s more difficult to make her switch . Not everyone can do it.

 

96
Xain said,

Write, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.


“On discussing the self”

Does that not question your perceived relationship with the outside? What do you think the self is?

IMO, the self is your brain’s best guess who you are and that is a very fragile construct fashioned by the trillions of microtubules in your brain.

You might begin by asking what the self “is not” before you can ask what it is.

97
Also Lausten I looked at your link but I’m not sure what you were getting at since that wasn’t the link that I showed you. The one where it said that balanced people don’t strive for things or seek to lose themselves in sex, romance, prestige, etc.
My link was a different page of your link!!! In his introduction he says most of his work is just quoting others, with little comment from him. On the page I linked, he's quoting a guy who went and learned about indigenous ways. Exactly what you are talking about, and what your link is about.
98

off topic but, what’s up with this Xian,

Write, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Of course it's a tangent to the subject at hand, not on point, but if give it some thought, worthing tossing into the sauce in any event.

We do it all the time to add a little depth to what we are talking about or trying to explain.

 

Then rather than going with it, being wowed or not, at least thinking about it a little, you shit on it and the person who simply wanted to share some friendly ideas with you. After all you are here inviting this discussion. Or? Lighten up on us and yourself a little.

 

You make me think of Dungeons and Dragon Masters version of public dialogue. Every idea shared with you, is perceived as an incoming warrior ready to chop off your head and take all your points. So of course you’re so busy with your sword play deflecting the onslaught that you don’t have time for reflecting on anything but that ocean of savages trying to take you down.

I imagine I’m not the only that consider other CFI regulars as pals, in earlier days we’d a been at the local Inn chatting it up before going home. We all have our differences, may not even really like some pals, but you respect them, you all still feel like we’re on the same side (of what, human society, we are social animals)

 

 

99

NO my link was about that specific work which has given me trouble, not the other one on the page you were talking about. The one with wandering god was on about how balanced people don’t do any of the things that our current society regards to be normal. That is what I am talking about.

100
Then rather than going with it, being wowed or not, at least thinking about it a little, you shit on it and the person who simply wanted to share some friendly ideas with you. After all you are here inviting this discussion. Or? Lighten up on us and yourself a little.

 

You make me think of Dungeons and Dragon Masters version of public dialogue. Every idea shared with you, is perceived as an incoming warrior ready to chop off your head and take all your points. So of course you’re so busy with your sword play deflecting the onslaught that you don’t have time for reflecting on anything but that ocean of savages trying to take you down.

I imagine I’m not the only that consider other CFI regulars as pals, in earlier days we’d a been at the local Inn chatting it up before going home. We all have our differences, may not even really like some pals, but you respect them, you all still feel like we’re on the same side (of what, human society, we are social animals)


There was nothing to wow at because it was not relevant to the discussion at all. It’s what he usually does.