Referring to ill-considered praise for Donald Trump, TimB writes, “Cue up the hero music with an orchestra of kazoos” I love that line and fully intend to steal it.No need to steal it. You have purchased it with your praise.
Since psychology is mentioned in the title of this thread an observation may be worth noting. Has anyone ever noticed a surprising number or rather “disproportionate” number of immigrants who come to this country sometimes adopt the most conservative, anti-immigrant, rightward leaning “pro-American” views or what they perceive to be “pro-American” views? Sociologists would rightly suggest that this phenomenon is actually more rooted in the newcomer’s desire to seem as “true blue” as any right-wing ideologue thereby neutralizing any criticism of their foreign origin. It’s vaguely similar to what’s called the "Stockholm syndrome where hostages come to identify and to some extent agree with their captors. This psychologically defensive identification with those who can harm them is basically an attempt at self-protection and quickly ends when they regain their freedom. In the same vein, some (not all) new immigrants adopt the same attitudes of those who are sharply critical of new arrivals to our country to say in effect “I agree with you, I’m on your side, don’t target me with your hateful speech.”
Newcomers who adopt these ultra-conservative views often say they’ve come from countries where authoritarianism and state power is heavy-handed and they’re simply expressing their love for American freedom.
As Shakespeare tells us men are often “not the banners they go under.”
I’ve found that people tend to avoid comparing themselves and their loved ones to the people they have deemed evil or bad in some way, even if it is exactly comparable.
For example, on Penn & Teller’s Bullshit! once there was a redneck from Mississippi who was railing against welfare. He hated welfare. We needed to get rid of it. The liberals who want welfare should all be shot. But then they pointed out that he was on food stamps. His response was, “Well, yeah, but I think I deserve that because I ran out of unemployment”. Not only did he not see any irony in that, he didn’t see himself as a welfare recipient. He was exactly the people he was railing against. But in his mind he was different because, unlike all the welfare recipients he hadn’t met and didn’t know, he deserved it.
My brain doesn’t work that way so I’m not entirely sure how the mindset works, but I would bet it has something to do with seeing people as a group instead of individuals. When this guy was railing against welfare recipients it was the group he hated. But he saw himself as an individual, along with anyone he knew personally. And the individuals he knows and loves are obviously not a part of this evil group.
Republicans have actually used this mind trick for decades to get people to vote against their own interests. When we imagine one of these groups we actually tend to build a picture of an individual in our heads with all of the worst traits of the group. It’s a vague image of a generic person, but with a few traits we associate with that group. And if you’re good at it, you can build that picture in a person’s head without actually ever explicitly stating the characteristics the people in this group have. For example, when you think “welfare mom” you instantly picture a black woman in your head. Republicans never specifically said that all welfare moms were black women, but you knew who they were talking about in the '90s, so that’s the picture in your head. And I’m pretty sure they’ve actually done this on purpose. If you want to manipulate the majority the easiest way to do it is to create a villain in their heads who is nothing like them. But although “Operation Terrify Whitey” is still very much in effect, black people aren’t as small a minority as they once were. So they dumped the “welfare mom” thing and they’re now focusing on “illegals”. The Hispanic population is rising rapidly too, but the ones who can vote, they don’t fit in this group, so they may not see it as an attack on them. Attacking blacks has turned into a shit-show come election day. I think Romney got 8% of the black vote. So they changed tactics. Now they’re targeting people who can’t vote, still terrifying Whitey that they are voting anyway and trying to reduce the number of black people who vote, but without openly stigmatizing them any more.
So yeah, some of this is by design. I don’t think people understand just how much thought and expertise goes into the behind-the-scenes Republican strategy. Gerrymandering, voter suppression, fear mongering, court nominations…it’s really an all-out war on democracy behind the scenes for these people.
Has anyone ever noticed a surprising number or rather “disproportionate” number of immigrants who come to this country sometimes adopt the most conservative, anti-immigrant, rightward leaning “pro-American” views or what they perceive to be “pro-American” views?I have a friend from Peru who became a US citizen. He voted for the t rump and last I spoke to him about politics, he was an avid t rump supporter. That was before the plague and the economic collapse and the racial unrest. But I would not be surprised to find that he is still a t rump supporter.
It is sad that his first vote as an American citizen was for our narcisistic, flim-flamming, washed-up-vaudeville-actor-in-chief, the t rump.
For example, when you think “welfare mom” you instantly picture a black woman in your head.
I don’t. I really don’t get a picture of any woman in particular. My husband says he didn’t when I read your statement to him. If you do, I wonder what it says about you.
Well, Mriana, I am a white man who is not married to a bi-racial woman, and I know exactly who the RepugLIARS are referring to when they use the term “welfare queen”. They are referring to a mythical hoard of black women who have gamed the system to get rich from government programs.
What that says about all who get the picture of a black woman when the term “welfare queen” is used, is that blatant racism still exists systemically in the USA.
I don’t. I really don’t get a picture of any woman in particular. My husband says he didn’t when I read your statement to him. If you do, I wonder what it says about you.I first heard the term in the mid '90s to early '00s when I was working with a bunch of Republicans, one a state representative. I knew exactly who he was talking about when he talked about the women who had babies to collect welfare so they didn't have to work. What it says about me, I would like to think, is that I understood the message that they were pushing loud and clear.
I did a little research. Check out the Wikipedia page for “welfare queen”.
Since then, the phrase "welfare queen" has remained a stigmatizing label and is most often directed toward black, single mothers.And then there's https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/image-of-typical-welfare-recipient-linked-with-racial-stereotypes.html which has this to say (in the headline).
Image of ‘Typical’ Welfare Recipient Linked With Racial StereotypesAnd the first sentence of the article:
When thinking about a welfare recipient, people tend to imagine someone who is African American and who is lazier and less competent than someone who doesn’t receive welfare benefits, according to new findings in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science.Sorry to double-post on the subject, but the accusation of racism wasn't exactly subtle and, being a white man, I very much feel the need to say, "I'm not with those assholes." I am also self-aware enough to realize that I am not completely free of racist thoughts and ideas, but I WANT to be. So when one of those old nuggets from my upbringing shows up in my psyche and I recognize it for what it is I work hard to squash it. And yes, that does happen. I do hear a story about a crime and immediately thing "black guy" once in a while. But then I catch it and remind myself that is a racist thought which is unacceptable. I can't stop my mind from popping out random thoughts which are a product of my upbringing. But I can still be a good person if I am self-aware enough to notice those thoughts when the pop up and care enough about my fellow man to take a moment to be ashamed of that thought to retrain my brain to be less of a dick.
I’m not perfect. If you are, good for you. I’d love to hear your secret. But I’m no racist. That doesn’t mean that I am completely devoid of all racist thoughts, ideas and stereotypes. I have them and I suspect a good percentage of us do. What it means is that I don’t want the ones that I have and I’m willing to admit when I find one because I can’t kill it unless I first admit that it’s there. It’s not an easy or comfortable thing to admit to oneself, much less others. But in the shadows is where the cockroaches live, so I’m happy to shine a light on them. And not just a light on your cockroaches. My own as well.
In this case, however, it was a commentary on the image other people built in my head. I was not saying that I think of people on welfare as being black women. I was saying that was the image which the term evokes and that image is by design. “People on welfare” is not the same as the term “welfare mom”, which is a specific trope of a woman who has children for the sole purpose of collecting welfare so that she doesn’t have to work.
It is almost impossible in our world, and our society for us humans to avoid developing racial biases. I think that to the extent that we are aware of these, or become aware of these, and confront these, as you profess to do, then I think we’re doing pretty good.
Racial bigotry relies on the mind’s tendency to think in categories. Most human error stems from lumping new challenges and experiences into old paradigms that are inappropriate and even dangerous. Race hatred is exhibit A. There are many who are quite sure they hate others of a different race even if they’ve never encountered a person of different ethnicity. Deep rural areas of this country are an example. Race hatred is learned usually by and through family members. I’m very fortunate to have had parents who never, I mean not one single time used the N word. Consequently, I never internalized the mental poison of racial bigotry.
I must give Widdershins credit in saying he wants to improve in this aspect of his life, though I think he’s not a person who harbors racial animus. In saying we “want” to be free of this form of ignorance, we are free of it. When the Chinese sage was asked by a novice how we can conquer evil in the world he said, “evil can never be driven from the world. It can only be resisted in oneself,” and so it is with racial bigotry. We must be on our guard at all times to resist the meretricious lure of being pulled into conversations that by stealth invite us to see others as less than human. It’s not poor mothers struggling to survive that waste taxpayer money. It’s the welfare queens at the pentagon who bleed this country to the tune of two thousand million dollars a day, every day. Check the numbers.
@timb Yes, it is most definitely blatant racism. I could see that, but that doesn’t mean everyone gets that picture in their head when they hear such words. Stereotypes are rarely true though. Also, I didn’t grow up hearing a lot of racist words, because, growing up in a religious family, uttering such words were “a sin” and still after all these years as an adult, I really don’t know many of them still. I do know a very small handful and have heard the words “welfare queen”, but that could be a white woman too, so I really don’t get a picture of colour in my head. You’re talking to a woman who had to turn to her first husband, when she was married to him, and ask what a certain racial slur a white friend of his said. I forget the word now, if I remember it had something to do with some Asian group. That said, I won’t deny that I have some racial bias, which comes out every time I see a cute little dark complected baby or toddler or maybe that’s being partial, I don’t know. I was very sheltered, but I do know racism when I see or hear it.
@widdershins Actually, there are a lot of white people on welfare too, not just black women.
Race hatred is learned usually by and through family members. I’m very fortunate to have had parents who never, I mean not one single time used the N word. Consequently, I never internalized the mental poison of racial bigotry.
Exactly! It is learned and I have a feeling you understand exactly what I’m saying in this post. Did we grow up in the same house? lol
We know from Mary Trump (segueing back to the thread topic) that the t rump grew up in a family where racist references were so common that they took place regularly without anyone giving them a second thought.
Now we see a “man” who can’t seem to buy a clue as to the reality of systemic racial bias in our society.
I try not to be a person who harbors racial animus. But the way I see it, the moment I say, “I’m totally never, ever racist” that’s the moment I become part of the problem again. I have seen so many people say, “I’m not racist, but…”, which always means they’re about to say something utterly racist. I can never know what minorities have gone through, especially the black man. It is beyond my experience to have more than a glimmer of understanding. The same goes for the LGBT community. I can hear the stories of the suffering they’ve endured, but I can never truly understand it. So many people think that they aren’t racist. My mom doesn’t have a racist bone in her body…she just thinks that people shouldn’t marry outside of their “tribe” like it says in the Bible. I refuse to fall into that trap where I coddle myself into believing that because I want to be a good person, I am.
Actually, there are a lot of white people on welfare too, not just black women.Absolutely! I live in a poor, redneck community. I've known more people on welfare than I've met black people! That includes my family growing up. And my family after my wife and I had kids. We've gotten food stamps, fuel assistance, medical care and reduced price school lunches for our kids. Never did I intend to say that there was any truth whatsoever to the "welfare mom" idea. In fact, anyone who has ever had kids on welfare knows full well that a kid costs a LOT more than the help you can get. If there is such a thing as an actual "welfare mom", which I am suspicious of, such a person would be rare because most people want more out of life.
Another Republican belief is that there is a disproportionately high percentage of black people are welfare recipients, which is probably true, but not for the reasons they see. They see it as evidence that black people are lazy and don’t want to work, which is where the “welfare mom” trope comes from. The reality is that blacks are the most economically disadvantaged people in America, so of course the poorest people get the most help.
I live in a poor, redneck community. I’ve known more people on welfare than I’ve met black people!What strikes me is that the demographic of uneducated whites, who could be MOST helped by the Progressive Movement, vote against it and FOR the likes of the t rump, who could give a crap about them, except for the adulation and votes they provide for HIM.
There is disparity in justice and economic reward for all in persons in the lower socioeconomic brackets in the USA. The t rump will never repair that.
Back on topic. A new development.
Former Judge Maryanne Trump Barry, 83 year old big sister of the t rump, was unknowingly taped. She revealed some candid feelings, beliefs, and critical observations about her brother.
Earlier in this thread, Mary Trump, the niece who wrote the book “Too Much and Never Enough” was said by a t rump supporter to be discounted in her opinions due to her own conflicts with the family.
Now in the tapes we hear the big sister saying the same things. But she doesn’t know that she is being recorded.
So Now, the t rump apologists’ talking point is that the older sister’s statements should be discounted due to the natural occurrence of “sibling rivalry”.
Really? An 82 year old woman has a sibling rivalry with her 75 year old brother?
How about she just happens to have some reality based opinions about her brother’s doings?
Please check out the thread about “Judge Maryanne Trump said…” when it gets posted. (I put 2 site references in the opening post so it is in limbo at the moment.)
To Widdershins,
I agree with you that it’s an ongoing struggle to see everyone we meet as fully human and fully entitled to all the rights and protections that every American enjoys. I’ve never had a problem seeing and treating any who’ve come or whose parents have come from a different part of world. People of different racial backgrounds have always been interesting to me because of their different experiences. You’re also right in stating that Americans “generally speaking” don’t seem to be able to grasp the enormously consequential effects of centuries of slavery and institutional racism in this country. It starts with language and in this day and time, it continues with language, a language that is racialized. The word white was never meant to describe a human being. I’ve never seen a white man or woman in my life and never will. Clouds are white, milk is white, cotton is white, snow is white, but not humans. I’ve never seen a black man or woman. I’ve seen dark brown humans but not black. Every human being on this planet is a varied collection of hues that is mostly and overwhelmingly brown. We’re all brown or some slight variation from this basic color. When a man calls himself “white” he’s usually saying “I’m superior” which is a falsehood. White suggests purity and virtue, while black suggests something less. There are no “whites” and “blacks” just humans who’ve let the stealth bigotry of racialized language mislead them into thinking their different from each other. The differences are real but they’re differences in individual character and temperament. Skin color looms large only in the province of a weak mind.
To TimB
Thanks for making the point that Mary Trump didn’t know she was taped. I wondered about that when I heard her describing the specimen.
Any family member would have conflicts with a creature like the orange one. He’s a horrible thing, which no words can describe well enough.
“Pathetic” is about the most accurate word I can think of. If you truly think about it he’s really kind of a sad individual. He has never known love. Nobody has ever loved him, he has never loved anyone else. He has gone his entire life without ever understanding what love truly is. He’s a bit like Hitler. Grown-up Hitler was a monster, but you have to feel sorry for little-kid Hitler, which is what made him a monster. The same for Trump. One look at that douchey face, especially in his youth, and one thought about his entitled attitude his entire life and you forget that he wasn’t born a douche. He was brought up that way.