For most of this thread, and definitely the entire pg 4 of it, you haven’t said anything. I pointed that out and you responded saying “they’re passing laws and stuff, polls agree with me”. You’ve stated the problem, ad nauseum, and offered no solution. I think you said “get tougher” once. Are you afraid to say where you stand? Do you want to hire more guns at the border or just buy more buses and start rounding up anyone without an ID or do you know of some brilliant immigration reform legislation that the rest of us don’t? What?
The survey found that “the most powerful independent predictor" of people’s opposition to citizenship for illegal immigrants is whether they say they rely on Fox News as their most trusted source of information on politics and current events.
So? What’s that mean?
The few people who have expressed their opposition to illegal immigration here are not Fox News viewers.
Does that mean that all the people who view Fox News, and are against illegal immigration are wrong because they watch Fox News?
What other bits of hyperbole do you have Lausten? Any more red herrings?
It means exactly what I said, poll results can be affected by propaganda. Polls are NOT a reflection of the smartest choices or the best policies. You’re the one who brought up how polls support your opinion. Maybe you should have picked a poll that supported you. I wish you would because I’d love to hear something intelligent from your side of things. I enjoy debate, but this isn’t debate.
I just recognize that illegal immigration is a problem. I stated already that one way to combat it would be restricting all employers from hiring
illegal aliens.
There’s already laws for that. They just need to be enforced more stringently and regularly.
I already stated that.
Why does everything have to go round in circles for you Lausten?
Can you keep up with this discussion? Are you able to retain in your memory what participants have already stated?
You make this discussion very easy in one way. It’s very easy for me to get simple ideas across.
You make it difficult by returning to items we have already discussed. It’s boring.
Anything else?
The survey found that “the most powerful independent predictor" of people’s opposition to citizenship for illegal immigrants is whether they say they rely on Fox News as their most trusted source of information on politics and current events.
So? What’s that mean?
The few people who have expressed their opposition to illegal immigration here are not Fox News viewers.
Does that mean that all the people who view Fox News, and are against illegal immigration are wrong because they watch Fox News?
What other bits of hyperbole do you have Lausten? Any more red herrings?
It means exactly what I said, poll results can be affected by propaganda. Polls are NOT a reflection of the smartest choices or the best policies. You’re the one who brought up how polls support your opinion. Maybe you should have picked a poll that supported you. I wish you would because I’d love to hear something intelligent from your side of things. I enjoy debate, but this isn’t debate.
Gallup Polling is a pretty reputable polling agency. Look it up.
Plus I just go by what the average person tells me when we discuss the issue.
This thread contains a pretty good cross-section of those people. And they’re all liberals/moderates at least.
Polls don’t reflect “smart choices” or “policies”.
Policies or smart choices usually reflect polls. Get your facts straight Lausten.
Come on, both of you. Cool it. You’ve both made your points clearly and repeatedly. I know that when you present what you seem is a clear and irrifutable agument and the other doesn’t accept it, it can annoy you, but just be gentle and recognize each other’s “logical disabilities”. :lol: (And I didn’t even put it in blue this time.)
Occam
I just recognize that illegal immigration is a problem. I stated already that one way to combat it would be restricting all employers from hiring illegal aliens. There's already laws for that. They just need to be enforced more stringently and regularly. I already stated that. You make this discussion very easy in one way. It's very easy for me to get simple ideas across. You make it difficult by returning to items we have already discussed. It's boring. Anything else?Or I see, so you have a third grade understanding of this situation and are happy with that. I keep coming back to things because you don't discuss them, you just repeat "it's a problem, it's a problem". Sorry that I brought things up like global economies, and the finer points of prejudice and nationalism. Go back to believing that tougher law enforcement will solve everything if that makes you happy.
Polls don't reflect "smart choices" or "policies". Policies or smart choices usually reflect polls. Get your facts straight Lausten.ooookay. [walks slowing backwards and turns to something that appears to have caught his attention]
OK, apparently I didn’t get through to either of you (see posts #64 & #65) so I’ll repeat it this way: Come on, both of you. Cool it. You’ve both made your points clearly and repeatedly. I know that when you present what you seem is a clear and irrifutable agument and the other doesn’t accept it, it can annoy you, but just be gentle and recognize each other’s “logical disabilities". I like both of you, but damn it, the Administrator gets very disturbed at personal attacks in the posts and he is the one who has the power to ban.
Occam
Really, boys, you are both plenty smart enough to play nice, and even make an occasional point with sarcasm, without being personal.
OK, apparently I didn't get through to either of you (see posts #64 & #65) so I'll repeat it this way: Come on, both of you. Cool it. You’ve both made your points clearly and repeatedly. I know that when you present what you seem is a clear and irrifutable agument and the other doesn’t accept it, it can annoy you, but just be gentle and recognize each other’s “logical disabilities". I like both of you, but damn it, the Administrator gets very disturbed at personal attacks in the posts and he is the one who has the power to ban. OccamMy last post on this thread was at 1135 am. June 16 Forum Time. I put Lausten on ignore at that time too in anticipation of further attacks/trolling by him. So I haven't even seen these apparently derisive comments by him. I'm liking this ignore button. That's why the button's there. You custom make the Forum you want.
OK, apparently I didn't get through to either of you (see posts #64 & #65) so I'll repeat it this way: Come on, both of you. Cool it. You’ve both made your points clearly and repeatedly. I know that when you present what you seem is a clear and irrifutable agument and the other doesn’t accept it, it can annoy you, but just be gentle and recognize each other’s “logical disabilities". I like both of you, but damn it, the Administrator gets very disturbed at personal attacks in the posts and he is the one who has the power to ban. OccamI didn't see #64 while I was composing my recent retorts. I don't think my argument is irrefutable. I spent yesterday asking for something, anything. It took that long for VYAZMA to restate the one thing he's been saying and state that is all he has to say.
Is the US going to accept every country's excess children, give them amnesty, feed, clothe, shelter and educate as many as want to come here or whose parents send here or who represent a problem Mexico wants to get rid of? Reunite them with their parents who also crossed the border illegally? LoisIf they can be turned into potential voters, then probably yes. They won't be, though. They will be turned into poor, hungry, jobless and homeless people, most of whom don't vote or can't vote. Did you read the articles I linked? They only keep coming because we have jobs. We are one of the richest countries in the history of the world Lois and all you can do is list problems and claim that if you happen to be the most recent group of immigrants that lives here, it's your right to keep it. Simply because our ancestors killed millions of the natives who once lived here, that somehow makes the riches here ours. That is so ridiculous and completely racists. We may or may not be one of the richest countries in the world, but it has no bearing on the case. We also have political gridlock. A capitalistic system that sends billions to billionaires and leaves a good proportion of the population without jobs, and little chance to get any, homelessness, poor and declining healthcare, poor and declining education, poor and declining housing, increasing and poorly addressed crime, including street crime, all of which defies common sense, but is solidly entrenched. And you want to bring in millions more people who will be unable to survive on their own. Do you want utter chaos? Saying the US is the richest country in the world means nothing if the vast majority people are prevented from accessing it. You might as wll say that people should settle at Fort Knox because there are trillions of dollars worth of gold there, more than enough to help everyone. We have to fix our political problems before we can have more and more immigrants than our infrastructure can possibly handle. Abstract and inaccessible riches will do no good but to act as a justification for doing nothing and increasing misery and chaos for the 98%.
We have to fix our political problems before we can have more and more immigrants that our infrastructure can possibly handle. Abstract and inaccessible riches will do no good but to act as a justification for doing nothing and increasing misery and chaos for the 98%.Crime is not increasing. Homelessness has also decreased recently, despite the economic downturn. Unemployment is going down. I could keep googling every phrase you listed, but why should I? And who said I want to bring millions more immigrants in? Part of the political problem that needs fixing is setting our immigration levels at the correct level. Currently, there are lots of employers who, by their actions, are saying they need employees. They are risking illegal actions to get them. That’s a political problem. Making wild claims about Mexicans taking our jobs and causing chaos doesn’t address it.
...Part of the political problem that needs fixing is setting our immigration levels at the correct level. Currently, there are lots of employers who, by their actions, are saying they need employees. They are risking illegal actions to get them. That’s a political problem. Making wild claims about Mexicans taking our jobs and causing chaos doesn’t address it.A bigger part to fix, I think, is creating a quick and efficient path to citizenship for the immigrants that can help us re-grow the middle class. Employers, as long as they can get away with it, will exploit illegal workers rather than pay Citizens a living wage. This contributes to wealth and income disparity. The availability of illegal workers exacerbates the problem, but employers who hire these workers are the ones who draw them in. IMO, the focus of complaints should not be on illegal immigrants, but rather on illegal employers.
...Part of the political problem that needs fixing is setting our immigration levels at the correct level. Currently, there are lots of employers who, by their actions, are saying they need employees. They are risking illegal actions to get them. That’s a political problem. Making wild claims about Mexicans taking our jobs and causing chaos doesn’t address it.A bigger part to fix, I think, is creating a quick and efficient path to citizenship for the immigrants that can help us re-grow the middle class. Employers, as long as they can get away with it, will exploit illegal workers rather than pay Citizens a living wage. This contributes to wealth and income disparity. The availability of illegal workers exacerbates the problem, but employers who hire these workers are the ones who draw them in. IMO, the focus of complaints should not be on illegal immigrants, but rather on illegal employers. What makes you think that allowing them to become citizens will improve their lot. They will still be poor, they'll be working at any job they can get and will be exploited by employers just as they are now. Millions of US citizens are being exploited, now. They are not being paid a living wage and are left to depend on social services, which are stretched to the breaking point. How will making more immigrants citizens help the situation? Exploitation by employers doesn't stop because people are citizens. It will simply create a class of desperately poor citizens instead of desperately poor immigrants. Nothing will change. We live in a country where poor citizens are not treated any better than poor undocumented immigrants and where there aren't enough social services to handle the problems of the desperately poor, no matter what their citizenship status. Lois
A bigger part to fix, I think, is creating a quick and efficient path to citizenship for the immigrants that can help us re-grow the middle class. Employers, as long as they can get away with it, will exploit illegal workers rather than pay Citizens a living wage. This contributes to wealth and income disparity. The availability of illegal workers exacerbates the problem, but employers who hire these workers are the ones who draw them in. IMO, the focus of complaints should not be on illegal immigrants, but rather on illegal employers.What makes you think that allowing them to become citizens will improve their lot. They will still be poor, they'll be working at any job they can get and will be exploited by employers just as they are now. Millions of US citizens are being exploited, now. They are not being paid a living wage and are left to depend on social services, which are stretched to the breaking point. How will making more immigrants citizens help the situation? Exploitation by employers doesn't stop because people are citizens. It will simply create a class of desperately poor citizens instead of desperately poor immigrants. Nothing will change. We live in a country where poor citizens are not treated any better than poor undocumented immigrants and where there aren't enough social services to handle the problems of the desperately poor, no matter what their citizenship status. Lois For one thing, if immigrants had absolutely no prospects of improving their lot, they wouldn't be immigrating. I dispute your assertion that poor citizens are as easily exploited as illegal immigrants. Secondly, my suggestion was re: immigrants who "can help us re-grow the middle class". In our national interest, I would tend to exclude those who are poorly educated and are also unlikely to excel in our educational system. I would tend to exclude those who are unskilled and can be easily exploited. I would definitely exclude those who are likely to engage in criminal behavior as citizens. But for the rest, I would say make them citizens ASAP. I agree, as you know, that our system is geared heavily in favor of the extravagantly wealthy. But, in the long term, I think that it would be potentially beneficial, in adjusting this disparity, to quickly bring in skilled, educated, and intelligent persons as citizens.
More signs the government needs to act on the growing illegal immigration problem.
The US has been bombarded with far too many Third World Aliens for far too long.
For those of us concerned about the welfare of the US and her Citizens, let’s hope future administrations keep up the fight.
It’s a terrible problem.
Greater Enforcement, more efficient deportations.]
To deal with the problem primarily thru border control is ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS. (I say as a general statement.) To be effective it would require something like a reverse Berlin Wall. Besides being insane, it would not be cost effective. In fact it would be a stupendous waste.
If we don’t want immigrants, we should not draw them in. (But we do, apparently, want some immigrants. For those, give them a quick, easy path to legal status and/or citizenship.) For the rest, PUNISH anyone who gives them a job. And don’t provide them social services. (This last one is a hard choice for us humanitarian types, but, I think, necessary. The ONLY social services for them, if necessary, should be ones that keep them alive and safe until they can be deported.)
For illegal immigrants who are here now (excluding refugees of violence), the ones who show good potential for being or becoming productive guest workers and/or citizens, give them a quick easy path to legal status. Deport all the rest.
For illegal immigrants who are fleeing violence, provide a refugee camp where they can stay until they wish to leave our country or until they can be deported safely, whichever comes first.
Make it clear and true that those who are exceptional and can contribute can get in legally and quickly. And that the rest will have little incentive to be here.
The vast bulk of our resources used to address immigration should be put toward getting the immigrants that we want, excluding the ones we don’t want, punishing persons who hire illegals, and making it clear to the world that this is how it’s going to be.
Exactly Tim, the problem is immigration policy, not immigrants. Unfortunately it helps the employers to have a broken system and the public is easily manipulated to believe it is in their interest to keep it the way it is.
Exactly Tim, the problem is immigration policy, not immigrants. Unfortunately it helps the employers to have a broken system and the public is easily manipulated to believe it is in their interest to keep it the way it is.Sorry, I added a controversial "Don't give them social services" in my post after you replied. You may or may not agree with that part.