Gun culture

Just found this site in the news. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States,_July_2015 Of the 20 people killed by police so far this month, only five had guns.
I'll bet that in all 20 cases, the cop(s) said he "thought" the victim was reaching for a gun and the cop "thought" his life was in danger. Nobody can prove that he didn't think it. Cops know they always have this ace in the hole and they'll use it whenever they need it. And it works! Lois Wrong. If you had clicked the link and read wikipedia entry you would have known
Wheat was causing a disturbance and made suicidal threats at an apartment complex near Colorado State University at 4 am, prompting police calls. Wheat then stabbed and injured a woman in the arm. As officers approached him, Wheat allegedly advanced towards them with the knife and was shot.
Just one example.
Just found this site in the news. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States,_July_2015 Of the 20 people killed by police so far this month, only five had guns.
I'll bet that in all 20 cases, the cop(s) said he "thought" the victim was reaching for a gun and the cop "thought" his life was in danger. Nobody can prove that he didn't think it. Cops know they always have this ace in the hole and they'll use it whenever they need it. And it works! Lois Wrong. If you had clicked the link and read wikipedia entry you would have known
Wheat was causing a disturbance and made suicidal threats at an apartment complex near Colorado State University at 4 am, prompting police calls. Wheat then stabbed and injured a woman in the arm. As officers approached him, Wheat allegedly advanced towards them with the knife and was shot.
Just one example. Ok, I should have said "weapon". It doesn't change a thing. "I'll bet that in all 20 cases, the cop(s) said he "thought" the victim was reaching for a weapon and the cop "thought" his life was in danger. Nobody can prove that he didn't think it. Cops know they always have this ace in the hole and they'll use it whenever they need it. And it works!" The victim is just as dead and the cop gets off scot free. Lois

Meaningful solution suggestions:

  1. require body cams on all police and for the cams to be turned on in all interactions with the public
  2. require all police to have a college degree
  3. pay police more because they all have a college degree
  4. require all law enforcement agencies to accurately report any interactions with the public that result in injury or death to a national database, along with the body cam video of that interaction
  5. end all local practices of requiring police to make quotas so as to increase income for that locality
  6. make any police officer who falsely supports an offending police officer’s story, equally liable as an accessory to the offense
  7. inform all police officers and the general public of the reality that law enforcement is not even in the top 10 of deadliest occupations in the US
    Those are just off the top of my head.
Meaningful solution suggestions: 1) require body cams on all police and for the cams to be turned on in all interactions with the public 2) require all police to have a college degree 3) pay police more because they all have a college degree 4) require all law enforcement agencies to accurately report any interactions with the public that result in injury or death to a national database, along with the body cam video of that interaction 5) end all local practices of requiring police to make quotas so as to increase income for that locality 6) make any police officer who falsely supports an offending police officer's story, equally liable as an accessory to the offense 7) inform all police officers and the general public of the reality that law enforcement is not even in the top 10 of deadliest occupations in the US Those are just off the top of my head.
Decent ideas but most probably would never be passed. Bodycams are required in some jurisdictions, but they often seem to suddenly have stopped working when a cop has been accused of doing something wrong. Funny how that happens. Republicans would stop any effort to pay cops more. Taxes might go up. LL
Ok, I should have said "weapon". It doesn't change a thing.
You're correct that it wouldn't change anything, but your reasoning in still flawed. If you take the time to read the wikipedia entry you'll see that some of the people killed by police were endangering or even assaulting others and/or charged the police after being told to stand down. I'm pissed at the number of police killings in this country and especially at my family members who unthinkingly repeat the meme "If you don't want to get shot by the police don't do anything wrong," but many police killing are justified. And this statement is ridiculous, "I’ll bet that in all 20 cases, the cop(s) said he “thought" the victim was reaching for a weapon and the cop “thought" his life was in danger. Nobody can prove that he didn’t think it." You should know as well as anyone on these forums that one cannot prove a negative. Invoking a logical fallacy doesn't help make your point.
Meaningful solution suggestions: 1) require body cams on all police and for the cams to be turned on in all interactions with the public 2) require all police to have a college degree 3) pay police more because they all have a college degree 4) require all law enforcement agencies to accurately report any interactions with the public that result in injury or death to a national database, along with the body cam video of that interaction 5) end all local practices of requiring police to make quotas so as to increase income for that locality 6) make any police officer who falsely supports an offending police officer's story, equally liable as an accessory to the offense 7) inform all police officers and the general public of the reality that law enforcement is not even in the top 10 of deadliest occupations in the US Those are just off the top of my head.
Really like your ideas. One more I would like to see. Make the law enforcement unable to unionize.
Just found this site in the news. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States,_July_2015 Of the 20 people killed by police so far this month, only five had guns.
I'll bet that in all 20 cases, the cop(s) said he "thought" the victim was reaching for a gun and the cop "thought" his life was in danger. Nobody can prove that he didn't think it. Cops know they always have this ace in the hole and they'll use it whenever they need it. And it works! Lois Wrong. If you had clicked the link and read wikipedia entry you would have known
Wheat was causing a disturbance and made suicidal threats at an apartment complex near Colorado State University at 4 am, prompting police calls. Wheat then stabbed and injured a woman in the arm. As officers approached him, Wheat allegedly advanced towards them with the knife and was shot.
Just one example. Ok, I should have said "weapon". It doesn't change a thing. "I'll bet that in all 20 cases, the cop(s) said he "thought" the victim was reaching for a weapon and the cop "thought" his life was in danger. Nobody can prove that he didn't think it. Cops know they always have this ace in the hole and they'll use it whenever they need it. And it works!" The victim is just as dead and the cop gets off scot free. LoisWhats wrong with that? The police were well within regs to kill Wheat.
Ok, I should have said "weapon". It doesn't change a thing.
You're correct that it wouldn't change anything, but your reasoning in still flawed. If you take the time to read the wikipedia entry you'll see that some of the people killed by police were endangering or even assaulting others and/or charged the police after being told to stand down. I'm pissed at the number of police killings in this country and especially at my family members who unthinkingly repeat the meme "If you don't want to get shot by the police don't do anything wrong," but many police killing are justified. And this statement is ridiculous, "I’ll bet that in all 20 cases, the cop(s) said he “thought" the victim was reaching for a weapon and the cop “thought" his life was in danger. Nobody can prove that he didn’t think it." You should know as well as anyone on these forums that one cannot prove a negative. Invoking a logical fallacy doesn't help make your point. I never said the prosecution would make that statement, but they are in the position of having to prove the shooting was unwarranted, however they do it. It's pretty hard to do if the cop claims self defense, which is why the defense is used so often by cops and one ofthe reasons we have so many killings by cops, I think most cops are doing a good job under dangerous circumstances, but I also think many are trigger happy. Videos help,. Many a cop claims self defense and the video shows otherwise. And they aren't supposed to shoot at anyone who is running away, but they do that, too. Cops need better training and there should be tighter restrictions on when they can shoot. Too many are gun happy. Lois
Meaningful solution suggestions: 1) require body cams on all police and for the cams to be turned on in all interactions with the public 2) require all police to have a college degree 3) pay police more because they all have a college degree 4) require all law enforcement agencies to accurately report any interactions with the public that result in injury or death to a national database, along with the body cam video of that interaction 5) end all local practices of requiring police to make quotas so as to increase income for that locality 6) make any police officer who falsely supports an offending police officer's story, equally liable as an accessory to the offense Those are just off the top of my head.
2) require all police to have a college degree
Will any degree do? Thats unrealistic because - 1) Having a degree doesn't equal integrity 2) Generally, people who have degrees aren't interested in police work
7) inform all police officers and the general public of the reality that law enforcement is not even in the top 10 of deadliest occupations in the US
No, but its one of the most miserable occupations.
Meaningful solution suggestions: 1) require body cams on all police and for the cams to be turned on in all interactions with the public 2) require all police to have a college degree 3) pay police more because they all have a college degree 4) require all law enforcement agencies to accurately report any interactions with the public that result in injury or death to a national database, along with the body cam video of that interaction 5) end all local practices of requiring police to make quotas so as to increase income for that locality 6) make any police officer who falsely supports an offending police officer's story, equally liable as an accessory to the offense Those are just off the top of my head.
2) require all police to have a college degree
Will any degree do? Thats unrealistic because - 1) Having a degree doesn't equal integrity 2) Generally, people who have degrees aren't interested in police work
7) inform all police officers and the general public of the reality that law enforcement is not even in the top 10 of deadliest occupations in the US
No, but its one of the most miserable occupations. (aside: POTUS is the most deadly of occupations. 9 of 44 have died in office. It seems like a pretty miserable occupation to me, too, but the pay and the perks are okay.) I am all for people in inherently miserable, but needed, occupations getting paid accordingly. So we pay cops more, not only for being competently educated, but also for doing a miserable job. If we pay enough, many, truly competent, people will be interested in police work, miserable or not. And we don't necessarily have to rule out everyone without a degree if some sort of valid, reliable equivalency testing can be devised. Re: police with degrees, I simply recall that there are much fewer problems like these done by cops with degrees. One would think a degree in a field related to law enforcement or social studies might be preferable, but it may just be as simple as weeding out those who can't think clearly enough not to do stupid things like kill people unnecessarily.
Just found this site in the news. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States,_July_2015 Of the 20 people killed by police so far this month, only five had guns.
I'll bet that in all 20 cases, the cop(s) said he "thought" the victim was reaching for a gun and the cop "thought" his life was in danger. Nobody can prove that he didn't think it. Cops know they always have this ace in the hole and they'll use it whenever they need it. And it works! Lois Wrong. If you had clicked the link and read wikipedia entry you would have known
Wheat was causing a disturbance and made suicidal threats at an apartment complex near Colorado State University at 4 am, prompting police calls. Wheat then stabbed and injured a woman in the arm. As officers approached him, Wheat allegedly advanced towards them with the knife and was shot.
Just one example. Ok, I should have said "weapon". It doesn't change a thing. "I'll bet that in all 20 cases, the cop(s) said he "thought" the victim was reaching for a weapon and the cop "thought" his life was in danger. Nobody can prove that he didn't think it. Cops know they always have this ace in the hole and they'll use it whenever they need it. And it works!" The victim is just as dead and the cop gets off scot free. LoisWhats wrong with that? The police were well within regs to kill Wheat. I wasn't talking about any particular case. i was speaking generally. Lois
Meaningful solution suggestions: 1) require body cams on all police and for the cams to be turned on in all interactions with the public 2) require all police to have a college degree 3) pay police more because they all have a college degree 4) require all law enforcement agencies to accurately report any interactions with the public that result in injury or death to a national database, along with the body cam video of that interaction 5) end all local practices of requiring police to make quotas so as to increase income for that locality 6) make any police officer who falsely supports an offending police officer's story, equally liable as an accessory to the offense Those are just off the top of my head.
2) require all police to have a college degree
Will any degree do? Thats unrealistic because - 1) Having a degree doesn't equal integrity 2) Generally, people who have degrees aren't interested in police work
7) inform all police officers and the general public of the reality that law enforcement is not even in the top 10 of deadliest occupations in the US
No, but its one of the most miserable occupations. (aside: POTUS is the most deadly of occupations. 9 of 44 have died in office. It seems like a pretty miserable occupation to me, too, but the pay and the perks are okay.) Since a Supreme Court Judge can keep the position for life, of course most die in office, how could it be otherwise? Very few resign before dying since they don't have to.. I am all for people in inherently miserable, but needed, occupations getting paid accordingly. So we pay cops more, not only for being competently educated, but also for doing a miserable job. If we pay enough, many, truly competent, people will be interested in police work, miserable or not. And we don't necessarily have to rule out everyone without a degree if some sort of valid, reliable equivalency testing can be devised. Re: police with degrees, I simply recall that there are much fewer problems like these done by cops with degrees. One would think a degree in a field related to law enforcement or social studies might be preferable, but it may just be as simple as weeding out those who can't think clearly enough not to do stupid things like kill people unnecessarily. That's not it. The cops with degrees are not fighting street crime. LL
Meaningful solution suggestions: 1) require body cams on all police and for the cams to be turned on in all interactions with the public 2) require all police to have a college degree 3) pay police more because they all have a college degree 4) require all law enforcement agencies to accurately report any interactions with the public that result in injury or death to a national database, along with the body cam video of that interaction 5) end all local practices of requiring police to make quotas so as to increase income for that locality 6) make any police officer who falsely supports an offending police officer's story, equally liable as an accessory to the offense Those are just off the top of my head.
2) require all police to have a college degree
Will any degree do? Thats unrealistic because - 1) Having a degree doesn't equal integrity 2) Generally, people who have degrees aren't interested in police work
7) inform all police officers and the general public of the reality that law enforcement is not even in the top 10 of deadliest occupations in the US
No, but its one of the most miserable occupations. (aside: POTUS is the most deadly of occupations. 9 of 44 have died in office. It seems like a pretty miserable occupation to me, too, but the pay and the perks are okay.) Since a Supreme Court Judge can keep the position for life, of course most die in office, how could it be otherwise? Very few resign before dying since they don't have to.. I am all for people in inherently miserable, but needed, occupations getting paid accordingly. So we pay cops more, not only for being competently educated, but also for doing a miserable job. If we pay enough, many, truly competent, people will be interested in police work, miserable or not. And we don't necessarily have to rule out everyone without a degree if some sort of valid, reliable equivalency testing can be devised. Re: police with degrees, I simply recall that there are much fewer problems like these done by cops with degrees. One would think a degree in a field related to law enforcement or social studies might be preferable, but it may just be as simple as weeding out those who can't think clearly enough not to do stupid things like kill people unnecessarily. That's not it. The cops with degrees are not fighting street crime. LLIn your initial comment above, in red, I think you were thinking SCOTUS, in response to where I said POTUS. Re: your 2nd comment, in red, have you seen information that supports your hypothesis that cops with degrees are simply not put in positions to have direct interactions with the public that could go terribly wrong? If so, then perhaps it is not reasonable to require them to have degrees. But even so, I strongly suspect that smarter police are less likely to have things go wrong than not so smart police. Police in our country all carry guns, and are, in effect "licensed to kill". They can kill, justly or unjustly, and will not be held accountable for the "unjustly" kills, as long as they claim that they were in fear for their life or someone else's life, and there is no obvious evidence to the contrary. A cop with only borderline intellectual functioning would still be able to follow that simple rule, i.e., to say "I shot because I was in fear for my life." But a cop with such a low IQ, I think would also, be more likely to confront people for no good reason, and to interact with people in such a way that it leads to problematic circumstances, and to then wind up killing someone, and then be left to claim (what all police must claim when they kill someone) that they did so because they were if fear for their own life or someone else's.
Re: police with degrees, I simply recall that there are much fewer problems like these done by cops with degrees. One would think a degree in a field related to law enforcement or social studies might be preferable, but it may just be as simple as weeding out those who can't think clearly enough not to do stupid things like kill people unnecessarily.
According to this data:
According to a recent University of Michigan Study conducted by Dr. William Terrill, they find that officers with college education in fact resort to use of force less than that of the non-college educated officer. “The study found no difference with respect to officer education when it came to arrests or searches of suspects. But it found that in encounters with crime suspects, officers with some college education or a four-year degree resorted to using force 56 percent of the time, while officers with no college education used force 68 percent of the time. We found that a college education significantly reduces the likelihood of force occurring. The difference is real. It truly is because the officer was more educated, not because the suspect was more resistant."
http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/08/26/should-leos-have-a-college-degree/ So the cops without degrees used force 68% of the time, but cops with degrees used force only 56% of the time?! If I was a liberal, I'd say 56% of the time seems like an outrageously high incidence. Thats a lot of black bodies suffering. Requiring degrees for all cops doesn't seem like a worthwhile effort. Besides, at this point in time its laughable to think earning a degree means someone is good at "clear thinking".
Re: police with degrees, I simply recall that there are much fewer problems like these done by cops with degrees. One would think a degree in a field related to law enforcement or social studies might be preferable, but it may just be as simple as weeding out those who can't think clearly enough not to do stupid things like kill people unnecessarily.
According to this data:
According to a recent University of Michigan Study conducted by Dr. William Terrill, they find that officers with college education in fact resort to use of force less than that of the non-college educated officer. “The study found no difference with respect to officer education when it came to arrests or searches of suspects. But it found that in encounters with crime suspects, officers with some college education or a four-year degree resorted to using force 56 percent of the time, while officers with no college education used force 68 percent of the time. We found that a college education significantly reduces the likelihood of force occurring. The difference is real. It truly is because the officer was more educated, not because the suspect was more resistant."
http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/08/26/should-leos-have-a-college-degree/ So the cops without degrees used force 68% of the time, but cops with degrees used force only 56% of the time?! If I was a liberal, I'd say 56% of the time seems like an outrageously high incidence. Thats a lot of black bodies suffering. Requiring degrees for all cops doesn't seem like a worthwhile effort. Besides, at this point in time its laughable to think earning a degree means someone is good at "clear thinking". Perhaps you are right in suggesting that it should not be a college degree requirement, which weeds out the less intelligent, less clear thinking, and less rationally acting, from serving in law enforcement. But the very data that you cite, suggests that, if it were the requirement, there would be 12% less use of force. That is a lot, depending on how you look at it. Some use of force in law enforcement, by its very nature must be very rational. Is it completely rational 56% of the time that it now occurs? (My guess is no.) Perhaps the weeding out of the stupid and irresponsible, could be something like IQ tests and personality tests. And your elusion to liberals being concerned about "black bodies" (as if that were a bad thing) refers to the fact that, yes, when force is used it is disproportionally used when "black bodies" are involved. But it is also used unnecessarily with other bodies. Just a few days ago, in a city near mine, a middle aged white guy ran into a police station, yelling "My wife is trying to kill me." He was restrained, purportedly to calm him down. A witness to the event, said that one cop had his knee on the man's neck, and that at one point the man said "I can't breathe." (Word to the wise: if you are ever restrained by cops, don't say "I can't breathe." They must not like it, because obviously, in the moment that you say it, you have some breath.) Anyway, the guy died.

In the news.
A large body of psychological research on the ‘weapons effect’ may help explain the often violent interactions between police and the policed.

In the news. A large body of psychological research on the ‘weapons effect’ may help explain the often violent interactions between police and the policed. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/05/gun-police-public-more-aggressive-psychology-weapons-effect
Good article. Good point for this thread.
In the news. A large body of psychological research on the ‘weapons effect’ may help explain the often violent interactions between police and the policed. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/05/gun-police-public-more-aggressive-psychology-weapons-effect
The group of people who keep saying the answer to gun violence is to arm more people perhaps need to read this article. I am sure they would say it would "balance" the aggression or have a moderating affect or something though.
Gun culture is in the blood. If you are an American, and you're that scared of guns, maybe you should move to Europe.
If you're an American and not afraid of what guns in the hands of the public can do, maybe you should move to Hondurus, the country with the most gun related deaths in the world, per 100,000 population. You should fit right in there, considering your opinions on carrying guns and your lack of ability to think rationally. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Re: police with degrees, I simply recall that there are much fewer problems like these done by cops with degrees. One would think a degree in a field related to law enforcement or social studies might be preferable, but it may just be as simple as weeding out those who can't think clearly enough not to do stupid things like kill people unnecessarily.
According to this data:
According to a recent University of Michigan Study conducted by Dr. William Terrill, they find that officers with college education in fact resort to use of force less than that of the non-college educated officer. “The study found no difference with respect to officer education when it came to arrests or searches of suspects. But it found that in encounters with crime suspects, officers with some college education or a four-year degree resorted to using force 56 percent of the time, while officers with no college education used force 68 percent of the time. We found that a college education significantly reduces the likelihood of force occurring. The difference is real. It truly is because the officer was more educated, not because the suspect was more resistant."
http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/08/26/should-leos-have-a-college-degree/ So the cops without degrees used force 68% of the time, but cops with degrees used force only 56% of the time?! If I was a liberal, I'd say 56% of the time seems like an outrageously high incidence. Thats a lot of black bodies suffering. Requiring degrees for all cops doesn't seem like a worthwhile effort. Besides, at this point in time its laughable to think earning a degree means someone is good at "clear thinking". Perhaps you are right in suggesting that it should not be a college degree requirement, which weeds out the less intelligent, less clear thinking, and less rationally acting, from serving in law enforcement. But the very data that you cite, suggests that, if it were the requirement, there would be 12% less use of force. That is a lot, depending on how you look at it. Some use of force in law enforcement, by its very nature must be very rational. Is it completely rational 56% of the time that it now occurs? (My guess is no.) Perhaps the weeding out of the stupid and irresponsible, could be something like IQ tests and personality tests. And your elusion to liberals being concerned about "black bodies" (as if that were a bad thing) refers to the fact that, yes, when force is used it is disproportionally used when "black bodies" are involved. But it is also used unnecessarily with other bodies. Just a few days ago, in a city near mine, a middle aged white guy ran into a police station, yelling "My wife is trying to kill me." He was restrained, purportedly to calm him down. A witness to the event, said that one cop had his knee on the man's neck, and that at one point the man said "I can't breathe." (Word to the wise: if you are ever restrained by cops, don't say "I can't breathe." They must not like it, because obviously, in the moment that you say it, you have some breath.) Anyway, the guy died. If they go far enough in demanding an intelligent and educated police forces, there will soon be no police forces at all. What truly intelligent and educated person would join a police force in a country with an armed populace? Lois