Meanwhile Trump is Guilty

Politics and Social Issues
61

I think the Mueller report was a sham, in a sense. Mueller, technically did what he was charged with doing. He also wrote that report that was written in a tortured but, technically, accurate style, that was so dense, only a small % of Americans were able to read thru it. But some things he stated in a backwardish, hard to comprehend way. And I think that it was his way of technically doing what he was charged with doing, while being oh so careful not to say anything directly about evidence that would suggest T rump was guilty of anything. His rationale for this, is that the dept of justice says the sitting POTUS cannot be indicted for anything. AND Mueller “reasoned” that since the President cannot be indicted, that the report could also not say anything that reflected badly on anyone who was not charged with anything.

Despite that, the report said that T rump was not found by the investigation to be cleared of several instances of obstruction of justice. He could not outright say that T rump should be further investigated for those counts. The report also said that Russians had done a massive and systematic attack on our 2016 election. And that they were working to get T rump elected. And that the T rump campaign was open to Russian help. But when Attorney General, Bill Bahr was given the Mueller report, he basically passed off anything being particularly wrong. He presented the report as being a full exoneration of the President. The T rumpists and T rump, especially, were touting that there was “No Collusion - No Obstruction”. For about a month, therefore, until the actual report was released, that is all the public knew - and we did not know not to trust Bill Bahr, at the time. So the “No Collusion - No Obstruction” story set in pretty solidly.

I said that T rump is not legally guilty. (He can’t be, because he is effectively above the law according to the DOJ, other than thru Impeachment.) But I firmly believe that he is guilty because of overwhelming evidence. As far as being “crazy”, he clearly seems to have a serious personality disorder, but he is not insane in the way that can get a person committed. All in all your gut feelings about T rump are pretty much correct.

There seems to be more confirmation from witnesses, coming in, sometimes daily, that builds the case against T rump. But the Dems have to get the most solid evidence possible to have even a remote chance to get 20 Republican Senators to acknowledge his guilt and vote for his removal from office. So that is why the investigation continues. And again, you are not understanding how the Impeachment process works. We are not at a trial stage until the Articles of Impeachment are sent to the Senate. That will take a while yet. I wonder, did you complain about all the money that was wasted on the endless Benghazi hearings and Hillary email hearings? Surely your sense of fairness would have objected to all that.

(If your mother was the most loving person you ever knew, then I doubt that she would be a Republican today, were she still alive.)

I commend you for expressing your thoughts as an independent. It takes some balls to express yourself to folks that have strong disagreements with some of your opinions. Still, I think you have a lot to learn on this topic.

62

Lausten,

No one has backed me into a corner. My remarks about the final outcome of Trump investigation were my thoughts only. I am not a prophet or palm reader. Everyone on this sight that has at least a dinosaur brain knows that Trump will be impeached, but the Senate is unknown. I am guessing the outcome. The facts are not all in. The final charges may be so damning that the Republicans may be forced to remove him in the Senate. If they do, I have my thoughts. If they don’t I have my thoughts, so, I wrote them down.

Whatever the outcome, we are a Republic. We are a nation of laws. I will respect that outcome, even though the Dems, I believe, tainted the investigation before Trump officially took office, even though the Republicans I fear, will not remove Trump, even if guilty. Will those on this forum, that I perceive as filled with hate, accept the legal outcome?

Maybe I am in another world. But it is my world. It is my thoughts, but I refuse to let my thoughts indict or convict anyone until due process. The only remarks that anyone can indict me for is that I had a “ perception” there was a lot of hate on this forum. It was my thoughts only. I never meant to insult anyone.

In forums, people speak their thoughts. If you do not like my thoughts, then all I can say is that “we have a disagreement”.

I have another thought. When it is all over, Trump will fire his lawyer, his wife, and then his dog.

63

I’m getting bored with the discussion about tone, so I’m going to ignore that as best I can. I’d like some clarification on this though, since it is the consequence of this theme of yours of waiting for the official verdict.

I believe, tainted the investigation before Trump officially took office, even though the Republicans I fear, will not remove Trump, even if guilty. Will those on this forum, that I perceive as filled with hate, accept the legal outcome?
If you mean would I accept the outcome of the process if it was obvious that Trump was guilty, yet the vote was to not remove him? No, I wouldn't accept that. I'd volunteer for the underground resistance of an illegal government. I don't accept that I should have to stop at a stop sign at 2am in the tiny town I live in, I'm sure as hell not going to accept a criminal as President.

That question actually needs to be asked in reverse, if after mountains of evidence and public testimony clearly showing a pattern of not being concerned for the rule of law that he swore to uphold, the political process does not remove him, will that be accepted? Are there enough people who are opposed to the laws of this country that they are willing to fight against it?

64

The scary thing is that about 35% of the country, and on average the most heavily armed, mentally unstable 35%, would actually support Trump as dictator for life. If he loses the 2020 elections I’m not sure there won’t be at least a few domestic terrorist attacks on the media, Democrats and whoever else their demented little minds see as “the enemy” to stole Trump’s God-given and rightful power.

65

<p style=“padding-left: 40px;”>Widdershens,</p>
<p style=“padding-left: 40px;”>I agree. A conservative preacher said that repercussions from this event will fracture this country like the civil war. He was immediately condemned for his statement. He meant that it has been over 160 years since the civil war, yet there is still division. There remains a dispute over removing civil war monuments, memorials, and confederate flags in cemeteries, and the list goes on.</p>
<p style=“padding-left: 40px;”>I fear repercussions no matter the outcome of this investigation. The inquiry must continue. However, it should be a reminder that the investigation of Trump must be non biased, and the final outcome should be based on facts, not hate, not politics. Repercussions will be bad enough if the truth comes out. It will be worse if Trump is removed for a vendetta.</p>

66

Lausten,

You finally said it. You will not abide by laws you selectively disagree with. Thank you for your honesty.

67
Lausten,

You finally said it. You will not abide by laws you selectively disagree with. Thank you for your honesty. – Will


It’s called Civil Disobedience. It really shouldn’t surprise you that I support that. It’s a long standing tradition in this country. One that reduced the deaths in Vietnam and led to the end of the draft. There is also something called the Loyal Opposition. Or, as this guy said,

"My country, right or wrong." In one sense I say so too. My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
It's funny that you have said so much about acting like a dictatorship because doing whatever your country says regardless of the morality of it, that's exactly what dictators demand.
It will be worse if Trump is removed for a vendetta.
You still have not explained what this is about. You've acknowledged all the evidence, but you keep saying this, as if the evidence is not more important.
68

Way to cherry pick the hell out of a quote there. He said nothing of the sort. What he did, in fact, was to express objection to other people not abiding by the law. You will apparently place fault for wrongdoing you don’t have a problem with squarely on the shoulders of those who do have a problem with it.

Your “thanking him for his honesty” was an inherently dishonest thing to say.

69

Will, As I said before, I hate what T rump has done and is doing to my country. I hate that he is threatening our very democracy by breaking laws, himself, and getting away with it.

You don’t recognize that he is breaking laws willy nilly. But have you not, at least, noticed that he has blown away all traditional ethical controls on a POTUS to pursue whatever poor decision he wants to make at any given moment. Did you not notice what evil his administration has committed in regards to taking children from families of asylum seekers? Did you not notice that he betrayed our allies, the Kurds, just recently and showed the world that the USA is as trustworthy as T rump himself? Did you not notice that he is gutting agencies of regular everyday Americans and calling them “the Deep State”, and if he replaces them it is only with persons who will be absolutely loyal to him – not loyal to the USA – loyal to him. Do you not notice his perpetual lying? (I could go on.) I don’t want him to destroy my country. Hating all that is not a vendetta. It is a natural emotional response, and it is a patriotic response.

You say that “the investigation of Trump must be non biased, and the final outcome should be based on facts…” Yes! it SHOULD be. But the only facts T rump accepts are his own “alternative facts”. He obstructs and stonewalls and denies and lies about any discovery and presentation of any actual facts that he doesn’t like.

You do, at least, recognize that he MAY be guilty and that he will probably get away with it.

What then? Lie back and think of England?

70

You said that your gut tells you that there is something mentally off about T rump. He is seriously thought by many to have a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. IOW he cares about himself above all - not the nation, not the people, not even his own followers (except to the extent that they boost his ego). We cannot afford to have him in office any longer. Some have speculated that he may also be in early stages of some sort of Dementia (possibly age related.) He often says goofier things than I do. (And I am usually trying to be goofy)

71

What do we have here? A transcript of testimony. Does that count as “open”?

72

I think that each of the recent witnesses have had opening statements published. Do they present that to the press, themselves, before going in to the hearing? Or are the opening statements released by the committee?

73

TimB,

I absolutely agree that Trump may be guilty. Yes, Trump did betray the Kurds. I agree with most of what you have said on this forum. I find many faults with Trump. I believe he is very unpresidential. I don’t like his mouth.

One of Trump ‘s biggest problems, in my opinion, is that being a businessman, not a politician, he is use to twisting arms to get what he wants. It has carried over to his presidency. He has no protocol whatsoever. He has failed to learn that being a president requires compromise, and the word is absolutely foreign to him.

TimB, I can go on and on about Trump’s faults. I do recognize that he has serious faults, but I also recognize that he was elected by the American people. To say that Trump’s style is a dictator is correct. He made billions being the dictator of his company. But to accuse Trump of dictatorship of this country is ridiculous. I have lived under dictatorship. This country is far from being a dictatorship (I will get a hundred emails from this site attacking me for this statement).

There is nothing I can say that will change the minds of anyone on this site. If I disagree, I get floods of emails. I came on this site to give a different perspective from a swing, independent voter. It will be independent voters like me that could determine if Trump is removed in 2020.

You seem to be a reasonable person. You listen, and then you make your point. You agree to disagree. But, it appears to me that there are those on this site that want only to hear one perspective. So, I will leave them in their bliss.

Thank you for your respect. There is no room for independents on this site. There is no use in beating a dead horse to death, so I will be leaving this forum shortly.

74

I would prefer that you stay, as it gives me an opportunity to address points that would not otherwise come up very often.

Trump is not a Dictator yet. He is making strides toward it, however. He is taking all the power he can get and often abuses the power. He is breaking down all of the guardrails and traditions and ethics and institutions and checks and balances that have prevented the possibility of an authoritarian takeover. He has shown that he will break laws to get what he wants. If not removed from office by impeachment, he will doubtless continue to break any laws that he wants, BECAUSE HE CAN get away with it.

I would be interest in your experience living in a dictatorship. It seems to me that having done so, you would want to avoid having it happen again.

75

I think we have nothing but independents here. Also people who listen to reason and will keep discussing it to find whatever is behind an opinion.

76

TimB,

I was in the Philippines under Marcus in the late 60’s and again in late 70’s. Marcus was booted out in the mid 80’s, as I recall, still being praised and protected by Reagan.

His reign of terror, in contradiction to Wikipedia, actually began in the late 60’s. Dictatorship in the Philippines was in stages. (1) brutality (2) economic chaos (because foreign aid was diverted to his personal account) and soaring national debt (3) confiscation of guns (4) election fraud.

Takeover was done slowly to fool the electorate, and not necessarily in the order I prescribed. There were other intermediate stages I am certain, but I can tell you only what I saw and what I learned from locals who were brutalized. Also several of my friends married Philippine women, and they kept me informed to the last minute of the details, even when I returned to the states several times.

I lived downtown Angels City with the natives, so I was privileged to see more than most military personnel. I cannot remember every detail, but I can remember Marcus’s minions going house to house confiscating guns. When some refused to turn them over, a law was passed to make anyone caught with a gun a criminal. So those who defended their families during a crime, got just as harsh a sentence as the criminal who broke in their house. Both were declared criminals.

So much for the right wing conservatives who say “ they will get my guns when they pry it from my cold dead fingers”. I laugh at these people. Once you lose your gun rights, you concede or become a criminal yourself. Everyone will turn over their guns when their government says so or, they will go to jail.

I can remember Philippine Police, or maybe it was soldiers, standing guard in the voting booths. Of course, they were there to insure there was no election fraud. My house maid (Philippino) told me if you voted wrong, his minions paid you a visit within days, and people just disappeared, never to be seen again.

Getting control of the elections is mandatory for dictators. Often times, according to native testimony to me, people were arrested, put in jail without habeous corpus, again never to be seen. It was always amazing that Marcus would win by 90% or more votes. One would think the people really loved him.

The demonstrations actually started in the late 60s only to escalate into mass (tens and hundreds of thousands) in the streets, in the mid 80’s, not only Manila, but in numerous cities. Many had hoes, rakes, and shovels as they marched, because they had no weapons.

In frustration, in the end, unable to maintain control, Marcus declared martial law (of course ratified by a large percentage of citizens), and, of course, the citizens voted for martial law to restrain themselves.

In the very very end, in his frustration, it became the death penalty to own a single round of ammo. Marcus was elected legally to begin with, and slowly usurped power. Legislators who disagreed with Marcus were shot down like dogs. I can remember that during one election, in Balibago, there were 104 candidates running for local office, 52 were killed. Of course, it was a coincident that they were anti Marcus.

The people had no recourse but to retaliate, because Marcus refused to give them a means to communicate thru representation. The country was raped monetarily, corruption was rampant, fear and despair were everywhere, and almost to the very end, the US backed Marcus. The brutality was indescribable.

 

77

Thanks for that William. Hopefully we are smarter than that here. In grade school, when we learned about Hitler, they really drilled into our heads that we needed to know this story so it wouldn’t happen again. I’ve been to the Tolerance Museum in LA which also covers the issues of how a democracy can turn in to a dictatorship.

78

Thanks that is very interesting.

Of the 4 stages that you identified:

  1. T rump is not particularly brutal (well except separating young children from their parents and abandoning the Kurds to be ethnically cleansed from part of Syria).

  2. And we are avoiding economic chaos for now, though we do see signs of his using the office to enrich himself and his family, and our national debt is at a record high.

  3. Our guns are not likely to be confiscated, though Beto O’Rourke wants a forced buy back of assault rifles. (But he’s not going to win the Dem nomination anyway.)

  4. T rump is definitely working hard on manipulating our Presidential election by dirty means. But not yet to the degree that you heard about from your maid.

But T rump does seem to particularly admire the autocrats of the world.

Thanks again for relating your experience.

 

79

I think we all must remember a very important point. Right wing conservatives are always stating how gun ownership is important to prevent government takeover. I say that election fraud is even a greater threat to democracy.

We must keep our elections free from fraud… I often wonder about electronic voting being secure. I do not know enough about it to comment, but according to the news media, the Russians are tinkering with the process. Does this mean they are trying to influence elections, or does it mean they are trying to hack elections?

80

Idk. I worry about that too.