Where did you read this stuff? -- SreeAre you questioning the history? I know it's from a while ago, but it fit with your "disrupting people eating" theme. Also, it shows that what you call "law and order", I call, "police kicking people out of a peaceful seat at lunch". The conservative, the one who supports the traditions, the one who is protected by the unjust laws, doesn't have to get violent with the ones they want to oppress, they just call the police and have them do it for them. This happened in Portland this summer, the 4th amendment was violated by unknown troops sent in by the federal government who just grabbed people off the street, held them for a bit then let them go. That's just one example. Violations of human rights happen every day, by the police.
Where did you read this stuff?I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that where Lausten "reads stuff" is definitely NOT from websites created within the last couple of years years, many the last few months, declaring that they are sources for "news" and registered by people who choose to use domain anonymization services to prevent you from figuring out who they are like most of the current sources of conservative "news". When it's convenient the right blasts "unnamed sources". But when a journalist who writes a story about Hunter Biden's laptop not only doesn't name their source, but also refuses to put their own name on the article, THEN it's perfectly legitimate that one unnamed source quotes a SECOND unnamed source...somehow. But Lausten seem to be a little obsessive, perhaps even anal about having "standards" for his sources. Not sure what's up with that. If it says what you want to hear it's good, right?
Are you questioning the history? - LaustenI am not questioning what happened 60 years ago in Alabama. I am questioning your rationale in citing that to justify "peaceful protestors" behaving badly in the public space today. Come to think of it, I don't think it is rational of me to question your rationale. You may think it is fair for Jews in Germany today to push Germans around for what happened 75 -80 years ago. I think it is sick. Let's agree to disagree. Ok?
I am questioning your rationale in citing that to justify “peaceful protestors” behaving badly in the public space today. -- SreeWhat you are doing is attempting to twist anything I say to fit whatever narrative you feel like going off on at the moment. it's easy to be inconsistent. It's easy to put "peaceful protestors" in quotes, as if that means something. It doesn't. People are either peaceful or they are not. I don't ever condone "bad" behavior. I do understand the power of non-violent protest and civil disobedience.
The question for 2020 is, what is the behavior of the police that we should be questioning? Simplistic terms like “good cops” and “bad apples” and “bad actors” or even “defund” don’t forward that conversation to where it needs to be. I’ve watched progress of community policing and social work throughout my lifetime but it has been too slow and this year it has been racing backwards.
I do understand the power of non-violent protest and civil disobedience. - LaustenDo you understand it? The crucial question is, do you see any value in it? Law and order is a prerequisite for civilized society. Forcibly occupying public space to protest and depriving other people's rightful use of it is an act of violence. Have you ever been pushed around before? Do you know what it feels like? I don't care what your complaint about the government is. I don't have a complaint. I have a business to run and your marching up and down the street is wrecking my business. Exercising your right to protest is denying my right to make a living. It's not that I don't care about your right to protest but all your marching and looting is destroying the country for the rest of us. And I think that's selfish.
Do you understand it? -- SreeYep. And from what you said, you get it perfectly. You just don't like it.
Law and order is a prerequisite for civilized society. -- SreeYep. And that means the people enforcing the order must not be above the law. When that happens, protest is the proper response, lawful protest.
I don’t care what your complaint about the government is. -- SreeYep. That's why I support the protesting, because people don't care. When you are born in a democracy that has laws designed to help you thrive, your part of the contract is to care.
but all your marching and looting -- SreeAnd that's the part you don't understand. You don't understand where the looting starts and the marching ends. The most important line for you to learn about is when a peaceful march suddenly gets declared unlawful for no real reason and the police just start shooting, rubber bullets or otherwise. When the police can make their own laws on the spot, and violate rights guaranteed in the Constitution, up to and including killing someone, that's when law and order is no longer being kept by the police and it's the police that need to be policed.
If you follow up on the investigations into looting, you will find that the people who have been arrested for that were not directed by protesters or any group associated with the protesters. Most of them were not from the neighborhoods where the incidents being protested occurred.
Yep. And from what you said, you get it perfectly. You just don’t like it.I have no issue with protests. It’s the disruption they cause to everybody else that I don’t like. Protests are allowed in Singapore in a designated place set aside for public protests and free speech. This allows for business as usual for the rest of society. Don’t you think that we should know how to do that on our own without being told?
Yep. And that means the people enforcing the order must not be above the law. When that happens, protest is the proper response, lawful protest.I agree, in principle. It’s the way you go about it that needs to be addressed. The law is clear on the proper way for you to protest against people tasked with enforcing law and order. It’s not different from the law you are enforcing in this forum. You cannot argue with the cop anymore than I can argue with you about the foolish way you are running this forum. You obey the police as instructed and lodge your protest against him later to the judge. It's a lot tighter here, right?
Yep. That’s why I support the protesting, because people don’t care. When you are born in a democracy that has laws designed to help you thrive, your part of the contract is to care.Don’t read the wrong meaning into what I said. Let me quote what I said in the very same post # 336969: “It’s not that I don’t care about your right to protest but all your marching and looting is destroying the country for the rest of us. And I think that’s selfish.”
As you correctly pointed out, our democracy has laws designed to help you exercise your right and duty to care. Just play by the rules as laid down by ALL in our democracy.
And that’s the part you don’t understand. You don’t understand where the looting starts and the marching ends. The most important line for you to learn about is when a peaceful march suddenly gets declared unlawful for no real reason and the police just start shooting, rubber bullets or otherwise. When the police can make their own laws on the spot, and violate rights guaranteed in the Constitution, up to and including killing someone, that’s when law and order is no longer being kept by the police and it’s the police that need to be policed.Perhaps, there is a way to cut out the confusion so that even idiots can understand. Peaceful marches won’t get declared unlawful if they are organized in consultation with City Hall. This way, everybody knows what is what and when is when. The public will be informed of the event and the police will provide manpower to close off streets and redirect traffic. No would-be looters or felons would even come near such a peaceful protest by responsible caring citizens of a civilized society.
If you follow up on the investigations into looting, you will find that the people who have been arrested for that were not directed by protesters or any group associated with the protesters. Most of them were not from the neighborhoods where the incidents being protested occurred.I believe you. If you are ever arrested in a protest melee and hauled into an unmarked van and I am the guy in charge of the law enforcers, I would vouch for you and order your immediate release with an apology. How’s that?
Just play by the rules as laid down by ALL in our democracy. -- SreeUp until the mid 1960's black people didn't get to vote in practice due to extremely unfair rules, especially in the south. It's funny that you put in ALL in caps with no irony.
I agree, in principle. It’s the way you go about it that needs to be addressed. -- SreeWelcome to America in 2020. We almost all agree in principle. And I just addressed the "way you go about it".
How’s that? -- SreeThat's silly.
Up until the mid 1960’s black people didn’t get to vote in practice due to extremely unfair rules, especially in the south. It’s funny that you put in ALL in caps with no irony. - LaustenThe word "fair" means "in accordance with the rules or standards" applicable - at the time of reckoning - to ALL qualified members of society.
So, if you could choose when to be born, without knowing your race or class, would you choose to be born in a time when the rules and standards said people could be born into slavery?
So, if you could choose when to be born, without knowing your race or class, would you choose to be born in a time when the rules and standards said people could be born into slavery? - LaustenYou are asking a loaded question. Be that as it may, I would choose never to be born regardless of the rules and standards. Rules are meant for people whose very nature is unruly.
Slavery is a punishment.
It’s a philosophical question
You are having trouble with it because you are incapable of taking yourself out of the equation. When you are determining what’s fair you can’t say what’s fair for everyone else then make exceptions for you.
You are having trouble with it because you are incapable of taking yourself out of the equation. When you are determining what’s fair you can’t say what’s fair for everyone else then make exceptions for you. - LaustenI have no trouble answering your philosophical question because I am not in the equation, as you put it. My life situation is as exceptional as Prince Siddharta's who was shielded from social injustice.
To you, it may be a question of fairness: the haves and the have-nots, the slaves, and the slave-owners. You are constantly looking for the bad guys who are messing up the world. You have a score to settle.
To me, social injustice is the human condition. There are no bad actors. The situation is what it is. Given that, I would rather not be alive.
My life situation is as exceptional--SreeThe question is designed to take the individual's situation out of the equation. You were trying to say something about fairness, now you are saying you are special. It can't be both.
You are constantly looking for the bad guys --SreeYou are the one talking about law and order. Isn't that what cops do? Look for bad guys?
To me, social injustice is the human condition. There are no bad actors. The situation is what it is. Given that, I would rather not be alive.Good point about social injustice being the human condition. To split hairs on this topic, I'd say it is part of the human condition rather than the human condition.
I also would not say there are no bad actors. There are, but not as many as the wokesters imagine.
There are, but not as many as the wokesters imagine. -- SreeI don't think the debate is about how many bad guys there are.
Good point about social injustice being the human condition. To split hairs on this topic, I’d say it is part of the human condition rather than the human condition. - oneguyAre you saying that not all humans are unjust and there are people who are inherently good? It may sound pessimistic on my part, but I see mankind as an ill wind that blows nobody any good.
Throughout history, the human landscape has been drenched with suffering and littered with corpses, the aftermath of constant conflicts. There are no white owners of black slaves today; and yet, we would dig up the past to give a pass to the venting of fury against white people now. The motivation to do this is akin to the forces at play in nature churning up violent hurricanes and destructive wildfires.
Is human nature different from mother nature? There are no actors making bad choices out there any more than there are any in us. This is my way to see life. It put an end to this never-ending dance of hate and stops me from sticking it to them when the election is over day after tomorrow.
There are no white owners of black slaves today; and yet, we would dig up the past to give a pass to the venting of fury against white people now.A reductionist argument which ignores the ongoing hardship that any and all minority groups still face today as a result of American's racist past. But that's all of your arguments. There is no substance to anything you say. You just spout whatever meaningless and hateful nonsense comes to your head in the moment without the slightest concern for any consistence more than "conservatism can never, ever, EVER be wrong about ANYTHING...EVER!" Hell, you've shown that in this very thread with two consecutive posts.
Right-Wing terrorism targets left-wing disruptions the way anti-biotics deal with bacterial infections.There you not only did not deny that right-wing terrorism existed, you championed it as being a good thing. Yet in your very next post...
I don’t think terrorism is right-wing at all. Left-wing yeah but right-wing never. The right is for law and order...So two days later, in your very next post, when it suited what you thought in that moment, right-wing terrorism didn't even exist at all.
And your logic and claims there are just astounding in that they are such feeble and pathetic attempts to support your point of view that you obviously don’t even feel that you need to support your point of view, you just claim it and that makes it true. The plot to kidnap a governor wasn’t a crime except maybe kidnapping? Because every American apparently has a right to try to overthrow any democratically elected leaders they didn’t vote for? WTF is wrong with you? That’s the stupidest damned argument I’ve ever seen anyone seriously put forth.
So yeah, in short, everything you have to say is pure nonsense and a figment of your own demented mind. It has no basis in reality.
A reductionist argument which ignores the ongoing hardship that any and all minority groups still face today as a result of American’s racist past. - widdershinsWhat makes you think that the majority group (if it exists) is not facing ongoing hardship as a result of mankind's fall from grace? Everybody has an excuse for hardship in his own life. Grow up! Stop whining and get with the program.
So two days later, in your very next post, when it suited what you thought in that moment, right-wing terrorism didn’t even exist at all."Right-wing terrorism" is a phrase coined by the left-wing associated with the street protests and the permissiveness of left-wing public authorities that not only refused to enforce public order. All of those incidents of criminal acts falsely-claimed to be right-wing had been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Are you saying that not all humans are unjust and there are people who are inherently good? It may sound pessimistic on my part, but I see mankind as an ill wind that blows nobody any good.I think humans are good and bad. We are too complex to be one or the other, though some people are more complex than others.
Throughout history, the human landscape has been drenched with suffering and littered with corpses, the aftermath of constant conflicts. There are no white owners of black slaves today; and yet, we would dig up the past to give a pass to the venting of fury against white people now. The motivation to do this is akin to the forces at play in nature churning up violent hurricanes and destructive wildfires.The rioting is more about police killing lowlife blacks than about making the White man pay for slavery. There are people motivated by that but they are rare and usually mentally ill. They are usually White, as well!
Is human nature different from mother nature? There are no actors making bad choices out there any more than there are any in us. This is my way to see life. It put an end to this never-ending dance of hate and stops me from sticking it to them when the election is over day after tomorrow.Fair enough. I think human nature is different from the rest of nature because we are emotional and we need to see people as “actors”. Mother Nature doesn’t care.