An evening at the Philosophy Club - "Is Belief in God Rational"

I should be going to bed, but my head is full of dancing memories from this evening’s (Dec 3rd) panel discussion that had four FLC professors debating the question: “Is belief in God rational?” Excellent stories told and arguments offered, claims made and responded to with counterclaims and more questions, as words upon words cascaded over each other.

Not for the first time. I found myself wondering, if philosophy’s goal is to help us understand, why the love for adding layers upon layers of creative complexity and hairsplitting that often obscures the fundamentals? After all, it is the simple fundamentals that make a coherent understanding possible?

Please understand I come at this God question from a different, and apparently somewhat unique Earth Centrist, science respecting, bottom up, evolutionary perspective that I’d like to share with you.

Is Belief in God Rational?

To me, that framing feels like a trick question of sorts

God is a belief in itself.

God is not a Thing.

Regarding people’s faith in a God - I ask, how does an assumption of God get transmuted into a Thing?

Is a belief in a belief rational? ( Is faith rational? )

I’d say sure, from an evolutionary and pragmatic societal perspective, there are a host of reasons faith in meta-physical beliefs could and does bring benefits to believers.

Regarding what God is, that needs to start with resolving the ageless question, “Who Am I?”

Fact is, I, we, are evolved biological animals, the product of half a billion unbroken years of Earth’s processes.

From the beginning all creatures have required a degree of awareness, processing and action abilities, each according to their individual biological complexity and kind. Ours is simply the most advanced mind, thanks to our incredible evolved body and its experiences.

Still, our thoughts are the interior reflection of our body communicating with itself as it processes incoming information from within and outside. (See Drs. Solms, Damasio, Sapolski, etc. for details) It is our body and brain interacting with physical reality that produces our mind, our sense of self, all our thoughts - collectively our Mindscape.

The inevitable conclusion from the full scope of relevant biological/physical sciences is that consciousness is not a thing, it is an interaction. Our Consciousness is produced in the living moment by our living body.

As with the dynamo that stops producing electricity when it stops spinning - so too when our body stops living, our mind/consciousness ceases to be produced, after that, we become memories within those we leave behind.

It seems to me self-evident from the above that our God’s must be a product of our thoughts, which in turn, are driven by personal biological imperatives, needs, ego, bias, etc.

The Hard Problem is figuring out why such a straightforward observation - that our body/brain interacting with the world produces our mind - is so assiduously avoided.

Our Gods are very real, still we should be very clear, our Gods belong to the meta-physical realm.

Gods are not part of this physical reality that makes up the biology of our bodies, nor the substance of this miracle planet Earth that created us to begin with, along with the rules all of Earth’s nature operates under.

Key concepts: Appreciating the ‘Physical Reality ~ Human Mind divide.’

Appreciating that our living body produces our thoughts, and that our Gods are born from within our own ego-centric thoughts.


The other question discussed was: “Does Morality Require God?”

How can it, if we create our own Gods?

For me, that realization puts the responsibility right back upon us humans, collectively and individually.

Incidentally - AI summary flunked that test.

*As if people didn’t have enough problems - now this AI is going to play total mind F with what’s happening. What could go wrong?

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As for the above, the core is down to 460 words, I think that’s pretty good. Been doing small tweaks over course of the day, but it’s feeling like this years long assignment is resolving itself into a finished product.

It’s solid, it can be ignored, still, it cuts to the chase, as they used to say.
We’ll see how it ages. :wink:

This Friday I attended a day log AI workshop, that was rather interesting. I think one of my bigger lessons was realizing that ChatGPT must be looked at as a personal assistant, one we train and groom according to one’s individual needs and personality.

AI app’s next rules of importance are being thoughtful and creative and proactive with your prompts and instructions, and the liberal use of thereof, meaning one winds up having these back and forth conversations with your personal AI app that would explode Turing’s mind. With result that would blow Einstein’s mind.

We were invited to work with ChatGPT4, so without any prompts I entered my 460 word "Is Belief in God Rational. In other words it was the “collective intelligence” unbiased by my instructions.

You know I had to laugh when ChatGPT4 returned a 1,145 word treatments. Years of refining and trimming, out the window.

But it also highlights one of my complaints about philosophizers, too many words. Sometime we need to break it down into its most basics and allow people to take it from there.

So, I can’t resist sharing because I’ll admit, it still makes for a good read.

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ChatGPT wrote: This is a fascinating and deep topic, and you’ve already laid out a rich framework of ideas.

To create a compelling blog post from your thoughts, we could approach it in a way that blends philosophical inquiry with clear explanations about consciousness, belief, and morality.

Here’s how we could organize it:

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(ChatGPT) Title: Is Belief in God Rational? A Deep Dive Into Consciousness, Faith, and Morality

Introduction: The Question of God and Rationality (1,145 words)

Is belief in God rational? At first glance, this might seem like a straightforward question. But the more we think about it, the more it feels like a trick question—because the very concept of God as a “Thing” is itself a product of belief. God is not a physical entity that can be measured or observed in the way we understand the rest of our material world. Instead, God exists as a belief in the minds of individuals. And if God is a belief in itself, can that belief ever truly be “rational”?

The question leads us to even more profound inquiries: Is faith itself rational? And how does this all relate to the nature of consciousness, our understanding of self, and the creation of morality? Let’s explore these concepts.

What is Belief? The Intersection of Biology, Mind, and Faith

At the core of the question, we must first ask: What is belief? And more importantly, where does belief in God fit within our biological and psychological framework?

Humans are biological beings, the products of millions of years of evolution. From the smallest organisms to our own complex brains, all creatures share a degree of awareness—though ours is far more advanced than most. Our ability to think, reason, and, crucially, to question our existence, is tied to the evolution of our brain and body. The “mind” we experience is not a separate entity; rather, it is the result of our body interacting with physical reality. The mind is the product of these interactions, shaped by the input our bodies receive from the outside world.

This understanding presents a significant challenge to traditional religious views that often place God outside the natural world. If we accept that our mind is an emergent property of our physical body, then it follows that the belief in God must also arise from the same biological processes. In other words, God—the concept of God—is a product of human consciousness, and as such, it is shaped by our biological imperatives, needs, and egos.

Is Faith Rational? The Evolutionary and Societal Benefits of Belief

Now, let’s address the question of whether faith itself is rational. From a strictly biological standpoint, belief systems, including faith in a higher power, likely evolved because they offered pragmatic benefits to individuals and societies. Faith in a higher power can provide comfort, reduce anxiety about death, and encourage social cohesion. In many ways, belief in God served as a way for early human societies to establish rules, foster cooperation, and maintain social order.

From an evolutionary perspective, having a shared belief in a transcendent force can also be seen as a survival mechanism. The community that believes together, stays together, and a unified society is better equipped to face the challenges of survival. So while the belief in God may not be “rational” in the strictest sense (i.e., supported by empirical evidence), it can be rational when viewed through the lens of human evolution and social dynamics.

Who Are We? The Role of Consciousness in Shaping Our Gods

One of the hardest problems in philosophy is the “Hard Problem of Consciousness”—the challenge of understanding how subjective experience arises from physical processes in the brain. When we ask “Who am I?”, we are confronted with a paradox. On the one hand, we are biological creatures, shaped by half a billion years of evolutionary history. On the other hand, we experience a subjective sense of “self,” a mind that reflects on its own existence.

It is this “self” that creates the idea of God. Our minds, influenced by our biological needs, desires, and biases, give rise to the concept of a deity. But this deity is not a “thing” that exists independently of us; rather, it is an abstraction—a belief born from the intersection of our physical body and our thoughts.

To understand the true nature of our “gods,” we must first understand the nature of our own minds. As Dr. Mark Solms, Antonio Damasio, and Robert Sapolsky have pointed out, our consciousness is an interaction—an emergent phenomenon produced by the body as it processes information from the world. The idea of a deity, then, is simply an expression of that process. It is an artifact of our minds, shaped by our experiences, our needs, and our understanding of the world.

Gods Are Real, But They Are Not Physical

Even though our gods are products of the human mind, that doesn’t mean they aren’t real. Our gods are deeply real to those who believe in them. But they belong to the metaphysical realm, not the physical reality that governs the biology of our bodies. The moment we move away from the physical world of cause and effect, we enter a realm of beliefs, symbols, and ideas. These concepts can have real, tangible effects on our behavior and society, even if they are not directly observable or measurable in the way physical phenomena are.

Does Morality Require God?

This brings us to the question of morality. If gods are products of the human mind, how can they be the foundation of moral systems? The answer, I believe, is that morality is a human construct—just as our gods are.

Throughout history, many people have argued that morality requires a divine source. But if we create our own gods, then we also create our own moral frameworks. Morality is not something handed down by a higher power; it is something that evolves from human societies as we negotiate our relationships with one another. We determine what is right or wrong, what is just or unjust, based on our collective experiences and agreements.

In this sense, the responsibility for morality falls squarely on us—not on an external deity, but on human beings, individually and collectively. Our ability to create and uphold moral systems is a testament to our advanced consciousness, our ability to reflect on our actions, and our willingness to work toward a better society.

Conclusion: Embracing the Complexity of Belief and Reality

The question of whether belief in God is rational is not easily answered. It is deeply tied to the nature of human consciousness, the evolutionary roots of belief, and the ways in which we create meaning in our lives. While belief in a higher power may not be rational in a strict, empirical sense, it is a rational adaptation to our biological and social needs.

Ultimately, our beliefs—whether about God, morality, or the nature of existence—are shaped by our minds. Our gods are real in the sense that they live within us, but they are also the products of our thoughts, not physical realities. And as we continue to evolve as individuals and societies, we have the responsibility to shape our beliefs in ways that foster understanding, compassion, and growth.

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ChatGPT added: “How does this structure look to you? Would you like to dive deeper into any particular section, or add more personal anecdotes or examples? We could also adjust the tone to be more casual or formal, depending on your preference.”

Oh the irony, I literally spend years trying to refine and write as succinctly as possible.

It’s spooky. If everyone were good-faith-player it would be awesome, but that’s not how the people within our society are.

2 Likes

AI is good at organizing thoughts, sometimes. The prompts you gave led it in the direction of very recent writing on the topic. I can see a lot of what you say in the ChatGpt output, so I wouldn’t feel like it “fixed” your blog so much as offered a different structure.

My favorite spots are the one about religion being a result of evolution, sort of a step in human growth, and belief as an adaptation.

If I were to “dive deeper” as it suggests, I would say something about adaptations being dysfunctional, or at best temporary side streets on the road to health and happiness. That morality is a construct is just the beginning. Question is, what do we construct it on, or from?

ChatG gave you an answer to a question from the other ongoing thread

Agreed.

We were discussing ‘the rationality’ why would I

Not sure what you’re talking about there, the Chat received the 460 words I wrote, I gave no specific prompt, and “the other ongoing thread” isn’t particularly informative - what other thread?

Seems to me, Chat only had its own past history to go by.

And now you’re trying to write a different essay for me. I’m discussing understanding origins and your words want to make it about the morality and history of religion.
It’s no wonder we’re always at such cross purposes - this has been eye opening.

I was actually musing on striving to write something as succinctly, and to the point, as I could and ChatGPT blows it up to two and half times its original size. That I found fascinating. Now I’m thinking but what did it really achieve for me, create wiggle room in my essay for more misunderstanding to take it down very different alleys, from the road I was traveling.

As Spock would say “fascinating.”

I linked to it. Take your time.

I’m not trying to write anything for you. I’ve been trying to figure what you are talking about for the last year. Where Earth Centrism falls apart, for me, is when you start jumping back and forth between pragmatic issues such as global warming and corporate greed to the “Abrahamic mindset” and other partially defined terms that attempt to describe how we got to where we are. The AI helped develop that, starting with the evolutionary roots, working up to neuroscience, then acknowledging that the questions are not easy precisely because our roots in the earth are connected to the meaning we create.

The AI agrees with you, that our beliefs are shaped by our minds that are part of our bodies. And by “AI”, I mean the synthesis of human knowledge that it is drawing on. Your input didn’t create a philosophy out of nothing, it directed the automated research and came up with a dang decent output.

Earth Centrism has a sort of conclusion,

I believe a genuine understanding of oneself starts with the realization that we are an evolved biological sensing creature, and that our consciousness is fundamentally the inside reflection of your body/brain dealing with itself and the environment/circumstance it is embedded within.

before it starts talking about Descartes and Hoffman and what young people should do. But all of that seems to be circling around morality, instead of addressing it head-on.

ChatGPT does that,

Morality is not something handed down by a higher power; it is something that evolves from human societies as we negotiate our relationships with one another.

and the concluding sentence I quoted earlier.

You can keep going the way you’ve been going, or, paraphrasing the AI; you can contribute to the evolution of societies and negotiate relationships as we reflect on our actions and create our own moral frameworks (which entails acknowledging that we created our own gods).

It pretty straightforward:

Self-absorbed thinking
Self-serving actions

Disregard for understanding Earth and her Evolution.
Believing against all odds one is “God’s chosen” people.

Disregard for how intimately we are woven out of, and into, the fabric of Earth’s biological-geological dance.

Disregard for the reality that our consciousness is produced by our physical body/brain interacting with life.

Disregarding that consciousness is an interaction of the biological moment - with the outer cosmos having no need for consciousness.

Explicitly understanding/appreciating that our Gods are created from within our thoughts.

This is the framework through which I view reality.

And given how much of what I’ve been told throughout my life turned out to be deluded nonsense - and how much of my gut level questions and fears turned out to be spot on in hindsight, I no longer doubt myself as I used to.

Doubting yourself is one thing. Having no opening for any feedback is another. AI gathers the knowledge of the universe and you brush it off.

Where did that come from?
Am I supposed to worship AI?

On the other hand, do you think AI is going to save us?

We don’t even understand ourselves enough to nurture critical thinking habits, and now we think AI will fix the problems our all around greed and obtuseness has created?

How is AI going to help us deal with the MAGA billionaires and their nasties as they dismantle our country’s government in the next couple years?

What is AI going to do to deal with the malicious people who possess hatred and revenge lust and “burn it down” in their hearts?

Profits Über Alles, they cry, and then it will our turn.

It’s a mere definition. It’s doing what we program it do. Nothing about worship at all. And, yes, there are dangers. Different thread.

A reasonable report. A summary is at the end.

Current undebated capabilities include helping humans write code, maintaining coherent conversations, and solving textbook math and science questions. Whether there has been significant progress on fundamental challenges such as causal reasoning is debated among researchers.

Examining the capabilities and risks of advanced AI systems.

I would add, the ability to read news, science, and other sources and synthesize them. Sometimes it goes off track.

???

Yes, unless something goes off track.

This report underscores the necessity for broader global cooperation in defining AI risks and developing robust mitigation solutions.

As the U.K. government prepares for the final report to be published ahead of the AI Action Summit in France in February 2025, there is the need for a concerted effort to improve international cooperation** in AI, **particularly by including governments, researchers, and civil society advocates from the Global South.

Equitable inclusion of diverse perspectives will be crucial to contend with the risks and harms from AI and democratize the benefits of these systems.

Well now I feel better,
they must be on top of it.

Just look at the progress we’ve made on those items of the past few decades. Look at the vandals & white supremest, and people who are convinced they have God Almighty in their back pockets (and damn the rest) - that we just gave our government over too.

I’m glad you are feeling optimistic.

I’m thinking of following inthedarkness and just shutting down

How did I do that?

I’ve shared that I attended a day long teach in and have used it occasionally myself, so I take it seriously enough to learn about.

I have spoken with a couple friends who have integrated it into their work - Quite literally within the past couple months.

The one guy is mud specialist/foreman on drilling rigs, a dynamic challenging situation because most all drilling goes through varying layers of rock, each with specific properties and pressures and what not. Tons to track, though computers are doing that these days. It also entails essaying fluids on the run, for various required physical properties to keep the mud flowing and to accomplishing its various function, to test results of adjustments. Pressure, lubrication, flushing, cleaning, and such.

He used to spend a lot of time going from his lab bench, to reference the many data sheets and specific formulas to solve specific challenges, and so and so forth.

Now he has entered all these data sheets, and formula sheets, lab results in his AI tool, listening to him describe I pictured those sci fi videos where data pops up on floating overhead displays, and with appropriate hand swipes (instructions), watch the various screens meld together then produce an outcome. It has totally revolutionized his work days out on the oil patch. And he’s already envisioning how to advance and focus on other important issues, for which there simply wasn’t the time before.

Other has streamlined her HR and accounting duties, no more look up tax codes and obscure laws, her personal AI tool (which is the way to think of it, we tailer it to our needs) is plugged into all of that, and now it knows what to do with the data, because of how she’s instructed it.

And it’s dynamic, constantly updating to changing expectations, when prompted.

It’s utterly mind boggling what AI is capable of. Talk about achieving our goal of being God, this is it.

I don’t brushed off AI, but I am terrified and expect it to bite us.

We as a species are not mature enough, lacking forethought, introspective, empathetic toward others, recognition for our utter dependence on healthy biosphere and planet Earth - - - to operate such an ultimate intelligence machine (so long as the power is on).

I’m saying we aren’t ready for it.

Back to the local AI event,
Well over a hundred participated with a couple dozen presenters, a lot of excitement and Oh Wow, but at the end of every discuss (even some presentations) I’ve been around, there’s also that sense of terror - oh god what have we created this time.

Gotta use it to keep up, but where is it taking us?

Not sure what this one means.

And why mention philosophers at this point? Are you referring to the thousand+ words from the ChatGPT?

Not sure what your issue is here either.

This one doesn’t seem to be responding to the ChatGPT output either.

I liked the conclusion of the ChatGPT, about working together with people to build a moral world, instead of trying to contact god(s).

Yeah, so, you’re dismissing the suggestion from Chat. It suggested, instead of looking to gods for guidance, we do the work.

I could add some comments about how your words aren’t succinct or to the point (Your list in post #9 is a good place to review), but I’ll save that for later. I think your input was a great start, despite what I just said, and AI helped you organize it and found a possible trajectory for where it’s pointing, where you could take it.

Oh dear, I’m sorry, that was commenting on one specific task. I offered a succinct piece of writing and AI ballooned it with filler and what I read as distractions.

From my perspective there’s already too much handwaving and too little sorting out of the simplest fundamentals and then working up from there.


That said, even the experts are fearful of the reality that AI invites a human nightmare, since we aren’t mature or emotionally intelligent enough to use in moderation.

Remember bad people, hateful people, ruthless gluttonous sociopaths have as much access to AI as nice moral minded people. If that isn’t something to be scared of . . . .

Power corrupts, ultimate power corrupts ultimately.


I know you liked AI suggestions, such as perhaps delving deeper into the evolution of religious thought, but from where I’m coming from those specifics are trivial.

For me the main point is getting into a frame of mind that allows one to recognize themselves as the evolved biological animals we are, and from their to better appreciate our intimate interwoven connections with this singular Earth of ours and her biosphere and other creatures.

Jumping to ‘evolution of religion’ takes us right back within our ego dominated human mind.

What I’m after is focusing on a better appreciation of our biology and connection to natural biological processes.

I’m tempted to take comment #9 and make it the OP to a new thread, since I’d love to rake over that piece of writing. But gotta run, chores to catch up on.

I didn’t see anything you did or asked or AI that said it should be a summary, or that it should be shorter. It’s introduction started off as if the request to was explore the question and bring some structure to your input.

Yep. Different thread of the topic though.

Which is very similar to my comment, that you “dismissed” it.

Well yeah, but you ask about capital G God. There’s also a definition problem I think you and I have, that is, I include Dawkin’s memes in our evolution. Memes are transferred down the generations with story and song, those cross over with religion. You don’t have to go back very far to the time when culture and religion were inseparable. Our story now is The Big Bang and evolution by natural selection.

I know. Sometimes I ask, “when am I going to retire from this retirement?”

What else is new?

I was talking about my experience, not what your impression of it is.

What do you mean it’s a “different thread” the threat is woven into every aspect of the whole dang project.

I’ve explained my understanding of religion plenty - and religion is trivial when it comes to appreciating our origins and primal reality of us evolved human biological creatures. THAT IS NOT TO SAY RELIGION ITSELF IS TRIVIAL! Just that it belongs to a different thread, so to speak.

Doesn’t matter if I use upper case or lower case - God and Religion are products of the human mind and human experience.

Reminds me of my question, that some real philosophers refuse to touch: How does an assumption become a being?

That is it what makes our chosen god a God?

You think?
Seems to me that our actually relevant story is our self-absorbed nature and our self-serving actions.
Our obsession with playing God, and or gluttony which is destroying the planet’s biosphere that we depend on for everything.

Why because the powers that be are pro-actively destroying ourselves, society and planet.

Amen :heartpulse:

Although today’s chore will be sublime for me, spending the day with my own baby daughter and her baby daughter (almost 6 mo.) and watching how ego is starting to creep into her biological body. Well it’s been doing that since day one, but now we can start noticing it.

As personality begins to develop.

Back to “God” - thinking about granddaughter, daughter, wife, wombie, mother, grandmother, etc. Inevitable my thinking turns to feeling of being blessed by the universe.

As I keep up on the amazing biological micro-videos scientist keep producing and out wowing us with - again the sense of a something the grand mystery, I’ve showered it with my thanksgiving and so on,

The harmony and direction of my life, the feather falling from the sky, subject to … The great mystery. I am aware of that.

But then come our translations of that into god/God, with its various potential tools, for organizing a society of many competing people, always competing, always fearful.

What’s that tell about an individual?

Perceiving life’s ultimate questions and answers in terms of the Great Mystery.

As opposed to thinking in terms of a personal God, as one’s ally against a harsh world.