and you expect me to accept your opinion as the truth?No, I expect you to have more respect for the scientific consensus, the very opinions that you sometimes link to. Your links don't support your opinion so saying that you provide them doesn't really mean much. When scientific consensus cannot explain observed phenomena, you have to question it. What caused 15 million Americans to develop food allergies? The scientific consensus is a deafening silence. If the prevailing view is not to be questioned, we would still be living in a flat-Earth, geocentric world. "Food allergy: an enigmatic epidemic." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23648309 If the scientific consensus is that the cause of food allergies is unknown, people cannot argue that food allergies are part of the vaccine cost/benefit equation. If the scientific consensus was that vaccines are known to cause food allergies and the vaccine benefits still outweigh the risks, then vaccine package inserts should clearly state that healthy people can develop food allergies as a side effect. Obviously, there is no such side effect warning in the package insert. "Your links don't support your opinion so saying that you provide them doesn't really mean much." Please be specific and provide references as appropriate.
APV, because I am allergic to eggs, I cannot get the flu shot. A number of doctors, nurses, and other health care people have said that. They won't give it to me because of my egg allergy nor can I get the pneumonia shot. I also did not develop my egg allergy from vaccines though. I'm surprised your son can take it. However,and nothing personal, I would like to get the second opinion from asanta concerning my question above.If I may ask, what do you think caused your allergy? Genetics, esp given my parents also had allergies.
APV, because I am allergic to eggs, I cannot get the flu shot. A number of doctors, nurses, and other health care people have said that. They won't give it to me because of my egg allergy nor can I get the pneumonia shot. I also did not develop my egg allergy from vaccines though. I'm surprised your son can take it. However,and nothing personal, I would like to get the second opinion from asanta concerning my question above.If I may ask, what do you think caused your allergy? Genetics, esp given my parents also had allergies. My understanding is that genes can predispose you towards developing allergies but I have not seen literature showing that you can be born with say, egg allergy. Any references?
APV, because I am allergic to eggs, I cannot get the flu shot. A number of doctors, nurses, and other health care people have said that. They won't give it to me because of my egg allergy nor can I get the pneumonia shot. I also did not develop my egg allergy from vaccines though. I'm surprised your son can take it. However,and nothing personal, I would like to get the second opinion from asanta concerning my question above.If I may ask, what do you think caused your allergy? Genetics, esp given my parents also had allergies. My understanding is that genes can predispose you towards developing allergies but I have not seen literature showing that you can be born with say, egg allergy. Any references? http://www.healthline.com/health/allergies/genetic-link#AllergiesandGenetics1 While allergic reactions do share a genetic link, specific allergies do not. If your parents both had seasonal allergies, you may have a higher risk of developing them too. This doesn’t mean you’ll have the same allergy, however. Your body will be more likely to have allergic reactions, but it could be to peanuts, shellfish, or other common allergens.
APV, because I am allergic to eggs, I cannot get the flu shot. A number of doctors, nurses, and other health care people have said that. They won't give it to me because of my egg allergy nor can I get the pneumonia shot. I also did not develop my egg allergy from vaccines though. I'm surprised your son can take it. However,and nothing personal, I would like to get the second opinion from asanta concerning my question above.If I may ask, what do you think caused your allergy? Genetics, esp given my parents also had allergies. My understanding is that genes can predispose you towards developing allergies but I have not seen literature showing that you can be born with say, egg allergy. Any references? I am using my knowledge of genetics, but given time I can refer you to literature that states feeding a baby foods before their digestive system is ready, can trigger allergies, but I have not read any legit articles stating that vaccines cause allergies. That said, the reason I am waiting for a second opinion from asanta concerning the protein allergy relationship (ie peanuts and eggs being related proteins) also relates to when you feed babies certain foods.
APV, because I am allergic to eggs, I cannot get the flu shot. A number of doctors, nurses, and other health care people have said that. They won't give it to me because of my egg allergy nor can I get the pneumonia shot. I also did not develop my egg allergy from vaccines though. I'm surprised your son can take it. However,and nothing personal, I would like to get the second opinion from asanta concerning my question above.If I may ask, what do you think caused your allergy? Genetics, esp given my parents also had allergies. My understanding is that genes can predispose you towards developing allergies but I have not seen literature showing that you can be born with say, egg allergy. Any references? http://www.healthline.com/health/allergies/genetic-link#AllergiesandGenetics1 While allergic reactions do share a genetic link, specific allergies do not. If your parents both had seasonal allergies, you may have a higher risk of developing them too. This doesn’t mean you’ll have the same allergy, however. Your body will be more likely to have allergic reactions, but it could be to peanuts, shellfish, or other common allergens. Exactly and that is what I was referring too. Thank you. My parents have/had allergies and incidentally both my bio-father and I were/are allergic to penicillin. This points to, IMO, that there is no relationship between vaccines and allergies.
APV continues to imply that it is reasonable to look at a single vaccine component in a very limited setting ( a petri dish, animal studies, very small human studies) and extrapolate those findings to the use of that component as part of a vaccine in a very different setting (the real world). The FDA has tried to tell him ( according to his own posts) that they do not test individual components in this way because it is not informative and has poor predictive value. I have stated the same in several posts which he has continued to ignore. The only studies which matter would be those that look at real world situations ie. whether a particular ingredient can sensitize an individual in the lab means nothing if a study of large numbers of people in the real world show that those who are inoculated with the complete vaccine containing that ingredient are no more likely to develop allergic diseases than those who are not vaccinated.
For some reason APV does not seem to be able to grasp this fact and I suspect he refuses to for the same reason that most anti-vaxxers do. There are no clinical studies that support their view point so they cling to small in-vitro studies that carry very little weight clinically. The studies below all support the conclusion that vaccinated children in the real world do not have more allergic (atopic) diseases than those who are not vaccinated. With that said this non-debate should be concluded.
Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2011 Feb;108(7):99-104. doi: 10.3238/arztebl.2011.0099. Epub 2011 Feb 18.Vaccination status and health in children and adolescents: findings of the German Health Interview and Examination Survey for Children and Adolescents (KiGGS).Schmitz R1, Poethko-Müller C, Reiter S, Schlaud M.]
Pediatr Allergy Immunol. 2008 Sep;19(6):544-51. doi: 10.1111/j.1399-3038.2007.00684.x. Epub 2008 Feb 7.Measles, mumps and rubella infections and atopic disorders in MMR-unvaccinated and MMR-vaccinated children.Bernsen RM1, van der Wouden JC.]
Curr Opin Allergy Clin Immunol. 2009 Feb;9(1):44-9. doi: 10.1097/ACI.0b013e32831f8ef3.Virus vaccines and children with asthma.Anderson M1, Carroll W.]
What concerns me is that he’s going to start talking about vaccines causing Autism, which isn’t true. While there use to be mercury in vaccines, they don’t have them any more and besides that, there is only one study (that was not substantiated by further studies) which tried to connect vaccines with Autism. That study falsely got people riled up about vaccines.
When scientific consensus cannot explain observed phenomena, you have to question it. What caused 15 million Americans to develop food allergies? The scientific consensus is a deafening silence. If the prevailing view is not to be questioned, we would still be living in a flat-Earth, geocentric world.You are using words without knowing what they mean. There is no definitive definition of what "science" means (those quotes mean I am referring to a word, they are not scare quotes). Likewise, defining "scientific consensus" is not straight forward. However, science is exactly the process that was developed to question authority, including it's own authority. There is no "scientific authority", there are only qualified people demonstrating what they discover. As I've been saying, I trust that process. You are now attacking yourself from both sides. You link info that disagrees with you, then you say science is silent on what has caused this "allergy epidemic" you refer to, that means you don't know either. Worse it means, you read scientific reports on the very thing you are worried about, then say they are "silent". Don't you think that shows that you aren't listening?
macgyver,
When I tried to quote your message, my response was rejected as spam. So here it is without quoting your post …
Thank you for the references.
The first study was already posted by mckenzievmd. And as we already discussed, it shows that unvaccinated children have zero incidence of asthma.
Fundamentally, the second study is looking at whether actual infection with measles/rubella offer protection against atopy. So that’s not really relevant to what we are discussing - vaccines causing the development food allergies. I am not advocating wild-type infections to protect against allergy. I am advocating the removal of allergens from vaccines to prevent allergies.
The study notes MMR status in the first year of life and compares the atopy status of kids when they are 8-12 years old.
In the intervening years, the kids probably received 2-3 dozen vaccines. That’s a huge variable!
Even after that, they found that unvaccinated rubella infected kids show less food allergy. They did not like the result so they dismiss it as “The negative association with rubella may be an artefact.”
Even though the result ends up supporting my hypothesis, the study seems sloppy and I am not inclined to use it as a supporting reference.
Similar to the second one, the thrid study is also about whether childhood viral infections confer protections against atopy.
“The strongest evidence in support of a possible association between vaccination and asthma comes from a prospective study of a cohort of children born in 1977 in Christchurch, New Zealand. In that study there was no evidence of asthma after 5 to 10 years of follow-up among 23 children who received neither pertussis nor oral polio vaccine, whereas asthma developed in >20% of 1184 children who had been vaccinated.”
Vaccines are made my multiple manufacturers, each has a different formula except for the amount of the viral proteins.
(The whole point of the original post)
None of these studies note down the exact contents of the vaccines. Such lack of attention to detail is probably a contributor to the contradicting outcomes. As Ayn Rand wrote, when you face a contradiction, examine your premises.
Polysorbate 80 is used to reliably cause lung injury in sheep for research.
Polysorbate 80 is present in many vaccines. So one would expect that any vaccine vs. asthma study would note down whether Polysobate 80 was present in the vaccine being studied and in what quantity.
Merck’s Varivax, MMR II and MMRV contain WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts. If these vaccines were used in the study, one can expect the development of autoimmunity to the lung proteins possibly resulting in asthma. But unless such exact details are noted in the study, we will be going around in circles. As everyone knows, the devil is in the details.
“The only studies which matter would be those that look at real world situations ie. whether a particular ingredient can sensitize an individual in the lab means nothing if a study of large numbers of people in the real world show that those who are inoculated with the complete vaccine containing that ingredient are no more likely to develop allergic diseases than those who are not vaccinated.” Fair enough.
The referenced studies don’t even note down the ingredients, so they don’t support the above statement.
“There are no clinical studies that support their view point so they cling to small in-vitro studies that carry very little weight clinically.”
I don’t think any of my references are in-vitro studies.
What do you think caused 15 million Americans to develop food allergies?
I have provided my hypotheses. Please provide yours and we can compare which one explains more observed phenomena. The progress of science is always about finding better hypotheses that explain more observed phenomena.
What concerns me is that he's going to start talking about vaccines causing Autism, which isn't true. While there use to be mercury in vaccines, they don't have them any more and besides that, there is only one study (that was not substantiated by further studies) which tried to connect vaccines with Autism. That study falsely got people riled up about vaccines.They are trying to phase mercury out but mercury is still definitely present in vaccines as you can see from the package inserts here: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm094045.htm My understanding is that most vaccine/autism studies were mercury related because mercury is a known neurotoxin. My hypotheses of autism is based on an entirely different mechanism unrelated to mercury. As I wrote in the original post, the vaccine/food allergy hypotheses also means that skin/muscle proteins torn off and deposited into the body during an injection are treated as allergens and result in sensitization. So you could develop skin related immune disorder - eczema and muscle protein related immune disorders. One muscle protein - tropomyosin is also present in the brain and intestines. So if you develop allergy to tropomysosin, it would not be surprising if this autoimmunity causes disorders of the brain and intestines. Autistic kids are know to have autoimmune disorders such as IBD and ulcerative colitis also. 75 million kids times 40 vaccines shots per kid is 3 billion shots. Even if the above mechanism only occurred 1 in a 1000 shots, that is still a few million kids with the disease. The rise in eczema, autism and food allergies can be explained by this mechanism, when coupled with the rise in number of vaccine shots and C-section deliveries.
APV, because I am allergic to eggs, I cannot get the flu shot. A number of doctors, nurses, and other health care people have said that. They won't give it to me because of my egg allergy nor can I get the pneumonia shot. I also did not develop my egg allergy from vaccines though. I'm surprised your son can take it. However,and nothing personal, I would like to get the second opinion from asanta concerning my question above.If I may ask, what do you think caused your allergy? Genetics, esp given my parents also had allergies. My understanding is that genes can predispose you towards developing allergies but I have not seen literature showing that you can be born with say, egg allergy. Any references? http://www.healthline.com/health/allergies/genetic-link#AllergiesandGenetics1 While allergic reactions do share a genetic link, specific allergies do not. If your parents both had seasonal allergies, you may have a higher risk of developing them too. This doesn’t mean you’ll have the same allergy, however. Your body will be more likely to have allergic reactions, but it could be to peanuts, shellfish, or other common allergens. Exactly and that is what I was referring too. Thank you. My parents have/had allergies and incidentally both my bio-father and I were/are allergic to penicillin. This points to, IMO, that there is no relationship between vaccines and allergies. I believe Scott_Pryor's response and mine are in agreement that you can have genetic predisposition to develop allergies but you cannot be born with an allergy to a particular item like egg or penicillin. So if you are genetically predisposed, you still have to determine how you developed the allergy to a particular substance.
APV, because I am allergic to eggs, I cannot get the flu shot. A number of doctors, nurses, and other health care people have said that. They won't give it to me because of my egg allergy nor can I get the pneumonia shot. I also did not develop my egg allergy from vaccines though. I'm surprised your son can take it. However,and nothing personal, I would like to get the second opinion from asanta concerning my question above.If I may ask, what do you think caused your allergy? Genetics, esp given my parents also had allergies. My understanding is that genes can predispose you towards developing allergies but I have not seen literature showing that you can be born with say, egg allergy. Any references? I am using my knowledge of genetics, but given time I can refer you to literature that states feeding a baby foods before their digestive system is ready, can trigger allergies, but I have not read any legit articles stating that vaccines cause allergies. That said, the reason I am waiting for a second opinion from asanta concerning the protein allergy relationship (ie peanuts and eggs being related proteins) also relates to when you feed babies certain foods. "feeding a baby foods before their digestive system is ready, can trigger allergies," Agree. If there is not enough stomach acid, allergens that are fed to the baby will not be denatured and the allergens are absorbed intact into the blood causing sensitization. However, my understanding is that babies secrete stomach acid in a few days. It is highly unlikely, that babies in the first few days are fed peanuts, tree nuts or other allergens. So this mechanism cannot explain the epidemic we see today. "I have not read any legit articles stating that vaccines cause allergies." Here's one clearly demonstrating gelatin protein in vaccine causing development of gelatin allergy in people. Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9. Imagine an aircraft pops a tire on landing. One would expect that EVERY tire will be examined for defects before you take-off again. Likewise, given Charles Richet's fundamental discovery and the above study's finding, one would expect that ALL proteins present in vaccines would have immediately been subjected to an investigation in 2003. As I pointed out, this team not only understood the problem but was even working on finding a solution in 1997! https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/allergolint/46/4/46_4_249/_pd "Many cases are diagnosed as immediate-type allergic reactions and it is well established that the IgE antibody induced against the vaccine antigen or vaccine components is responsible for the reactions. " You are unable to find any more vaccine vs. food allergy studies and that is exactly the problem I am pointing out. People are not paying enough attention to study vaccine vs. food allergy and resolve this huge problem.
What concerns me is that he's going to start talking about vaccines causing Autism, which isn't true. While there use to be mercury in vaccines, they don't have them any more and besides that, there is only one study (that was not substantiated by further studies) which tried to connect vaccines with Autism. That study falsely got people riled up about vaccines.They are trying to phase mercury out but mercury is still definitely present in vaccines as you can see from the package inserts here: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm094045.htm My understanding is that most vaccine/autism studies were mercury related because mercury is a known neurotoxin. My hypotheses of autism is based on an entirely different mechanism unrelated to mercury. As I wrote in the original post, the vaccine/food allergy hypotheses also means that skin/muscle proteins torn off and deposited into the body during an injection are treated as allergens and result in sensitization. So you could develop skin related immune disorder - eczema and muscle protein related immune disorders. One muscle protein - tropomyosin is also present in the brain and intestines. So if you develop allergy to tropomysosin, it would not be surprising if this autoimmunity causes disorders of the brain and intestines. Autistic kids are know to have autoimmune disorders such as IBD and ulcerative colitis also. 75 million kids times 40 vaccines shots per kid is 3 billion shots. Even if the above mechanism only occurred 1 in a 1000 shots, that is still a few million kids with the disease. The rise in eczema, autism and food allergies can be explained by this mechanism, when coupled with the rise in number of vaccine shots and C-section deliveries. You know what, I can safely deduce that my egg allergy was not caused by vaccines, because all the vaccines I received as a child were not created in eggs. Secondly, I can also deduce that my younger son's ASD (high functioning) was not related to giving him vaccines, esp when there is a family history of Autism. I think people are trying hard to blame something other than genetics when it comes to their children. They don't want to believe that even autoimmune disorders are genetic and they just want to blame something that saves lives in order to avoid facing scientific evidence. They rather rely on pseudo-science than face reality. It's sort of like believing humans existed in Yabba-dabba-do land.
People are not paying enough attention to study vaccine vs. food allergy and resolve this huge problem.Anti-vaccers really get on my nerves because they refuse to see how many lives vaccines save. Which is worse? Dying from smallpox or being allergic to eggs? Personally, I rather take the egg allergy that wasn't even caused by the vaccinations my mother made sure I had, just as I made sure my sons had too, who BTW do not have any food allergies.
People are not paying enough attention to study vaccine vs. food allergy and resolve this huge problem.Anti-vaccers really get on my nerves because they refuse to see how many lives vaccines save. Which is worse? Dying from smallpox or being allergic to eggs? Personally, I rather take the egg allergy that wasn't even caused by the vaccinations my mother made sure I had, just as I made sure my sons had too, who BTW do not have any food allergies. We just discussed how my son who is allergic to egg was able to get flu shots. You turn around and call me an anti-vaccer? "Dying from smallpox or being allergic to eggs?" That is a false choice. I want a safer vaccine that will protect without causing disease. People want a better iPhone every two years. But it is blasphemy to suggest that vaccine safety must be improved? If the benefit of vaccine-preventable diseases outweighing the risk of food allergy is an official position, then why don't they list food allergy as a side effect on vaccine package inserts?
What concerns me is that he's going to start talking about vaccines causing Autism, which isn't true. While there use to be mercury in vaccines, they don't have them any more and besides that, there is only one study (that was not substantiated by further studies) which tried to connect vaccines with Autism. That study falsely got people riled up about vaccines.They are trying to phase mercury out but mercury is still definitely present in vaccines as you can see from the package inserts here: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm094045.htm My understanding is that most vaccine/autism studies were mercury related because mercury is a known neurotoxin. My hypotheses of autism is based on an entirely different mechanism unrelated to mercury. As I wrote in the original post, the vaccine/food allergy hypotheses also means that skin/muscle proteins torn off and deposited into the body during an injection are treated as allergens and result in sensitization. So you could develop skin related immune disorder - eczema and muscle protein related immune disorders. One muscle protein - tropomyosin is also present in the brain and intestines. So if you develop allergy to tropomysosin, it would not be surprising if this autoimmunity causes disorders of the brain and intestines. Autistic kids are know to have autoimmune disorders such as IBD and ulcerative colitis also. 75 million kids times 40 vaccines shots per kid is 3 billion shots. Even if the above mechanism only occurred 1 in a 1000 shots, that is still a few million kids with the disease. The rise in eczema, autism and food allergies can be explained by this mechanism, when coupled with the rise in number of vaccine shots and C-section deliveries. You know what, I can safely deduce that my egg allergy was not caused by vaccines, because all the vaccines I received as a child were not created in eggs. Secondly, I can also deduce that my younger son's ASD (high functioning) was not related to giving him vaccines, esp when there is a family history of Autism. I think people are trying hard to blame something other than genetics when it comes to their children. They don't want to believe that even autoimmune disorders are genetic and they just want to blame something that saves lives in order to avoid facing scientific evidence. They rather rely on pseudo-science than face reality. It's sort of like believing humans existed in Yabba-dabba-do land. Ok, if you have done the research and determined that your egg allergy was not caused by vaccines, fine. You may have had acid reducing medications when consuming egg? As far as I know, intact egg proteins must come into contact with your blood for you to develop allergies. If you have determined that this happened to you by a route other than vaccines, fine. Of course some diseases can be of genetic origin. The problem is, how do you explain a genetic change that causes ASD in so many people in just one generation? It is far more likely that a combination of pre-existing latent genetic predisposition and some new environmental factor(s) that now trigger it are the cause. One environmental factor that must be investigated is vaccines because of the big increase in the number of vaccines over the last few decades. We simply do not understand enough about vaccines and their effect to declare them safe and close the case. If you believe genetics can explain it all, please provide the appropriate references.
One of the Hib vaccines contains Modified Mueller Miller medium. Other two Hib vaccines do not.
Modified Mueller Miller medium contains pancreatic digest.
According to my hypothesis, one would predict that the pancreatic digest in the Hib vaccine could cause autoimmunity to the pancreas, thus attacking pancreatic cells resulting in the autoimmune disorder - diabetes.
Please see the diabetes mellitus section in:
http://blog.blsvh.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Vaccine-induced-autoimmunity.pdf
Just another coincidence?
People want a better iPhone every two years. But it is blasphemy to suggest that vaccine safety must be improved? If the benefit of vaccine-preventable diseases outweighing the risk of food allergy is an official position, then why don't they list food allergy as a side effect on vaccine package inserts?That's kind of telling isn't it? Comparing one of the most successful consumer products, marketed by a company that specifically targets people who want the new technology as soon as it comes out, the young/short attention crowd, to science that needs to done carefully with attention to detail and thorough testing. Why don't you just go around to labs throw temper tantrums?
People are not paying enough attention to study vaccine vs. food allergy and resolve this huge problem.Anti-vaccers really get on my nerves because they refuse to see how many lives vaccines save. Which is worse? Dying from smallpox or being allergic to eggs? Personally, I rather take the egg allergy that wasn't even caused by the vaccinations my mother made sure I had, just as I made sure my sons had too, who BTW do not have any food allergies. We just discussed how my son who is allergic to egg was able to get flu shots. You turn around and call me an anti-vaccer? "Dying from smallpox or being allergic to eggs?" That is a false choice. I want a safer vaccine that will protect without causing disease. People want a better iPhone every two years. But it is blasphemy to suggest that vaccine safety must be improved? If the benefit of vaccine-preventable diseases outweighing the risk of food allergy is an official position, then why don't they list food allergy as a side effect on vaccine package inserts? No, I didn't say you were an anti-vaccer. I said that anti-vaccers get on my nerves and then I asked questions, not necessarily directed at you, but you chose to respond only because I singled out one statement that you made. People want better iPhones every 2 years? Really? I think it is only those individuals who use an iPhone who want a better one. Those of us who still use land lines could care less about iPhones, but I don't take the remark as personally as you took mine. There is an old saying though, "If the shoe fits..."