Al Aqsa Under Attack
https://twitter.com/hashtag/AlAqsaUnderAttack?src=hashtag_click
Any other country in the region did that and you would hear talk of intervention. Israel is our “ally” though.
I don’t like defending Israel, and in fact I don’t. I also don’t like counting bodies as a means to determine who is worse. Some Palestinian group fired rockets at Israel. Israel spends a lot of money to be able to shoot them down, and provide early warning, and shelters for its people, so they suffer little damage, except to the costs and psychic price of living that way.
Now, really, most important, Israel could quit trying to take land from Palestine. They could give some back and they would still be just as powerful as they are now. So I think they are most to blame for the continued fighting. But both sides have people who believe they are justified in their killing because someone at some point killed someone on their side.
Hamas can’t fight in a traditional manner because they would get creamed. They launch from hidden locations surrounded by civilians, and when Israel bombs those places, children are killed. Both sides include this as part of their calculations. Intervention would not accomplish much.
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I don’t like defending Israel, and in fact I don’t. I also don’t like counting bodies as a means to determine who is worse. Some Palestinian group fired rockets at Israel. Israel spends a lot of money to be able to shoot them down, and provide early warning, and shelters for its people, so they suffer little damage, except to the costs and psychic price of living that way.Now, really, most important, Israel could quit trying to take land from Palestine. They could give some back and they would still be just as powerful as they are now. So I think they are most to blame for the continued fighting. But both sides have people who believe they are justified in their killing because someone at some point killed someone on their side.
Hamas can’t fight in a traditional manner because they would get creamed. They launch from hidden locations surrounded by civilians, and when Israel bombs those places, children are killed. Both sides include this as part of their calculations. Intervention would not accomplish much.
@lausten I too have trouble sorting out the good guys from the bad guys in this one. There are plenty of "Yeah, but…"s on both sides.
If I were to boil it down to a simplistic answer, I would say the Israeli’s need to stop taking land, and give back what they took.
I’ve never known who’s the good guys or the bad guys in this ongoing war. I have a friend who is Jewish and she gives a convincing argument that Israel is right and the Palestinians are the bad guys, but those who support the Palestinians also give a good argument that Israel is the bad guy. They are both pointing fingers and that doesn’t look good. In my mind, that makes both sides wrong, just like two squabbling children, but I have nothing to back up that observation/assertion, so I try to just stay out of the whole thing.
Sometimes I wax metaphoric and think there’s actually a purpose behind the conflict in Jerusalem. It’s a shining example of what organized religion is all about. Utter hypocrisy, hate, and selfishness in the guise of peace, love, and understanding. I imagine Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad coming back, taking a look at the situation, and condemning all sides. Short of that, for people on the fence about religion, it’s a perfect example of what not to believe in. So the suffering and death are horrible of course, but maybe they have some meaning in the long run - they show the true face of religion and help to bring about its eventual demise. And when that happens, M, J, and M will return, smoke a doobie, and walk off into the sunset with a skip in their steps.
There aren’t any objectively good guys or bad guys here. While that’s how it is in every war, this is a purely tribal conflict. You either support a Jewish state in the ancestral land of the Jews or you support the Palestinians whose ancestral land is now occupied by Israel. No middle ground. None of the solutions so far are workable.
From a practical point of view the Jews have less justification because they left thousands of years ago whereas the Palestinians have stayed put. Most Jews are also less pure ethnically/racially since they have mixed with other groups wherever they moved so that muddies the waters regarding their ancestral claims to the land. A big pro-Israel argument is that Jews have been persecuted everywhere they’ve ever lived so they have a moral right to return – but that is darkly funny as the middle east is extremely tribal and everybody persecutes everyone there.
Since Israel was created by America and Britain in order to have a proxy Western state in the region, we now persecute those that persecute the Jews, and this is why middle easterners hate us.
I don’t support either because I don’t know which one has been harmed to warrant any of this destruction and murder. Of course, IMHO, war is never warranted or justified, so there is no one to support in this mess.
I don’t think Jews were ever “pure”. I think they have always been mixed up ethnically, clear back to the time (and before) the story of Moses was written. IMHO, there is no reason to persecute anyone, but when it comes to war, it takes at least two tango, but just one has to offer peace and one to accept the offer. I still agree with Gene Roddenberry that was are still growing up and fighting each other like children, but when we grow up, as a species, we may learn to get along with each other.
I don’t support either because I don’t know which one has been harmed to warrant any of this destruction and murder. Of course, IMHO, war is never warranted or justified, so there is no one to support in this mess.Right. The best move is staying out if you have no connection to either side. Too late for America unfortunately.
I don’t think Jews were ever “pure”. I think they have always been mixed up ethnically, clear back to the time (and before) the story of Moses was written. IMHO, there is no reason to persecute anyone, but when it comes to war, it takes at least two tango, but just one has to offer peace and one to accept the offer. I still agree with Gene Roddenberry that was are still growing up and fighting each other like children, but when we grow up, as a species, we may learn to get along with each other.Ancient Jews were likely mixed with other Levantine peoples but modern Jews are mixed with peoples originating far from the Levant.
Ancient Jews were likely mixed with other Levantine peoples but modern Jews are mixed with peoples originating far from the Levant.
Pretty much. If Jesus ever existed, he wasn’t straight blonde hair and blue eyed, but rather he looked more Middle Eastern or like someone from Egypt (dark curly hair, dark complected, and brown eyes). Who he was probably wasn’t exactly as described in the Bible. Paul never met the man. He was far from being as people describe him today, not to mention, that man never existed for sure. I suspect the same goes for Moses, if he ever existed. I suspect the Moses, in the text, never existed anymore than Jesus did and definitely never existed as people today think he did. And Muhammad… if he ever existed, he didn’t exist as people believed he did. What is written is human created and no more real than George Washington and the Cherry tree or even Topsy in Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Any and all of those men could have existed, but not in the way the stories made them out to be and they definitely never existed as people believe. If the men ever existed, the stories might be as true as the stories of Buddha or as true as the Cherry Tree or as true as Tom Sawyer. There’s no historical or geographical accuracy in any of the religious texts, which blows the biographical accuracy too.
This is my problem though- those who believe in “the End Times” and Jesus (or their chosen prophet) will return and the way to do it is have a war in the Middle East. The thing is, I’ve also heard Jesus won’t return until there is peace in the Middle East. Which is it? IMHO, the idea of war, in an effort to force a dead man, who may or may not have existed, is disturbing. War won’t bring anyone back. It will only kill more people. Resurrections, descentions, and accentions only happen in literature. Miraculous births, dying and rising gods who descend from the sky only happen in stories. The problem is, while the majority of people outgrow their belief in Santa, they don’t grow up and disbelieve in a deity. They want that deity or prophet or messiah to fly through the sky and take them to a fantasy home, as said deity, prophet, or messiah kill all the people who don’t follow the belief of those going to a fantasy home.
Let’s back to history and i sum up.
I just insist that i don’t ask for the destruction of Israel, but reminding us of some basic facts.
The land is important from a religious and historical point of view for Jews, for Christians, and for Muslims.
Since the middle of the 19th century, Jewish claim their historical rights to return to Israel and to create a state. That’s as serious as if Italy claimed a right to restore the roman empire, or if UK claimed USA as a colony, but ideology has its strength.
During WWII Jewish European people were victims of a genocide. This genocide was implemented by Nazis and they got help in many countries, even if in some others or the same ones, other people protected the Jews. USA let do.
In 1947, The winners of the wars conceded the creation of Israel. This creation was a bit injustice to the Palestinian living there. A war ensued and they lost it. Many had to leave and went to Lebanon or other countries.
The Arabs states lost the 1967 war and Israel annexed part of Jordan. Israel began to colonize these lands, to create a net of colonies and a situation of irreversible fact. Colonization have sped up theses years, in Palestinian lands and in Jerusalem. This colonization means loss of land and means of living by Palestinian people.
Oslo agreements in 1993 opened a period of hope for peace despite strong opposition of parts of Israel and Palestinian opinions.
In 2000, Ariel Sharon conservative politician and retired general was candidate to the post of Prime minister. On 28 September 2000 escorted by 1000, he visited the Temple Mount complex, site of the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque, the holiest place in the world to Jews and the third holiest site in Islam. He declared hat the complex would remain under perpetual Israeli control. Violence ensued.
The Israel electorate choose Sharon 68/32 and, since, extremists in both camps have led.
In fact, Israel wants to create Eretz Israel the land of Israel as it was given to Jews by god in Biblical times. For many Israel voters, that’s not open to debate, it is a question of time and peace will come when it will have been implemented .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel
And now?
The only reasonable solution would be a binational state, with equal rights for every one in a secular state. This being impossible, a two state federation, and it means Israel colons give back land to Palestinian.
Any solution needs to include the millions of Palestinian living outside in camp and that Israel gives up the return law, according to which any Jew can come back to Israel and claim citizenship.
It is almost hopeless and it means that what is going on will go on.
But the question is no more a question of rights and wrongs, the question is how to find a reasonable solution. And this needs :
-that Palestinians give up the idea of destroying Israel and sending back the Jews
-That the Jews recognize that the creation of Israel was a big injustice for Palestinians, recognize the rights of Palestinians to live in the region, and give up the idea of Eretz Israel.
I am sad …
I would say them “Please, give peace a chance !”
Incidentally, some American ultra religious people support this project as, for them, it annonces the second coming of the Christ.
https://www.brandeis.edu/israel-center/news/newsletter-5-robins.html
Hello Morgan. You are missing a couple of important events.
The assassination of Rabin by israeli terrorist
The ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes
And UN resolution 242 which the whole world votes yes every year except for a few countries such as USA, ukraine and micronesia. Some others like Australia Uk abstain.
This resolution is the basis of the two state solution where Palestine will be Gaza and the west bank. Israel refuses to make this a reality and therefore there is no peace.
Asalam Alaykum
So what are the chances this would turn into a US-Iran proxy war?
- and I don’t mean that in a trolling-rhetorical way
War low or high intensity level has been constant since 1967.
And Israel and Palestinians are not proxy.
In fact , Israel is very independent and, at times, imposes its politics to USA.
Palestinian populations don’t give a dam about Iran, they react.
Nobody had seen the coming of the present events and was ready, neither Israel, neither Palestinian authorities, neither Hamas.
Morgan in my culture, it is of the highest rudeness to ignore someone when spoken to especially when an exchange is offered.
why do you say no one saw this coming after the Palestinians have been occupied for 70+ years with families kicked out of their homes by colonialist settlers and their IDF stooges while Gaza remains an open air prison camp??
thank you
Excuse me, @sabolina
You are right when you say that i did not mention many events, among them the ones you cite.
I did not because i wanted to make a short post and concentrate upon the causes of the present situation. And when I spoke of colonisation, i included every thing which goes with it.
And you are right, given the situation, nobody should have been surprised and every one was, specially about the revolt of Arabs Israelis.
This latest flare up basically started after the Israeli police attacked Al Asqa?
Was there anything before that, that didn’t make headlines, that may have been a provocation? Any reason for the police to attack?
If i have understood, the immediate reason was the project of Israelis to expulse Arabs families from theirs homes in Jerusalem east. 70 families are threatened.
And in the present time, you get the end of Ramadan with its celebration and a Jewish feast,among other facts. For instance, the Israeli police has restricted access to Al-Aqsa, the third holy place of Islam.
If i have understood, the immediate reason was the project of Israelis to expulse Arabs families from theirs homes in Jerusalem east. 70 families are threatened.And in the present time, you get the end of Ramadan with its celebration and a Jewish feast,among other facts. For instance, the Israeli police has restricted access to Al-Aqsa, the third holy place of Islam.
Thanks - So there was more going on.
Did they restrict access before or after Monday? Because I thought the Palestinians were already there and it was at the end of a service that the violence started (aside from the expulsions elsewhere)