On Discussing the Self

So in other words you have nothing to present but air. So far all we can say is that we are bodies.

Xain: " a “soul” is what is in doubt."

I believe the “soul” (your term) is instanced along with the physical body at the moment of conception. I have seen nothing to make me accept that life comes from anything other than life. I think life is evidence of the soul. The egg and the sperm both exhibit life. We accept that the physical body results from a blend of physical elements from both parents hard wired with instructions for developing a body. Is it too much of a stretch to think that the soul is derived from elements contributed from the parents?

I think that when you question the existence of the soul you question the existence of life. For example, I do not accept that an AI type robot, even an extremely advanced one like the Terminator, would be alive and have a soul. Such a device might exhibit almost all the motions of a living being but I would not expect it to have the same sense of “I” that we have. I think it would be fairly easy to accept that any similar sense approaching “I” would come from its programming and would not be an indication of an instance of life.

It seems to me that the qualities of life, and the lack thereof, were explored rather nicely in the figure of Data in the Star Trek series and later in Spock’s regeneration.

Well, I’ll give you that. Data was a fascinating character and made for some wonderfully thought provoking episodes.

Xain said,

So in other words you have nothing to present but air. So far all we can say is that we are bodies.


Actually we are biomes and our biome consists of 10 % human cells and 90 % bacterial cells and if we want to break this down even further the our genetic distribution is 1% human genes and 99% bacterial genes. We are more bacterial than we are human.

As you can see when we speak of being human, we basically speak of a 3 lb lump of neurons which can only make a “best guess” of what it is and what it does in the world.

Pretty neat, huh?

A “soul” is a concept of something that has supernatural qualities. It is allegedly a “spiritual” part of ourselves that survives eternally. I think that it is superstitious BS.

Living creatures (organisms) are alive until they are not. A soul did not enter its body early on, or depart at death. Because “soul” is just a fabricated concept. If an AI robot were to gain consciousness, it would not have a soul either.

Sree said to TimB:

Cogito, ergo sum is a Latin philosophical proposition by René Descartes usually translated into English as “I think, therefore I am”. (Wikipedia).
The critique against the proposition is the presupposition of an “I” doing the thinking, so that the most Descartes was entitled to say was: “thinking is occurring”. (Wikipedia)
You see, Tim. It’s not only me but there are folks out there questioning the existence of the self, the thinker doing the thinking. Is it science or pseudo scientists jumping to the conclusion (i.e. forming a baseless belief) that the self exists and it came out from the brain?

TimB replies to Sree:

Ok, braniac. Good luck with not having a sense of self. What? Oh you DO have a sense of self, but you just want to point out that it COULD BE that what you are sensing is not real? Yes. Maybe nothing is real. Maybe this post I am writing and all of the ones you have written are not real. Maybe nothing we can perceive is real. OR we could assume that most of what we can perceive IS real, and then we can actually function in life.

TimB said,

Cogito, ergo sum is a Latin philosophical proposition by René Descartes usually translated into English as “I think, therefore I am”.


Which is a profound posit.

However, Descartes also came up with the thought experiment of a “brain in a vat”, where the brain is separated from the body, placed in a vat and hooked up to electrodes which feed the brain information of walking outside on a sunny day.

The brain (without eyes) will not know the difference and the “I” is in fact living in a waking dream where it does not know reality.

In regards to thoughts, what about memories. Are we the sum of our life experiences and moments? What if we forgot all that, then what? Is there a true self under all that which endures and would respond in the same way or would it be “someone else”?

I guess I’m just disturbed by the idea that what I take to be “me” isn’t really that solid or stable and how memory loss could sway it all. Like if I lost my memory tomorrow then would I still react the same? I guess maybe that’s what Buddhism calls the conditional self.

1st off your memory is probably not all you think it is cracked up to be. It is not a recording of historical events in your life. It is a facsimile of that, but it is recreated each time remembered. And it is subject to re-creation each time remembered, so that it could become a less and less accurate representation of how you experienced the original event.

So whaddaya think about that? Could this evoke your umpteenth existential knowledge crisis?

 

 

Write, Maybe we are in Descartes Matrix. But unless someone either brings me a red pill (or whatever color it was) that lets me see the world as it is, (or they provide other convincing evidence) I think it is best to assume that I am NOT in the Matrix.

I mean like the things I like, my traits, if I forgot all that, or if any of that stuff even makes me up? It just makes me wonder how solid we think a self is when memory is so fragile and how we think we feel now is how we always feel.

How does one build on any of that and how does one live and plan life if the building blocks it’s founded on aren’t very stable.

By living today to the best of your abilities and talents. Just came back from my last walk with Maddy, often it irritates me that I need to take her out, yet again, yet every time I’m back outside, such as tonight with the big full moon, snow still on the ground to add that magical sparkles, Maddy sniffing out the latest wildlife doings, lately coyote have really been loud and closer in than usual, so need to keep her on the line tonight. Still the whole thing is beautiful and I’m grateful to be so fortunate.

That’s a moment in my life, gotta take the dog for a piss, but I get to touch the sky and muse on life. Though few are blessed with the back yard I get to romp in. Still, even under a bridge by a river, or park, I’ve found refuges all sorts of places.

It’s the moment and what you are aware of, what you chose to be present to, how you do the tasks life or a job assigns you. One step after the other.

Stop thinking so much and do living, involve yourself with life and people. The rest will simply unfold.

There is no real meaning to your life beyond what you manage to give it. Guess that’s what it comes down to you get to choose, and you do choose.

 

You don’t have to be brave, to act brave, then life happens. Try to be true to yourself, sure obsess over what everyone else thinks now and then, especially the great thinkers, but after that it’s you dealing with the circumstances that come your way, so you’d better carve your own course.

 

I get so tired of this seeming emptiness you project, especially when despite all the rest of the horrors out there today, despite all my writing failure, I’m feeling complete and solid. Fortunate enough to connect with the little ones, fortunately enough to connect with my parent’s and help them remember their lives and children and the good times, remind them of their good accomplishments, allow them to feel satisfaction with their lives, stuff that makes death a little less scary. To give love, receive love, be a gritty shit head now and then, be a sweetie other times, every situation bringing out a slightly different version of you. So which one is you, all of them.

So Xain I need to share something that’s put the profoundest joy in my heart, the connection with another little human, that grandson, sparks a flying. Our last visit a couple weeks ago he was at 8 months old, I arrive, come into the room and as a curious little guy he checks out the new person. I say my hello and allow him to move toward me, I never rush a kid, then for a few moments, I can actually watch his little eyes and face crinkle a little as he’s actively searching my face, trying to recollect something - I could witness all those synaptic calculations going on in there, then he cracks the big grin, yes I Know YOU, then came that sweet hug.

The connection between us is talked about, that makes me feel good because it means it’s not just my imagination running away with me.

The thing is, I’ve always been able to totally tune into babies and younger children, with this little guy the first time at two weeks and he could barely see, month later he seeing, month later grasping, this time watching him learning to crawling. Lift and thrust, evolving every day looking more like dignified crawling. I only had four days there, and only half a day alone with, plus night duty ain’t what it used to be, he pretty much sleeps through the night. (Modern marvels, that baby monitor was new for me, my luddite tenancy definitely has its pragmatic counter weight and I feel in love with the thing.) When he wakes, a little company, rubbing his back soothing words and such and he’s right back down. The little person is starting to peek through and it’s awesome to watch. He even takes my direction when dressing, pulling, pushing hands arms, stuff like that. Watching those attentive eyes taking everything, watching his head and ears and noticing how he’s tracking what’s happening in the house. stuff like that. Beats that football game every time. Well for the likes of me.

Now Xain, I could spend all my time going crazy about the hideous world that awaits this precious little person and all my other younger friends and family as they grow through their lives and our world disintegrates around them. It’s a monstrosity that could send me to the luny farm, if I let it. And I’ve no intention of that.

Just hand me another one of them fuckitalls. :wink:

Guess I just thought I’d share my spare time belly button gazing since I read so much of yours. Not that I’m knocking it.

I appreciate your posts and enjoy your participation .

how does one live and plan life if the building blocks it’s founded on aren’t very stable.
A good foundation and one block at a time.

Square, level, plumb.

Oh but you’re saying when the foundation isn’t very stable. That’s a tough one, you are today the product of all the days that came before.

I fear you put the finger on why things are falling apart in our society and upon our planet.

We got too distracted with Hollywood and stuff and wanting to be bigshots, forgot about curiosity, desire to learn, respect for complexity and reality.

Generations of kids raised by the TV, now being raised by social media controlled by AI and malicious intentions.

 

 

Do the best you can with what you have.

 

CC that wasn’t even close to what I was saying. That’s overlooking that your entire musing isn’t grounded in reality.

Making meaning oddly enough doesn’t make things matter, it’s just pretending that they do. Meaning is just a phantom in our heads and to only way we don’t see through it is to convince ourselves it’s there and that it matters. I can’t pretend anymore, I can’t go back to believing the illusion.

Also you are wrong that life just unfolds. It doesn’t. Involving yourself with people leads to disappointment and same with life. I mean Buddhism said life was “unsatisfactory” (to use their word). You’re also wrong about being true to yourself since the whole point of this thread was that there was no self to be true to.

It seems like you are still in the illusion that I wish I could go back to.

To be honest it’s my fault for thinking you had insight on this when the first line of your post is simply untrue

CC-v.3 said,

Do the best you can with what you have.


I totally agree. And if you observe closely you’ll discover that you have a lot of marvellous phenomena to enjoy.

If god and the bible is all you have, you’re leading a hollow life, prescribed by others and not of your own making.

And if that turns into zealotry, your proslytizing becomes nothing more than interfering with other’s chosen paths.

Xain read the last few lines, they touch on your question.

Guess I was just sick of listening to your emptiness and I wanted to present what things look like from another persons personal perspective.

Your obsession with meaning or lack there of, is spinning wheels. Time moves fast and in the end all will revert back to cosmic dust and nothing will remember us.

That means you are absolutely right, nothing has meaning, we imbue things with meaning. Why do you find that detestable?

You think that makes Life a lie. I don’t.

Because I appreciate this Earth for what it is, I appreciate this moment I’ve been blessed with, I love life in motion, it’s plenty for me. It’s appears to be not enough for you.

So people make up fairytales to sooth their insecurities and fears;

If god and the bible is all you have, you’re leading a hollow life, prescribed by others and not of your own making.

@Write4U

 

Furthermore, it’s fantasy totally disconnected from the reality of this Earth (and Universe) that created us, for better or worse.

@Cc


See, it’s all rather simply Xian.

 

 

@Xian

To be honest it’s my fault for thinking you had insight on this when the first line of your post is simply untrue


The first line of my post:

By living today to the best of your abilities and talents.
You say that is simply untrue? Why would you think that? Can you explain?

It’s only marvelous if you don’t know better.

For your first remark, most people don’t have talent or ability, I know I sure don’t. So there isn’t really anything to make of. Even if they did so, you would still be wrong if their talents were average or not much and they didn’t amount to much. So then they would end up with the “I tried but it still wasn’t enough” sadness.

Of course you have talents. I’m not talking about super stars stuff here. I’m talking about the things that make you tick.

And okay the people who don’t have any inner drive, no curiosity, no joy in the day and breathing, then yeah guess it is an empty experience, every bit as nihilistic as you say, but that’s your choice.

It seems to me from the outside that you keep wanting to find something more - the secret may be that it’s you who must create that something more - no one else can do that for you.

It’s not bling and champagne I’m talking about, it’s studying your own character and doing the best with what you have. All of us are a heart beat away from better or worse, some days are diamonds, some are coal. and all that.

How about finding joy in looking around and seeing less fortunate that you and consider, there but for providence go I.

 

Gotta get to bed but I was thinking of a night night song for you, enjoy,

 

 

Okay, before you need to correct me, I guess it’s not joy you are looking for, it’s “meaning”

Of course some might suggest there’s meaning in sincere joy.

@Sree

So then they would end up with the “I tried but it still wasn’t enough” sadness.


What were their goals?

Like I said, I’m talking about understanding yourself - cold blooded honest self assessment, learning to understand and even appreciate your limitations and figuring out how to make your way within those limitations, which provides experiences. Lots of falling down, lots of set backs, but the key is honestly appreciating who you are and being content enough to find/develop a way within those restrictions. Surprising things can happen.*

Perhaps, in the end it’s the dignity of the effort that might matter as much as anything else. Does that make sense I’m simply talking about how we handle our day to days - you want grand drama big prizes. Sorry there aren’t any.

 

  • Sometimes, somewhere you realize that some of your worst impulses, might be inextricably tied to enabling some of your best impulses. Which opens up whole new ways of looking at your own behavior, understanding it enough to make constructive changes in the things that bring shit into your life. All very simple, no pie in sky comic books from me :slight_smile:

 

Before we die, we want to know we did okay, to be able to honestly do that, you need to put in your time and pay your dues. Maybe that’s the best for meaning we can do?