It is the biggest change because it definitely will happen – and it will happen in the lifetime of people alive now.
Whatever climate change leads is vague, and will take place after the progressives are dead.
What year do you think it is?
The class struggle is long over and the rich won.
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That’s completely not what you said before. You said we need each other
It must be true. You said so
Sold out ? When are they coming for you
I did. I agreed with you. Then I asked you to think about how that applies to you. Then you changed the subject like a bot/troll.
You take it to this happy land when you want to wriggle out of the conversation
I don’t call what we’re doing “conversation”
One way conversation. The other way is a time waster energy drainer
I wish I could sell out to somebody.
Back to the private message. I figure nothing happening here so, . . . why not share some rambling.
==================================================
Because to me, beliefs can be comforting, but they’re meaningless if they don’t stand up to reality.
Exactly, the key question is what’s more important:
One’s ego,
or
An honest understanding?
I have chosen an honest understanding, thank’s to the family that raised me, coupled with certain inherited passions. It’s not easy, since we are so often gullible and mistaken. We can only learn by gathering more information and understanding - often that means dealing with the cognitive dissonance between stuff I had believed, learned, based on facts, and rational arguments, was wrong.
I was wrong, argggh. I was also a silly innocent, lots of mistakes along the way. Oh, but the lessons learned, and reevaluations and time. Seek and yet shall find.
Whether it was freewill, gender, or politics, my instinct is to strip away emotion and ask, ‘what’s actually true?’
The relativity of our own concerns comes into play. Each of us is the center of our universe, as we know it. Which has brought me to the conviction that “Truth” is meaningless without defining specific parameters. “This is so and so, within the context of such and such.”
That’s why I try to constantly question myself to avoid falling into the traps of emotion or manipulation.
Be careful, constantly questioning can devolve into questions for the sake of questions, and contrarianism. We need to learn from the answers our questions receive, and grow.
The details of life can get devilishly impossibly complex, but I’ve found it follows consistent patterns that are straightforward and come with some bedrock fundamentals all else wraps around.
Simple things like evolving this truly deep, emotional awareness & appreciation that I inhabit a body that has literally been handed down to the next generation for near on 600 million years. I mean my insides, outsides, knowledge and behavior embodies that evolutionary pageant. And I’m blessed with the education to support my appreciate of the physical reality of that, like no other generation before. That is Truth with a capital T. Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide.
For instance, developing my bedrock foundational understanding has transformed my relationship with myself. That is, the relationship between my thoughts (mind) and my body (including its many impulses, that often has my body (matter) doing something quite different from my thoughtful plans and expectations (mind).
It has also transformed and deepened my appreciation for the landscapes and creatures that exist on this Earth with me - and created the foundation that’s made human society possible.
Just as with a newly born infant, when looking into a creature’s eyes, we make a connection, it’s fleeting, but is there and worth being aware of.
Be it human or animal, occasionally insects even, making some connection, sure it is not much more than being aware of each other, but that’s pretty cool to experience. Though it requires an internal background and tuning to appreciate such simple interaction. I don’t have to explain, or argue, it to death like philosophers love doing. Being aware of it in the moment it’s unfolding, that’s what matters to me.
It stirs something in my heart, that resonates with the rest of my body, as time races by, it makes my fleeting time and life richer for me.
Sure with animals it’s way different, still simply having a keen awareness of them checking me out, as I’m checking them out. I appreciate them for, “engaged in the moment thinking beings” gives me a moment to take stock and wonder about what it might be thinking right then - rather than a “thing” out there, as is the usual reaction. It’s experiencing those folds within folds of cumulative harmonic complexity flowing down the stream of time as a reality - rather than some contrived empty words on a screen.
We need to believe in some thing. Like, what’s the point arguing about the reality of time - when we live it every moment of our lives. I accept passage of time as a fundamental Truth (how time looks for an atom, means nothing to my reality), what’s important to being keenly aware of the passage of our time and how the past has influenced me, and how I influence the future, and how actions echo and age with time. That stuff is woven into my everyday thoughts and actions.
Being 70 years old, having watched life, me and my contemporaries and then the kids. Oh the kids, it’s never stopped, so with kids and step-kids and honorary kids, by and by, having their own kids, and the love and connections and cross connections with all the sturm und drang and tragedies and fun, life has to offer. It’s insane and terrifying in these times, but today is still today and live it we must - so what shall you be present to?
Be it with humans, or critters out in the woods, I’m aware each of us influences the behavior of the other, and such subtle poetry - and I respect them for it. Mind you I spend hours walking around outside, daily, in a large area that I like to say possesses understated grandeur, and far from the Chicago alleys I used to play in and grew up dreaming of escaping.
Oh and speaking of walks, and becoming more aware of the natural world around me, my Maddy has helped teach me about tracking (with some help from Arthur Upfield’s “Bony” character and wonderful stories*) as I follow her on our walks. Not that I make any pretense to knowing squat about it, but at least I’ve become increasingly aware, and am witnessing my eyes learning to see (recognize) more and more - even as my eye sight slowly degrades - I can spot tracks better and better all the time. Reading them is a whole different story, still I know a track translates into a critter passed right here in time. So what? Well it makes the experience of being in that landscape that much richer, and me more understanding of the place I am. Plus, it simply feels satisfying be a part of the scene around here.
Back to Truth requiring a framing -
For me, that framing is Earth, and the geological/biological dance that created life, and the fortuitous pageant of Evolution that created us.
I am a part of this bigger human and biological thing that only Earth has created. My life’s experiences have consistently deepen my connections to the whole of the human experience, and that gives me peace, even during sleepless nights, when I have them.
–
.* Regarding Arthur Upfield… As in detective mysteries that never lose sight of the developing investigation, as he tells vivid stories of outback Australia during the ‘30s, ‘40s, ‘50s. Awesome escapism to a better time, when people still possessed a sense of dignity and honor, probably because there was much more space between us, so we actually still had the room to behave as better peoples plus Earth was still the boss. A time that, even with its hardships and dark sides, makes more sense to me - even as it presaged today self destructiveness.
[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:31, topic:11742”]
Back to the private mess
[
Back to reality . Trumps america says climate change is a hoax while china strives to save the world
Yes and no about China….
For instance, electric cars are an ecological disaster to build.
You mean what’s going on within people’s heads isn’t part of reality?
Electric cars have been a disaster from the get go. Complex technology to fix problems created by complex technology hasn’t worked out so well.
Plus the aspect of these industry leaders having utter ruthless disregard for the public safety or future related issues from the first days of planning - pretending that lithium ion battery threat was minimal and handle-able.
https://www.mass.gov/news/after-six-months-new-tracking-tool-identifies-50-lithium-ion-battery-fires
etc., etc., etc..
Challange crashing out hard again . Li ion phosphate battery much more stable much more harder to reach thermal runaway.
Challenge showcasing his pro trump fist pump on renewables
Continuing dialogue with anonymous.
as if treating objective truth as a guiding principle were a flaw
Can you define “objective truth”?
But isn’t the real issue when someone frames their worldview first and then tailors the facts to fit that frame?
Yeah, and if you’re dealing with words I write, you’re dealing with seven decades worth of musing on these basic questions - and observing those around me, and how interactions, especially the talk people talk, compared to the walk they walk.
I get that we all bring perspectives to the table.
Yeah, but what I’m talking about is that everyone is the center of world they perceive - not just humans, every living creature.
But there’s a difference between perspective guided by truth and truth guided by perspective.
That’s good. It’s worth keeping straight. One of those self-touch-stone questions that can help keep us honest with ourselves - for whom it matters. Good for you, I never formulated those words, and sure won’t forget them.
I’ve let life and facts take me where it will, so believe I appreciate what you mean. ‘
My mother instilled in me a knack for seeing beauty and wonder from where I was. So, striving to be minimal on expectations, maximal on observations and contemplation was my guiding light, through adventures on the road and beyond.
If your version of truth shifts depending on which values you’re privileging at the moment, how do you determine which values are valid?
That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the existential fact that each of us are the center of our world.
The problem you bring up is why I say it’s important to appreciate that “truth” is meaningless without a defined framework.
Also let’s be clear there’s a difference between individual humans, and society. I think I mean that “societal truths” aren’t’ quite the same as individual truths we choose to live by.
Whose frame wins? When everyone is allowed to define truth through personal framing, there’s no foundation left to debate from — just a war of narratives.
That’s pretty much where we are at these days. One of a 1001 reason I’ve lost all faith in the future, we humans have become Gods of sorts, but never learned any wisdom, so we’re at the part of our story where things start to increasingly implode, and the poop hitting the fan at the same time.
Back at Bell Avenue, >10 first years of my life and first couple years of having a TV. Saw a cartoon of the march of civilization, a high speed review of the march of progress, with events morphing into a mountain building and building as the future was portrayed, space race, flying cars, mountain turning into tower - and on and on and then it all collapsed. There I was under ten and wondering if I was going to witness that future, and sure as shit, here we are. It’s nuts. Not to mention quite sad, disappointing.
I’m not saying I have the final word on what truth is — but I do believe that truth, to mean anything at all, must be something we strive toward beyond ourselves. Otherwise, we’re just running in circles around our own egos.
I reckon. Look at the march of humanity, exploration and expansion, and Industrial Revolution, when has it been anything other than Egos running in circles, hubris creating one catastrophe after another, across this planet. Sure, we’ve done some amazing stuff, but never learned a thing, never got past the basest of animal instincts, self-absorbed and self-serving. Yet we believe we are God’s gift to Earth, all the while our imbecile mentality wins in the end, and we act like brutes while Earth gets burned up.
And let’s be honest, when someone critiques another’s thinking as “too rigid” while failing to hold their own method to that same scrutiny, it becomes a low-level attack, not a meaningful exchange. I don’t mind critique, but let’s be clear about what’s really being debated here: objectivity vs. narrative license.
I didn’t realize this was a formal debate.
What’s the premise of the debate? I don’t’ know about “someone” critiquing “another,” or about “rigidity” or “failing to hold oneself up to scrutiny,” or “low level attack” . . . . .
I was just making casual conversation since that seemed what you wanted, and I don’t mind an excuse to write, so we have a momentary mutual interest. But now it’s a debate you say???
what’s really being debated here: objectivity vs. narrative license.
Is that a fact? How do you arrive at that?
Where’s your introduced to this debate?
What is the object of this debate?
Out of curiosity, have you ever read the Dune series?
Nope, have tried, … dunes, but alas, it happens to be meaningless to me, I’m an Earth centrist, meaning the adventures I’m interested in happen, or have happened, within the real landscapes of this miraculous planet Earth.
Frank Herbert explored these exact tensions between truth, power, and perspective — especially how institutions manipulate “truth” through framing to maintain control.
See, that doesn’t interest me. It’s talk for talk. I’ve been interested in living this life I was offered and experiencing real situations, with real people, and real lovers and friends and bosses and all the rest. The strum und drang of living our lives. I’ve been a bit fortunate, the mind of a nerd, but a body that had different things on its agenda.
So rather than Frank Herbert’s bizarre dreams, My thoughts dwell on the appreciation of some most fundamental “Truths,” that is, the Physical Reality ~ Human Mind(scape) divide. Followed by,
Body + Brain + Interaction (interior & exterior) = Consciousness (mind - spirit)
My Body/Brain is the cumulative product of near 600 millions years worth of nature’s research and development being handed down one generation to the next generation - without one freak’n gap!
Your thoughts and consciousness can best be understood as the interior reflection of your body communicating with itself as it deals with living. (that is a scientific position, see Solms, Damasio, Sapolsky - Philosophical contrivances notwithstanding.)
Folds within folds of harmonic, constructive, cumulative poetry flowing down the stream of time.
And my framework is this planet based on what scientists have been learning and shared with all who might be interested.
especially how institutions manipulate “truth” through framing to maintain control. It’s a masterclass in how framing can both shape and distort reality
Oh now we are talking about “institutions” 
Yeah buddy, I’m way the f… familiar with the wholesale brainwashing of a nation full of sheople. Witnessed it in real time.
Might be worth revisiting if we’re talking about the dangers of self-justifying ideologies.
Too late, besides no one actually gives a fart.
Followed by . . .
I think I’m starting to see where our difference really lies. You emphasize that truth only gains meaning when it’s framed
NO! I’m saying truth only exists within a contextual framing.
tied to lived experience, Earth, evolution, and the contexts that make it tangible for humans. That makes truth situational.
Well yeah, the human condition of being creatures of this planet Earth, living out, our oblivious lives.
Has nothing to do with “truth being ‘sensational’ ” - Whether it feels good, or not - that’s sensationalism.
My approach is different: I see truth as existing regardless of whether humans can fully frame or grasp it.
Makes no sense. Existing where? For whom?
Even if parts of reality remain beyond comprehension, they’re still there.
So what?
I am a physical living creature, “reality beyond my comprehension” or buried within the quantum realm, has nothing to do with my life - so why should I be worried about it, when living successfully within physical reality is such a first-order challenge in itself?
You emphasize that truth only gains meaning when it’s framed, tied to lived experience, Earth, evolution, and the contexts that make it tangible for humans. That makes truth situational.
Yeah, truth is situational, I can totally sign on to that.
The context that is tangible for humans seems the only one worth me worrying about. What are you worried about?
To me, the task is to strive toward that anchor, not redefine it to fit our limits.
Strive towards what anchor?
Redefine what?
Which limits?
So perhaps the split is this: you ground truth by contextualizing it,
That’s all we humans have, is our concepts, so you are not making sense.
And ultimately “truth” or “God” is simply beyond our ability to conceptualize.
My concept of truth is based on the physical reality of this universe, as it presents itself to me - I make no illusions to comprehending “Truth”.
I ground it by treating it as something we must keep reaching for beyond ourselves. Neither cancels the other, but it explains why we phrase things differently.
I don’t know what that means.
I have a great respect for “mystery” and understanding I am not capable of comprehending everything and am okay with that.
That is why, for me, “honesty” is a much more important word than “truth”.
Oh another issue I have with “truth” - too often it’s presented with a more pretense than substance.
Interesting conversation, but where are these quotes coming from? Is this the mysterious private messenger?
The change will be reverse charging - car battery to home battery. However Deepseek says estimated cost of reaching net-zero emissions is approximately 400 trillion dollars.
My private mail box. I think the commenter is afraid of you - usually I ignore PMs, because they are simply obnoxious noise, like georgie-porgy, but this time the challenges seemed straightforward - and to be honest I’m a tad depressed and empty after my Breakdown of Meltdown was rejected - and he provided a little inspiration to pick up the pen, so to speak, and to keep writing (you know practice, practice, practice ). Then since I took the time and effort, I figure might as well share it here (that’s a throwback to my hitchhiking days, keep that thumb out, the next vehicle might be the one”) see if anyone has anything of substance to add or offer another challenge to chew on. My expectations are near zero, but hope remains a good strategy for hopeless times.
Actually, we went thought another round last night, but first Maddy is ready for her walk . . .
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