Then its not scientific to ask about that HERE.
Offer:
Its well known fact that bodies in concentration death camps were cremated.
Citizenschallenge-v.3:
What about these?Why don't you tell me Citizenschallenge-v.3? #52 - The MAXIMUM number of the 18 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__. #53 - The MAXIMUM number of the 18 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 21 people; is no less than __?__. #54 - It is known - via a preponderance of scientific evidence - that; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 18 claimed / alleged / insinuated extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. - currently contains the remains of no less than __?__ people.![]()
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“prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology”
I’m not answering these questions because you haven’t shown me that you know what these words mean. Any answer I would give you would be met with some nonsense about how my answer didn’t fit your standards. What you have given us is a picture of a grave that does not meet your own standards. You have shown no methodology. You linked to a website that is not bona fide and does not meet a standard of proof equilavent to the US courts. You are acting like a playground bully while talking to adults.
Is this the largest mass grave ever proven to exist at BELZEC, CHELMNO, PONARY, SOBIBOR or TREBLINKA II?It appears to be the largest mass grave from the particular camps listed that is still in existence today. The commonly accepted historical theory is mass graves holding thousands of corpses existed during the war, but the bodies werecremated] in order to destroy evidence of genocide.I'm looking for help locating the sceintificl proof that there is a larger mass grave (one that contains the remains of at least 7 people) at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor or Treblinka II, than the one shown above. (Which was excavated at Sobibor.) Thanks in advance.
Citizenschallenge-v.3:I'm not the one pretending to know. I was pointing out images of other mass graves for the area. Beyond that my pal Beltane sums it up - some of the links I offered above go into more detail about the bones and conditions in those graves. Nice neat pristine graves like the one you found are not the norm anyways. Oh and still trying to figure out what this has to with science, but you avoid Lausten's questions, so we have yet another mystery.What about these?Why don't you tell me Citizenschallenge-v.3![]()
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"prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology" I'm not answering these questions because you haven't shown me that you know what these words mean. Any answer I would give you would be met with some nonsense about how my answer didn't fit your standards. What you have given us is a picture of a grave that does not meet your own standards. You have shown no methodology. You linked to a website that is not bona fide and does not meet a standard of proof equilavent to the US courts. You are acting like a playground bully while talking to adults.#45 - It is known - via a preponderance of scientific evidence - that; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. - currently contains the remains of no less than __?__ people. #48 - It is known - via a preponderance of scientific evidence - that; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. - currently contains the remains of no less than __?__ people. #51 - It is known - via a preponderance of scientific evidence - that; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 7 claimed / alleged / insinuated extant graves of Ponary identified by The N.A.F.H. - currently contains the remains of no less than __?__ people. #54 - It is known - via a preponderance of scientific evidence - that; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 20 claimed / alleged / insinuated extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. - currently contains the remains of no less than __?__ people. #57 - It is known - via a preponderance of scientific evidence - that; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. - currently contains the remains of no less than __?__ people.
Beltane:
The commonly accepted historical theory is mass graves holding thousands of corpses existed during the war, but the bodies werecremated] in order to destroy evidence of genocide.Ah yes, the "magically disappearing jew theory."
Remember - the original big-lie - was the wizardly sand “obliterated" the illusory “huge mass graves" and thus made the fraudulently alleged millions of pounds of bones and teeth - “magically" - disappear. However - forensic historians exposed the true-believers delusional “magically disappearing jew theory" so new more “believable" cognitive illusions had to be fabricated to augment the old nonsensical big-lies. http://nafcash.com/And it's not "thousands" Beltane, it's over 2.1 million. And that's just the alleged jews. There are tens of thousands of non-jews alleged to be buried in the "huge mass graves" as well.
To make things easier, I’ll think I’ll just focus on Sobibor from now on.
Is this the largest mass grave (in terms of quantity of remains) ever proven to exist at Sobibor
Yes or no?
Note: There are “20 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H.”
* * * * The first 16 of the 20 so-called “huge mass graves" of Sobibor (#1/56 though #16/71 of the alleged 90) are shown in the map on page 7 in this link here:And the last 4 so-called “huge mass graves" of Sobibor (#17/72 though #20/75 of the alleged 90) are shown and numbered in the map on page 5 in this link here:
(Contact The N.A.F.H. for its grave numbering system for this camp.) http://nafcash.com/
Beltane:The commonly accepted historical theory is mass graves holding thousands of corpses existed during the war, but the bodies were cremated in order to destroy evidence of genocide.They don't look cremated to me:BTW, The N.A.F.H. even admits that 4 of the 20 so-called “huge mass graves" of Sobibor have actually been located / proven to exist and to conclusively contain human remains. #52 - The MAXIMUM number of the 20 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__. #53 - The MAXIMUM number of the 20 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 21 people; is no less than __?__. #54 - It is known - via a preponderance of scientific evidence - that; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 18 claimed / alleged / insinuated extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. - currently contains the remains of no less than __?__ people.
Here are photos of two more “huge mass graves” of Sobibor:
So far, we have photos of 4 of the 20 “huge mass graves” containing a total of 9 skeletons.
So we have 16 more “huge mass graves” to look at to find one that contains the remains of over 7 people.
(So far the “huge mass graves” are averaging the remains of 2.25 people.)
#45 - It is known - via a preponderance of scientific evidence - that; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. - currently contains the remains of no less than ? people.
First, why would I answer this question only as it pertains to what NAFH identified? Wouldn’t you want to know of all archaeological evidence? What I found could not answer it in terms of an exact number of people. The graves contain many meters of cremated human remains. Estimates are in the hundreds of thousands. But you already know that I assume.
The graves contain many meters of cremated human remains. Estimates are in the hundreds of thousands.Actually, for Sobibor, it's over 250 thousand jews alone. Be that as it may, how many meters of cremated human remains do you see in these two graves:
Note: There is not a single bit of empirical evidence - nor any conclusive evidence of any kind - that so-much-as one single pound of human cremains currently exists - or ever existed - within any of the 90 so-called “huge mass graves" - NOT ONE! ... WHAT PHYSICAL EVIDENCE? - Shermer is intentionally ignoring the inconvenient fact that, over the years, there have been no less than five claimed so-called “crime scene investigations" of Treblinka II, and a number of claimed investigations at the other four sites as well - yet to date, it can still be categorically stated that; archaeologists / forensic investigators cannot prove the existence of even one mass grave at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor or Treblinka II that contains so-much-as - 1 / 1,000 of 1% - of the alleged buried remains - NOT ONE! ... Also note: For those weak-willed true-believers who lack the intelligence, courage, integrity and character to accept - The C.S.I. Challenge; The N.A.F.H. also offers - a monetary reward for simply identifying / proving any untrue statement of fact found on this webpage. http://www.nafcash.com/
The graves contain many meters of cremated human remains. Estimates are in the hundreds of thousands.Actually, for Sobibor, it's over 250 thousand jews alone. Be that as it may, how many meters of cremated human remains do you see in these two graves: I don't understand what point you are making. You can't be a real person because no one could be that stupid. Showing a picture of one thing does make other things not exist. You are violating a forum rule of constantly repeating your posts.
The graves contain many meters of cremated human remains. Estimates are in the hundreds of thousands.Actually, for Sobibor, it's over 250 thousand jews alone. Be that as it may, how many meters of cremated human remains do you see in these two graves: I don't understand what point you are making. You can't be a real person because no one could be that stupid. Showing a picture of one thing does make other things not exist. You are violating a forum rule of constantly repeating your posts. I'll take that ad hominem as meaning your answer is ZERO. We've looked at 20% of the 20 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H., and we've seen ZERO pounds of cremated remains and 9 skeletons. What do you think we'll find when we look at the other 16 "huge mass graves" Lausten? It's time I contacted The National Association of Forensic Historians to get its grave numbering system for Sobibor. Talk to you again in the morrow Lausten.
We've looked at 20% of the 20 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H., and we've seen ZERO pounds of cremated remains and 9 skeletons.Why do you think you should find cremated bones together with pristine skeletons? There were many killings - who say's your picture is even a camp victims, a fair number never made it to the camps and were buried enroute. You have provided not one shred of evidence to tell us the story behind that particular grave. Worst you don't think you are under any obligation to do so. People are simply supposed to believe your opinion if we can't answer you're contrived question. That's not science, that is pseudoscience! Oh and of course there is stuff like this that isn't too difficult to find.
Holocaust Denial On Trial https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/or10-graves-sobibor/ How do we know the size of the extermination area in the death camp of Sobibor was large enough to contain the mass graves? Holocaust deniers claim: The size of the extermination area of the Operation Reinhard death camp of Sobibor is too small to have accommodated the number of bodies of the alleged victims. The facts are: Modern forensic and archeological investigations at Sobibor show that there are at least 7 mass graves in the camp, the size and volume of which are more than sufficient to accommodate the number of victims. Holocaust deniers claim that it is not possible that the Germans could have “buried roughly the equivalent to the stadium spectators of the Rose Bowl game" (about 80,000 people) in the Sobibor death camp in a mass grave only a little larger than “a henhouse."[1] For example, the self-named “Denierbud," an American Holocaust denier video maker, claims that Karl Frenzel, an SS guard in Sobibor, was convicted partly based on flimsy evidence about this impossibly tiny grave. Denierbud makes the same faulty assumptions as he did for the graves in the death camps of Belzec and Treblinka. Denierbud’s calculations about the size and volume of the mass graves at Sobibor are based on the same faulty assumptions as those he cobbled together for Belzec and Treblinka. First, the area he calculates that would be required for each body is not representative of the average size or mass of the victim in these camps. Second, he makes assumptions about the way the remains would have been thrown into the graves in a way that actually wastes the space that was available. Finally, he uses a map that is not scaled as to the size or distance between objects shown on it. Therefore, they cannot be used as Denierbud does to draw conclusions about size and space. The evidence about the extermination area and the mass graves in the death camp of Sobibor. Karl Bolender, an SS guard at Sobibor, recalled: “The Jewish working brigade put the corpses into rectangularly boarded trolleys and drove them to the mass grave. A mass grave may have been approx. 60 m long, 20 m wide and 6-7 m deep [about 197 feet long by 66 feet wide by 29 to 23 feet deep.] The side walls were sloped like an embankment to avoid the danger of collapse." In a later interrogation, Bolden spoke of a second pit: “. . . we put corpses in this second pit even before its completion. Above the first pit a layer of sand was spread. After this pit was completely full, the other corpses had to be put somewhere, even though we were not yet finished with the new pit."[2] Bolender’s recollection is in accord with preliminary excavations on the grounds of Sobibor in 2001 conducted by Andrzej Kola, who found seven mass graves, the largest grave of which was 64 meters by 23 feet by 4.5 meters deep (210 feet by 75 feet by 15 feet deep.) The others measured 18 meters by 23 meters by 4.5 meters deep (60 feet by 75 feet by 15 feet deep.)[3] Ben-Gurion University conducted a thorough archeological study of Sobibor in 2001, 2007 and 2008. They have confirmed the existence of at least seven mass graves. The graves are of varying sizes and they found them to be “heavily mixed with ashes and burnt materials and artifacts."[4] In fact, even today the area around the memorial shows distinct traces of darker green grass indicating the areas of the mass graves. The locations of the seven mass graves can be seen even better from the air. When Isaac Gilead, Yoram Haimi and Wojciech Mazurek carried out investigations on the Sobibor site, they included in their report aerial photos taken of the camp site showing the clearing around the ash memorial and several deeper green areas indicating the mass graves.[5] Conclusion Denierbud’s claim that the only mass grave in the death camp of Sobibor was a little larger than a “hen house" is false. He employs the same faulty assumptions he used when calculating the capacity of the mass graves in Belzec and Treblinka, arriving at an inflated volume needed for the mass graves, and then applying his overstated calculations on an unscaled map. There were at least seven mass graves in Sobibor and that was plenty of room in the extermination area for both the graves and the incineration grills.
The graves contain many meters of cremated human remains. Estimates are in the hundreds of thousands.Actually, for Sobibor, it's over 250 thousand jews alone. Be that as it may, how many meters of cremated human remains do you see in these two graves: I don't understand what point you are making. You can't be a real person because no one could be that stupid. Showing a picture of one thing does make other things not exist. You are violating a forum rule of constantly repeating your posts. I'll take that ad hominem as meaning your answer is ZERO. We've looked at 20% of the 20 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H., and we've seen ZERO pounds of cremated remains and 9 skeletons. Who is "we" and where are you looking. Because there are other people who have found hundreds of thousands of bodies worth of cremated remains. Do you realize the amount of evidence you need to overcome? Here's just one. http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/modern/archreview.html Tell me why it is wrong.
The Darkest Truths After the Nazis' three so-called Operation Reinhard camps swallowed more than a million and a half Jewish lives, the camps were themselves destroyed. Forensic archaeologists are finally exploring what lies beneath the earth—but not without resistance. ELIZABETH SVOBODA / 4 FEB 2016 https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/the-darkest-truths/
A Voice for the Dead Recovering the Lost History of Sobibór http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-archeological-excavations-that-led-to-the-gas-chambers-of-sobibor-a-993733.html Henchman with the Nazi SS sought to cover up the mass murder that occurred at the Sobibór concentration camp in eastern Poland. Archeologists recently uncovered the site's hidden gas chambers and important artifacts that shed light on the victims. By Claus Hecking ... In contrast to Auschwitz, Sobibór, Belzec and Treblinka were extermination camps from day one, with very few of the new arrivals used in forced labor. The vast majority were sent directly from the freight trains to their deaths in the gas chambers using a cruelly elaborate logistical system. An estimate 1.4 million Jews from Poland, the Netherlands, Germany and other countries perished in the three camps, more than in Auschwitz-Birkenau, the concentration camp that became the symbol of industrialized mass murder. And unlike Auschwitz, no barracks or mountains of glasses, shoes and human hair or visible remains of extermination facilities were left behind in Operation Reinhardt. In the middle of the war, the Nazi criminals made a point of eliminating any traces of their own after they had killed the Jews. Between November 1942 and December 1943, the Nazis exhumed bodes, killed almost all of the remaining prisoners at the three camps and burned any of the human remains still detectable. The killers destroyed plans, documents and stripped the buildings down to their foundations, even carrying the rubble away. They leveled structures, planted forests and established farms. Operation Reinhardt was top-secret and it was meant to be the perfect crime. ... ... ... An Open Field of Bodies A few dozen steps away from the excavations, the archeologists kneels down to the ground and lifts small white fragments filled with holes. "These are all bone fragments -- there was a crematorium here," he says. "When they are entirely white, it shows the fire was especially hot." Even today, Sobibór remains an open field of bodies. ...In other words, this image you've built your obsession on probably weren't even camp victims. Those were extermination camps, bodies destroyed then remains buried, no one got buried whole, it appears from what other more serious individuals have reported on it.
We've looked at 20% of the 20 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H., and we've seen ZERO pounds of cremated remains and 9 skeletons.Who is "we" and where are you looking. Because there are other people who have found hundreds of thousands of bodies worth of cremated remains. Do you realize the amount of evidence you need to overcome? Here's just one. http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/modern/archreview.html Tell me why it is wrong. Good question and it should be the simplest to answer. Denzel, who is "WE" - provide some details. When were "We over there" Where is your data (no not claims, your supporting data that you build your claims on). THAT WOULD BE THE SCIENTIFIC WAY.
Beltane:OK then -- over 2.1 million. The facts seem to be that the bodies were eliminated in mass cremations and the ashes were supposedly disposed of in graves or scattering them around Poland and Belarus (relatively close to the killing grounds). Other graves may have yet to be found, as there is some plausible evidence] of their existence. We'll have to see what turns up, I guess.The commonly accepted historical theory is mass graves holding thousands of corpses existed during the war, but the bodies werecremated] in order to destroy evidence of genocide.Ah yes, the "magically disappearing jew theory."Remember - the original big-lie - was the wizardly sand “obliterated" the illusory “huge mass graves" and thus made the fraudulently alleged millions of pounds of bones and teeth - “magically" - disappear. However - forensic historians exposed the true-believers delusional “magically disappearing jew theory" so new more “believable" cognitive illusions had to be fabricated to augment the old nonsensical big-lies. http://nafcash.com/And it's not "thousands" Beltane, it's over 2.1 million. And that's just the alleged jews. There are tens of thousands of non-jews alleged to be buried in the "huge mass graves" as well.