Awaken to reality!

Just to add more reasons why the more you learn about science the less joy it brings to your life because it shatters the foundations that make that possible, mostly with sensation:

This shows how unreliable our senses are citing optical illusions as well as how our memories can alter perception.

This argues that thought as you know it isn’t real and all decisions are made without your knowledge.

This is about how the brain interprets weak stimuli to mean anything really.

This further explains the lag of our senses:

Along with this follow up answer from another user also demonstrating further doubt in the senses:

"In terms of video games, similar models are used but usually called other names like “latency compensation.” A simple example is predicting the momentum of another player on your machine, while waiting for the real (always past) data from the server. An easy algorithm for this particular prediction is to just draw a straight line from the player’s last known past position (authoritatively given by the server to your client machine) that aligns with their last calculated velocity. Everything in this calculation is from the past. And it’s unlikely players are moving in perfectly straight lines. But if you just approximate it that way anyway, and then update frequently enough by snapping the player back to where they actually were when you finally receive the new, updated, but again past, data, then it will look pretty good. Human vision goes beyond just predicting always straight lines of course. We predict other worldlines too, by looking for patterns. This is why so many optical illusions can create the sense of motion without it being there. That’s your brain trying to guess where something is going and sometimes it gets duped by well-designed optical illusions that hack this. At any rate, you predictively hallucinate then update, rinse and repeat, over and over. Those predictive hallucinations are always based on the past, and since they take a window of time to compute, and in the case of quantities over time like momentum, are additionally always Uncertain, fundamentally, because they are defined over windows of time, you end up being wrong a lot. But the impact is constrained by how frequently you update. You may have noticed that sometimes you are sharper than other times, and your ability to predict physics is sometimes really accurate and snappy, and other times broken and groggy. That’s your update system working fast, or not working fast,

These systems are far from perfect and so is ours. We perceive things incorrectly a lot of the time but just like a video game, we update constantly and often tend to forget we just saw something wrong unless it actually catches our attention. This is why for instance you may think you read a word on a sign only to do a double take and realize that word isn’t there. Yet it seemed like you saw that word. But of course, when you do that double take, the word is corrected in your “hallucination” of reality. You might notice something like that especially if the word you hallucinated was a cuss word or something crazy. But this is happening all day, all the time. And you don’t notice it usually because your brain just fixes it and moves on and it wasn’t noticeable.

Sometimes, you might be doing a tricky physical maneuver, say surfing, or skating, and something goes wrong, and you’re very confused about it because you could have sworn you saw something different before it happened to what actually happened. That would be an example of your brain experiencing lag and that lag being big enough compared to the speed needed to precisely pull of the maneuver. This is why fast hand eye coordination is difficult. Practice helps because practice helps you build up those predictive circuits by training on data sets.

The question as posed was focused on “present” vs. “past,” however. The problem with that is of course that there is no such thing as “the present” really, and “the past” is more of an abstract notion related to the order of causal events. It’s popular to say “there is only the present,” and the “past is an illusion. But really, it’s more like “there are only events which you now experience as the past due to the arrow of time, aka. the causal ordering.” The present is a predictive “hallucination” based on patterns extracted from past memories, and then constantly corrected via feedback. So in a sense, people have it exactly wrong. The past is closer to being the “real” thing than the present is, in terms of how consciousness actually works.

But that’s only if you take a solipsistic brain-centered view of the universe. Their point is that somehow the universe exists outside of your point of view, and so that you see only the past at all is just a limitation of yours, supposedly.

But that doesn’t work either because they are assuming local realism, which doesn’t seem to be right. Everything that exists, from your frame of reference, exists only because it is somehow entangled with you. The information you receive from everything in the universe that is entangled with you is the only reality that we can say “exists.” But to be entangled with consciousness takes time. It’s not like there is an infinitesimal slice of time that consciousness takes place in every “moment.” No. It’s an inherently smudged out property, taking always an interval of time due to the pipelining of work done by your meat computer. That window of time isn’t just a delay for no reason or a delay purely for travel time of thoughts. There’s that too. But it’s mainly delay caused by the fact that consciousness itself takes time because it’s a computation.

So you only ever experience the past and predict the future. The cut off, which again is not a precise “moment” of time but a small smudged out window of time, is the delay it takes your consciousness to process your experience. So the “present” can be thought of as that smudged out window of time that straddles the past memories and the future predictions, but it’s not exactly clear where one ends and the other begins. You might be able to notice your lag, somewhat, during meditation, but it’s not because you are eliminating the lag of your consciousness altogether. That doesn’t even make sense and is contradictory. It’s just that you’re experiencing a lower latency in one part of your brain, which is then monitoring other parts of your brain. So you notice that difference, but don’t be fooled into thinking you’ve beat latency. You’ve just got two latencies that are different, and the difference between them isn’t the total lag. You simply cannot escape lag.

The Uncertainty Principle strikes again."

And, last but not least, further driving the point home about how everything we experience has already happened in that we live in the past, almost like what we are seeing isn’t real, we don’t live in the now:

Like…you don’t really have anything to offer to make the case that learning more about the world makes life better. That simply isn’t born out. Most people don’t know about all this so they can live happy lives, but once they do it opens the gates to doubt so much more.

Not to mention my quote before about emotions and how you don’t genuinely feel anything because it’s all social programming, you feel that way because society says you ought to not because that’s how you feel for real.

It’s learning science and thinking it makes the world interesting is fine when you’re a kid, but that’s because they don’t know how deep it goes and how much you lose in the process. The list of discoveries that destroy wonder and meaning goes on. Just google Constructed Theory of Emotions.

I know it’s hard to deal with coming to terms of how we don’t have free will, and how we can’t sense all of reality, or know for sure if we are even close to knowing anything.

But I’ve been through all of this, science, philosophy, just thinking about it. I still feel joy. I know my approximation of reality will get me through the night. My desire to survive is enough to keep me going.

inthedark, I don’t have time to chase down those article, perhaps tomorrow.

Although if that’s as far as you’ve gotten in your thinking, there doesn’t seem to be much point trying.

But you keep forgetting that detail that in real life, you duck that ball that I suddenly, unexpectedly toss at your head. So the simplistic notion of our brain being on some kind of 15sec delay, is a gross misinterpretation, misunderstanding.

These ideas aren’t new

Click through to

For how to embrace the illusion

Also, check out Anil Seth !

And none of any of those negates the facts of physical reality.

It’s all about how we interpret our senses.

That’s a very key distinction, that seems to keep getting lost in the word play.

It’s an example of what being lost within our mindscape is all about.

You know I agree with you, right? We can talk about what reality is, and we can talk about how we perceive reality, and how we handle the difficulties of coming to terms with it, with being fooled, with having imaginations, with seeing things that just “can’t be real”, etc. So, I was mainly addressing @inthedarkness. Call it “human mindscape” if you want, my point was that people have been talking about this in different ways for a long time.

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I do.

That was written more with the audience in mind.

And trying to get people to talk about it directly, rather than riddles.

Hopefully Mr Darkness has something to chew on

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Then I’d argue one hasn’t considered the implications of such things. Free will is pretty much the basis for everything we do in life and what inspires people to live life on their terms.

As for sensing all of reality, it’s more the case the we aren’t in the present, that’s just an illusion.

And as for emotion:

“You spend enough time in meditation, you will realize that you never genuinely feel feelings in the first place
it is all just cause and effect response
and a lot of the time the specificity of that response is ascribed to how societal expectations dictate one should be effected by a particular cause
loss–>sadness
gain–>joy”

Once one recognizes the what they feel isn’t really theirs it tends to upend things. I know for me I don’t really feel anything anymore after reading and pondering that. Realizing you feel that way because society said so and that it isn’t you feeling that is…something.

I’m telling you that your main point about evolution is irrelevant, it sounds like you haven’t gone very far in your own thinking.

Not really, if you google it 15 second vision delay it’s all over the place.

Except it kinda does. If there is a delay in processing, if we live in the past behind the present and never in the now (not to mention that giant block of text that argues otherwise) that is more than enough to question physical reality. Even that Vox article does it. Even this one:

Like…what you see has already happened. Even our brains make things up like color and sound. So much of this negates the sensation of what we consider to be real.

As I said, you haven’t gone far enough in your thinking.

It’s enough for you. Understanding mental processing doesn’t change that I’m processing something that’s real. Not for me. That my feelings bubble up from somewhere, doesn’t change that they are my feelings, they bubble from my biology.

That realness is also why it takes a little time to process, real signals never happen instantaneously, real stuff (be it photons, or molecules, neural cascades or baseballs) has to travel from here to there. Nature has evolved ways of dealing with that and the fleeting racing moment that is the now.

https://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com

Ever think you might be mistaken?

So you mean, you would not be able to duck that ball that I just lobed at your head?
Does that ball really take 15 seconds to cross the room?
Let’s have your answer to that connundrum.

Then have think. Looking at the complexity and connected compartmentalization of our brains and looking at the reality of living in a very active environment, doesn’t notion of “BUFFERING” the information, yet scanning the next moment for relevant changes, make a bit more sense, in that it answers more questions.

Whereas a blanket statement: that "we are living 15 seconds in the past’ is ludicrous on the face of it simply because it doesn’t conform to what we witness every day.

So, my default is that you are missing some very important information, and are making a grand conclusion of a factoid - taken out of context.

The now is an infinitesimal fleeting moment, all that really exists is the past and the present.

Oh and haven’t you learned you can’t really study science by reading articles that non-scientists write about the science. Those articles and give you a rough outline of what’s happening, but if you want to understand the nuances and exceptions and the full context of those soundbite, you need to reach into the real science.

Perceiving the Past. The Time Lag of Our Senses | by Ulf Wolf | Wolf Musings | Medium

“Where I, along with the rest of humanity, learned how to do this (to translate a nerve signal to a specific sense perception) I haven’t a clue, but it’s an interesting question. In fact, I find the whole subject of nerves and signals fascinating.”

Right there, ignoring that this Learning happened way back in Evolution before humans existed, reveals a shocking shallowness right from the start.

Then the article goes behind a paywall, making me wonder if you’ve read the entire article? One of the last sentences I could read holds the key insight you seem to find easy to disregard:

But it can get even a little more complex than that.

No “can” about it, it does get even more complex.
Mind you I’m not saying these lags don’t exist, they do.
I’m saying your interpretation of what that means is wholly inadequate to the facts as we know them.

This is my new mantra. If more people could understand what you said about science journalism vs real science, the world would be a better place.

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You do know that thoughts have a quantum aspect to them?

What Causes the Brain to Have Slow Processing Speed, and How Can the Rate Be Improved?

That processing speed slows with age is intuitive to most people. Many elderly individuals have noticed that it takes them longer to solve problems or make decisions than it did when they were young. Yet the reasons for this age-related deceleration in information processing are not completely understood and may vary from person to person.

Some compelling evidence suggests that such a decline reflects wear and tear of the white matter in the brain, which is made up of all the wires, or axons, that connect one part of the brain to another. Slowed information transfer along axons may impede processing speed. But what causes this axonal communication to slow down in the first place?

more… What Causes the Brain to Have Slow Processing Speed, and How Can the Rate Be Improved? | Scientific American

The answer is “microtubule catastrophe”. look it up.

The Biology of General Anesthesia from Paramecium to Primate - PMC

Finding something on the internet is not the same as scientific consensus

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Not really, understanding mental processing doesn’t mean you are processing something that is real. This is the case for color and sound. The fact your feelings bubble from somewhere means they aren’t yours.

Even what you like is based more of the stories that we tell about the object in question rather than the thing itself. So in a sense you aren’t living in reality but rather a story about it.

Like I said, the more you learn the more joy erodes away as you can no longer justify the underpinnings that make it happen.

They don’t.

Also your links have nothing to do with the original point at all.

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Yet if there is a delay between what is happening and what you are seeing then how can you call it real? We know our brains construct reality and if we are always in the past that’s enough to question whether this is real or not.

Again, avoiding the central issue with irrelevant points. You’re arguing the notion of life is real when it’s all just matter. Evolution is irrelevant. The point in the Quora post is that there isn’t any difference between you and a rock besides how the matter is arranged. Notions of life are an illusion. Literally everything you mention hinges on something you haven’t demonstrated.

I’m saying it’s enough to question that notion of what is real or not. It doesn’t matter what you witness every day that doesn’t change what is. Science FREQUENTLY contradictions our intuitions and experience of the world.

You haven’t reached into the real science. Those articles are by scientists, the vox one was just copied from a university. In case you haven’t been reading there is no such thing as the now according to science. We are in the past, always. All the research I showed pointed to that while you’ve given nothing to really challenge that.

It sounds more like you’re just avoiding engaging with the actual issue because you know you can’t really defend that learning about science and the world enhances joy. I already showed that’s not the case with emotion, likes and dislikes, and now sensation. I’ll repeat, the notion that learning more about the world giving pleasure is naive. Hume might have had the right idea after all.

In case I didn’t give the point on pleasure: https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/why-do-we-like-what-we-like

Why do we like what we like? The neuroscience behind the objects that please us.

[quote=“inthedarkness, post:58, topic:10083”]
Also your links have nothing to do with the original point at all.
[/quote] Which links? And what point?

And how do you describe Awakening to reality?