What’s the one big change you’d expect to actually happen?

I received a private message that seems like a public comment, perhaps they wanted to stay anonymous. I don’t want to engage in a discussion via private messages, so I’m posting it here, see if anyone else wants to add anything.

On climate, I’ve always looked at things from a consequence-first angle.

So here’s a question for you: if the data keeps showing ocean heat going up (or crop yields dropping, or pollinators dying off), what’s the one big change you’d expect to actually happen?

What do I expect to actually happen? Given todays’ trends, then looking at the people who hold the levers of power, I don’t see any turning back, we’re on a highway to hell. Black Swan events, of a bewildering range will bring cascading consequences beyond our imagining. While the survivors do the best they can, as the world becomes increasingly fragmented, and so on.

Sorry I’m busted, feeling pessimistic, my sanity is only saved by a high degree of fatalism. (oh and also a solidly grounded sense of self).

  • but on the bright side

Could be government policy, energy investment, farming, whatever.

For humanity to pull their heads out of their keisters.

Recognize ourselves for who we are.
Recognizing the importance of our Earth and nature and dare I say ecology and ecospheres and other creatures, not to mention the room for people to breathe.

I’m curious what you’d point to as the next logical step.

Truly deeply emotionally recognizing oneself for the evolved creature that we are.

Recognize that our biology/body/brain is the cumulative product of over half a billion years. And that it matters!
While your consciousness is the product of your body/brain living life, the interior reflection of your body communicating with itself. And that this basic formulation of, Body + Brain + Interaction (interior & exterior) = consciousness, has been life’s imperative, each to their own kind, since the beginning. We are all inter-related and inter-dependent.

This awareness changes one’s attitude towards oneself - especially one’s expectations, and priorities. Not to mention landing one’s feel on solid ground, too many religions and sciencie people keep looking for some “meaning” in the heavens, that os backwards, counterproductive.

Instead of seeing Earth as a thing to suck dry - investing in nurturing each other and our living Earth, thereby the future, becomes a self-evident priority - whereas now the profits of a tiny elite takes top priority over everything, and everyone. That’s insane.

Recognizing how incredibly self-absorbed and self-serving we human beings are. But it’s not a melodrama of right and wrong. Biologically every creature is self-absorbed and self-serving, so there is that. This realization demands some serious soul searching that for all the talkers out there, no one really wants to do. Because no one wants to face it, the no bruised ego rule.

On climate, I’ve always looked at things from a consequence-first angle.

Me too, and I’ve been witness through the 60s, then 70s, 80s, … There was public education, learning about what science was learning about our impact on this planet that created and sustains us. … the money learned how to brainwash the masses like never before.

It could have been different, had there been any real interest in learning about ourselves and our origins, how we are intimately tied to the rest of this Earthly creation around us, that’s been unfolding for billions and hundreds of millions of years, one day at a time. If only more would have paid attention, but a sense of entitlement and Having More Stuff became God. Without an end to that, nothing can change. Locked and loaded.

It would have made a difference to truly realize and absorb how we humans may be one credible animal, but still, we are made of the same stuff as other animals around us, and in learning about our heritage and interrelations, we learn a lot more about ourselves.

Then, … perhaps, we could have learned to be happy with less flash & bang and stuff.

I don’t know what goes on inside other people, I myself have a personal relationship with the natural landscapes and creatures, an emotional connection that matters to me like my own human family {which actually consists of a number of circles of families, with relations on every imaginable level - in a reality where blood matters, still in the real world, it’s making memories that creates those precious family bonds.} My circles of connection keep going past the humans in my life, out into the wider world of this miracle planet Earth and the places I’ve been blessed to be a part of.

Short answer, same as it ever was:
Change our way of thinking - seeking moderation - sharing a little, finding contentment in life rather than the endless race to accumulate more stuff (and to being a bigger big shot than the next guy).

But we want more, more, more. So solutions will remain out of reach, runaway technology can’t fix, the problems runaway technology created.

As useful as saying thoughts and prayers and more thoughts

We are all inter-related and inter-dependent.

I think this points to nourishing a loving relationship between your mind and living individuals, regardless of their mind. If your mind is respectful of your own interdependence and interrelatedness, it must be respectful of every other living individual’s interrelatedness and interdependence.

This includes the self, the environment, and other humans and animals.

This includes also enemies, liars, criminals, etc.

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You don’t get it.

We’re past useful, now it’s a matter of getting right with ourselves, because that will dictate how ugly we make the inevitable increasing ecological and economic and civic upheavals.

I’m not going to pretend we can suddenly turn this tanker around on a dime, we foolish humans have created something that at this point is unstoppable. Earth plays on time scales of decades, centuries, millennia, etc Momentum can’t be wished away.

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Responding to my penpal:

Thanks for the kind words. I’m doing well, reached 70, with all sorts of people in my life, especially a sweet wife, sibs, and a few grandkids who matter, I live in and am privy to a most excellent 40 acre piece of land near on 14 years now. I’ve acquired a feeling of accomplishment regarding my goals and prospects at 18. The increasing food prices aren’t strangling us, and the well, running hot and cold water, flush toilet, and shower still function, so all is good in my heart. I dreamed of the heroic journey and didn’t disappoint when I was called on, I have achieved a fascinating life’s story of my own - which is about all I wanted, that is to figure it out who I was and what life, and women, were all about.
So many lives experienced and grand questions resolved, so many sweet memories of times and people with mini epiphanies one after another. Now, I’m old and can reflect while taking care of this cabin, garden, water, firewood, fire mitigation, my doggy, my wife (and she takes care of me), and my days are literally like a religious experience, I am here, timeless in the moment, so, so, so, appreciative of how it worked out and the fears & dreams of this snot-nosed Chicago kid, - where I’ve been and where I get to sit in the morning or evening and appreciate that I’ve arrived, and it is good.

So I’m doing as well as can be, then I look at the world beyond my own horizons and am appalled and terrified. En mass people have been a monstrous disappointment. Heads down, getting on with getting on, praying we get through this next day (just like me). The beautiful little people in my life will inherit a horror show and most are totally oblivious and disinterested. That’s tough to digest, and I can face it only in small doses.

So it’s quite the cognitive dissonance dance I live. “What will you be present to?” is as important as the serenity prayer. What’s saddest is that once I was surrounded by people who loved discussion and sharing and debating, curious and hungry to learn - now decades of corporate orchestrated brainwashing that has all really shriveled up. Community matters but I don’t see it happening anymore, . . .

Still waiting to find someone who can actually relate to what I’m trying to discuss enough to have substantive discussion.

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You dont get it. I am therefore i think means by changing the social conditions of men and women, their consciousness is transformed not vice versa.

That was one of the basis of Marxism .

Materialism: the matter is all, the conscience of the man, his spirit are not separated from his body. The thoughts of the men are born from their material conditions of existence, of their place in the process of production of the tangible properties. (Process meaning the methods and proceedings of production). The capitalist system controls the ideological production and the ideology of the dominant class constitutes the dominant ideology.

An ideology is a system of ideas, of representation which translates the vision of the world by the individuals. The man is alienated because it is dispossessed of his labor force, exploited, because is reduced to the statute of good, because his conscience of the world is distorted by the dominant ideology. In fact, he is not any more owner of himself.

But the link was never seen as rigid and automatic.

The social and material conditions set up cultural patterns, but theses patterns can be influenced upon.

Gramsci showed that there is a cultural war and the importance of waging it.

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The biggest change will be Liberal Democracy being dead and buried in a few generations – if that.

Who says? It can work in both directions.

Besides the usefulness of, I am, therefore I Think, is first and foremost about better conceptualizing the individual being.

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… If we only expect people to change their nature, we risk creating strategies that feel right but don’t actually move the needle.

I think the challenge is finding routes that bring different types of people into the fold — even the stubborn ones — so the outcome is effective, not just ideal. To me, that’s where real progress happens.

You think that’s going to be the biggest change? My what quaint horizons you possess. Not to mention that dripping sense of grievance and schadenfraude you luxuriate in. :face_blowing_a_kiss: Enjoy it while you can.

Back down here on Earth there are changes afoot.

An international team of more than 200 researchers have contributed to this report, which was initiated at a conference on tipping points in September 2022. (See Carbon Brief’s coverage of the event.)

The Earth is on a “disastrous trajectory” with “no adequate global governance” to deal with the scale of threats posed by climate tipping points, warns a major new report.

These tipping points “pose some of the gravest threats faced by humanity”, according to the authors.

They identify more than 25 tipping points across the Earth system, ranging from ice-sheet collapse to rainforest dieback.

“Five major tipping points are already at risk of being crossed due to warming right now and three more are threatened in the 2030s as the world exceeds 1.5C global warming,” the report finds. …

… The authors of the report support a proposal – currently under consideration – for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to prepare a special report on the topic of tipping points.

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I saw something recently, I need to go back and find it, that idealism is the enemy. It leads to extremes, to putting aside basic decency in the name of achieving the ideal.

This was it I think

No. Its the material world around us that shapes our thinking not the other way

The beautiful little people in my life will inherit a horror show and most are totally oblivious and disinterested.”

Consciousness of the material conditions and concern would come if instead of daily news segments on the stockmarket we had global climate ecosystem health reports , meteorologists allowed to explain the link with extreme and changing weather pattern to climate change, climate scientists given prime time to criticise governments on climate policy, news media reporting on what communities around the world are doing to fight climate change, grassroots climate activism promoted and allowed to thrive, media personalities allowed to say the words - its a climate emergency -WITH FULL PAGE ADS SAYING THIS!!!

All this cant happen under capitalism. Thats my personal development in the real, conscious freedom to not just understand but act on it.

Both are not contradictory.

I answered to you with some ideas. You may answer.

If we only expect people to change their nature, we risk creating strategies that feel right but don’t actually move the needle.

I agree with you on your understanding of our ultimate interconnectedness all other life on the planet.

I think on this point, though, it’s important to explore what being a moral/ethical person truly means and moving a way from an ethical discussion which is rooted in political discourse.

We can move the needle by discussing what it means to be good in everyday life to everyday people. Meeting people where they are and discussing life, and the problems which arise in it, through a moral lens, in lieu of a political one. Though it makes a small instantaneous difference, it creates a large wave and new way of thinking, when large amounts of people act with love.

This tackles the problem of going down paths which are out-of-reach and then become destructive and violent. Being destructive and violent is just never something that is required in everyday life, except for the most dire of situations (this is something else which carries an interesting moral discussion).

The largest problems with our culture is that people who have the reach to make large-scale changes fail to act with love. They are self-serving as you say. That’s acceptable to our culture. Our culture is a self-serving one as well. However, our individual reach is so small and limited. People who do not have platforms or shows or books or political positions can make very little change. Changing how we treat people, judge people, love people is something that is within the common man’s reach and can change the world. A individual nobody guy shrieking on the internet about the story of the day is not something that can change the world.

What’s something I can do in my everyday life to treat the life in this world a bit better? We all can start there and I believe our interconnected nature points the arrow there as the way.

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The working class is divided . The rich thrive when this happens .If you’re divided, you will lose. You will spend your time fighting each other and the rich will take everything. You’re going to need each other. Don’t forget that.

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This is a division itself which can be broken down by individual connection. Even the rich might see the good direction.

I agree though. Spend time connecting, not dividing.

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So you don’t include your biological body as part of the material world???

At this point I didn’t see how he has anything but a tautology. Nothing is separate. This is Hawking’s proof for why time travel is impossible. You can’t take one piece out and displace it into another time, the necessary particles aren’t there to build it. A body can’t take the place of the air particles where in time it’s attempting to land. So, sure, material around us shapes us, and we’re a big bag of material, made up of material.

Or, think of the bad proof of a creator, the one about if you find a watch, someone made it. But if you say that about humans, then what made the stuff we’re made of, what made the universe, it’s all watches.

Absolutely right. Now, try saying it as if you are one of the people who needs others. You’d think it’d be easy, since you are. But it’s kind of hard to admit.

Try holding a baby and doing everything else you need to do.

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Thats the plan. Keep the natives busy , require they undertake multiple employment to survive, fill their heads with trivial matters and make them care about it , distract attention by giving them sport as an outlet for their troubles, tell them enemy is the foreigner. No time to organise, no time to reflect. No time for revolutionary thoughts.

Inequality is the drum that must be banged