A bottom up, biological, evolutionary, Earth Centrist perspective

Given some recent interaction, I feel like I need to take it from the top and lay out my ideas yet again. Of course, I keep working on refining my words and welcome all challenges.

From Steve Daut’s Buddha Science
Chapter 9, Conclusion, Pooling our thoughts.

¶b1 “So where do we go from here? If our goal is to understand what Reality is, as we stated at the beginning of this book, it may seem like a fool’s errand. …”

I don’t think it’s a fool’s errand. It begins with a one, two punch.

Appreciating the Human Mind ~ Physical Reality divide, and gathering a better awareness of yourself via an evolutionary understanding of where your consciousness comes from, namely your own body.

Consider your legs and feet, arms and hands, like no other creature, carrying a superb skull. Your body is populated with sensing organs and topped with the most complex organ in all of known creation. Your brain orchestrates the show, that is your body interacting with the world and itself, with your consciousness being the internal chatter you hear and more that you don’t hear.

Consciousness is no cosmic gift to Earth, it’s endless generations of biological change in reaction to what was happening here on Earth. How do I know? From getting to know the evolutionary record, it becomes self-evident with time.

Then comes our mind, your thoughts, your me, myself and I, the thing called consciousness, or soul, it is produced by your living biological body/brain, and the better you understand that, the healthier and content you are apt to be.

Consciousness is your Evolutionary heritage. For any creature to function it needed to communicate with itself and also to command its various components to do the correct job, at the correct moments, or it wouldn’t have ever survived to begin with. That’s the bottomline, philosophical pronouncements not withstanding, we have consciousness because we could have never evolved without it!

I mean neuroscientists are filming consciousness in action and it’s still not enough to satisfied philosopher’s impossibly “hard problem’ contrivance. For me, that’s an example of self-absorbed and expecting Nature to prove itself to us. I prefer pragmatic interpretation of the evidence at hand while remaining ready to incorporate new information as it becomes available.


Who are you? . . . . . . . Who am I?

I am an evolved biological thinking machine, the product of Earth’s Evolutionary processes.

Consciousness is a product of my biology

Consciousness is the inside reflection of my body communicating with itself, as it goes about its tasks.

Consciousness is like a cloak draped over my physical body, linked in a choreography until death.

Biology creating consciousness, is no more fantastical, than iron and a magnet producing electricity. Meta-physical skyhooks not needed. Humility and continued scientific studying is doing just fine in describing biological mental connections. (Deep thinking philosophers with their rhetorical logic games not withstanding).

Recognizing, then appreciating the, Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide.

Recognizing that for us to exist at all, means that the universe and Earth flowed down one specific reality, regardless of what we humans want to think. (Our’s is to observe, not assume.)

Are science and religion simply belief systems of a different flavor?

Religion is all about the human mindscape itself, with its wonderful struggles, fears, spiritual undercurrents, needs and stories we create to give our live’s meaning and make it worth living, or at least bearable.

Science seeks to objectively learn about our physical world, but we should still recognize all our understanding is embedded within and constrained by our mindscape.

The scientific process is basically a set of rules for gathering and assessing our observations in an honest, open and disciplined manner - that all who understand science can participate in and trust because it is a community of skeptical experts who are always looking over each others shoulders.

Science is predicated on the notion of fidelity to honesty & truth matters !

Religion is predicated on human wants & needs & insecurities.

What’s the point?

Religions, Science, political beliefs, heaven, hell, art, even God they are all products of the human mindscape, generations of imaginings built upon previous generations of imaginings, all the way down.

That’s not to say they are the same thing, they are not! Though I do think both are equally valid human endeavors, but fundamentally qualitatively different.

Religion deals with the inside of our minds, hearts and souls, Science does its best to objectively understand the physical world beyond all that, doing its best to quarantine ego out of the deliberations.

Physical Reality is the physical world of atoms, molecules, universal laws of physics and Earth’s laws of nature. It is Earth’s dance between geology and biology and time and Earth’s evolving creatures, (and one in particular that learned to contemplate the universe and its short life), along with everything else around us.

Human Mindscape is all that goes on inside of our minds. The landscape of your thoughts and desires and impulses and those various voices and personalities who inhabit our thoughts. The ineffable ideas that our hands can turn into physical creations, that changed our planet.


My yoga teacher explains that we are not our body, that we are not our mind, that we must be the conscience, the observer of them and that to be fully conscience, we must be able to detach ourselves from them, at time.

Can I see it on YouTube?

Comparing science and religion always reminds me of what Ricky Gervais said to Steven Colbert on the Colbert show. Basically, he said if you destroy every religious text, it won’t come back as it is. But if you destroy every science text, it will come back pretty much as it is today. Because one is the truth. The other, myth.
Here’s the interview: Go Ricky!

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Sounds to me like words dressed up as profundities.
And it falls under the lost within one’s own mindscape category.
That “self-absorbed” thing.

Have you ever entered the phase where you totally still your mind?
I think I did once and it was like falling out of a spaceship into the empty black void of space. It was terrifying. It was enlightening, in that it instantaneously convinced me that I belonged in the land of the living and material stuff. That was the end of my flirtation with those kinds of guru inspired ambitions.

I was happy to admit to myself, I am a living being among living beings and like it. All that other groovy stuff can wait till after I die, when I enter that deep endless sleep of death, and it is good.

I found that getting in touch with the world around me and inside of me has been much more profitable, so far as getting a grip on life.

You bet. You can start by Googling imaging consciousness in action, there you’ll find articles and videos.

Morgan, don’t mind CC so much. He’s mostly harmless. Pretty much everything is non-functional to him, even the ancient practice of meditation. Rather than be curious about how to do it or what it is, he just says he tried it once and it was weird, so it must be wrong.

It’s too bad, because his Mindscape thing has some potential, but he’s stuck on the framing of it. He had an experience, he named it, and now, if you have different words for a similar experience, or if you suggest there are other ways of realizing what is important in this world, he will tell you, you got it wrong.

In the latest Vervaeke episode this idea that reality is not limited to one perspective, that there is no one framing that can capture it, is explored. In the first 20 minutes he discusses how we interact with symbols. We are drawn to them, for whatever reason, then we focus on them, and the way we let them into our awareness has an effect back on ourselves. Our awareness is expanded, we intergrate that, but it doesn’t end there, there is always more framing to discover, more “reality” if you will.

There’s more to the video. He starts using words like sacred and supernatural and he started to lose me, but then the says those terms are a category mistake. We’ve taken something that crosses all forms of knowledge seeking, attempts to belong, attempts to understand our place, and put labels on them, like a Cross, or astrological symbols, and called those sacred. I’m not saying you, the one reading did that, but someone in your life tried to show you a symbol and tell you that you need to interact with it in a way that brings you to the same conclusion they did.

That’s the mistake. Symbols don’t work that way. Yes, they can open your mind to something you hadn’t thought of before, but that experience is yours, not the symbols. This is true for holy scripture and it’s true for Grateful Dead concerts and it’s true for science. You can know how music affects feelings without getting that same feeling. There’s nothing wrong with that. Your numinous experience is available through something else, something that the Dead Head will probably think is weird.

Perhaps from time to time. Besides, this is probably talking about recognizing the Human Mindscape ~ Physical reality divide, but in different words.

But that “we are not our body, that we are not our mind, that we must be the conscience,” that’s worth getting irritated, mind is our consciousness, it is produced by our living body. Imagining that away your mind ? . . .
To me it’s like a broken algorithm. I apologize if that offends.

What’s non-functional? If I’m harsh, it’s because we’re living with the results, plenty of progress (smarts) but still next to no recognition for anything beyond ourselves, so much so, we are destroying our global home fast as possible, not the slightest interest in slowing down (wisdom).
That I see as our intellectual heritage - that drives you crazy, I can apologize, but I deal in solid evidence and pragmatic thinking. I’m sometimes a fool, but aren’t we all.

What you mean, tried it once, one doesn’t get there the first try!
Besides I meditate, but no longer seek the bliss or the singularity. I meditate on my breath and insides, or I’ll meditate on a scene, sometimes if I know about the geology of the place I’ll even time-travel.

Let’s just be clear, the “it” I was referring to is the grand seeking of the ultimate bliss, the singularity. Do it. I didn’t mean to discourage the trying, how else can we learn for ourselves. I’m simply sharing what I found there, sent me right back to Earth and living in the now. In that way it was a fantastic lesson.

Yeah, well that’s why I keep searching for some serious focused critic, unfortunately it’s usually a fly-swatter I get. I know I’m a tad rough on the edges, try as I might tone is never soothing enough. Am I just a hopeless ass-hole who outta chuck it, or do I just keep on keeping on? That is the question.

What experience did I name?

I’ll suggest you’ve got it backwards, that’s exactly why I started this thread and shared that outline.

I’d love to focus on that, rather than getting distracted by learned distain for humanity’s pre-evolution self-absorbed thinking (even as I can respect their achievements), because they were also sowing the seeds of our mindless drive toward self-destruction.

That is the inbred mentality that nothing out there matters, beyond its utility to us - which is constantly reflected in the way speakers are wording their ideas, and when I point out those inflection points, you just get upset at me.

I’m referring to thinking we are separate from animals and have to seek the source of our consciousness out in the heavens, and such. Giving evolution lip service then going on same as it ever was.

And right there is the point that keeps getting missed by all-too-many, namely that physical reality only has one perspective and one history!

It’s the creatures living within that reality, who are doing the observing and interacting - that have their multiplicity of perspectives.

That is key, sometimes I even hear that enunciated, but not near often enough.

Here is the other conflict point between L and myself.
For me those last couple paragraphs are only words on top of words. It is the physical world I’ve become attuned to, with Earth sciences being my guide book and my mind doing its best to piece together the evidence I’ve been privy to.

I can’t help that, it’s sad I piss off people. Still, what I’ve presented up there is solid, it’s up for serious critique (as opposed to defensiveness and dismissal) from someone that can relate.

I can offer support for your perspective.
I also believe that we can get into greater detail and begin making some assumptions as to what is going on.

Our current reality, including us has evolved complex patterns. And these patterns have self-organized since the beginning of the formation of the earth.
This is still evident in the feature photo.

All these different varieties of shell size and utility are similar in pattern. In a dynamic environment, they don’t need to be identical, but natural selection deemed this particular pattern and its variations as an improved survival mechanism.

And that gives us a glimpse into the evolutionary process and how that process produces regularly recurring patterns, “our reality”, with properties and abilities that can be described with mathematical language in the form of symbolic values representing naturally occurring generic universal values and functions.

I believe these mechanics support your slightly more subjective philosophical narrative.

I’m back from a nice walk with Maddy, and its occurs to me a little more defining might be good.

This is oversimplified, still think about human knowledge, and it’s dissemination, over the past few millennia. Deep thinkers worried about building empires and schools of thought. No facts, the thinkers and writers worked from personal experience and musing, imagining. The eloquent wealthy or connected were published, the rest pretty much perished. All of that writing is concerned with ourselves and how we reason, how we behave and so on. Throughout there’s an undercurrent that we were gods, and Earth God’s gift to us. It permeated thinking at all levels of intellectual thinking, from then clear into today.

Even into the 1500s and 1600s age of discovery, knowledge about the world around was more opinions fueled by slivers of data. Understanding for the concept of Evolution didn’t really start until 1859, atomic understanding 1905, discovery of DNA 1953, serious oceanography and discovery of plate tectonics 1960s. Those put our world into an entirely new perspective.

For me, the Earth Centrist, there’s pre-evolution understanding and post-evolutionary understanding.

Pre-evolutionary understanding is worth getting to know for what it tells us about how we think and where we came from. It has historic value. Along with lessons on why we created today’s suicidal global economic monstrosity, with so little effort to tame our greediest compulsions.

That mindset helped create a situation where systems we depend on, were taken for granted. Even now most barely notice how systems are being stressed to their limits, at all levels. There will come a collapse, simple geophysics and the math is clear. It will be ugly. The survivors will have a totally new world, battered with the rough global weather system they’ll need to learn to live with and harness. A world of priories we can’t even imagine, we’re smart, knowledge won’t disappear.

How do we prepare ourselves, or should I say them?

Post-Evolution, understanding makes it clear we are biological beings, products of Earth’s evolution and our bodies produce our consciousness, that is what the science is showing us.

That will help people, intellectually & spiritually, a clearer understanding of themselves and all that stuff going on inside. Seriously. A deep visceral, intellectual, spiritual - absorption of the fact of your own individual amazing historical heritage and all your moms and dads that came before.

A recognition that we are part of the biosphere and ought to nurture that biosphere. To take make caretaking Earth a higher priority than consumerism. Sadly it’ll probably take the fires of catastrophe for Earth to get the full attention of everyone left alive.

Is it? Do you think the yogi is going to care?

Are you asking what is non-functional, or what do I mean by “non-functional?

You attack your critics.

The one you had as a child, about being a speck of dust.

No I don’t. I get upset with you for completely different things. You just think that’s what bothers me, so you engage with some imaginary version of me.

Not the point at all. So, like I just said, engaging with something other than me. I didn’t say there is more than one history, I said reality is not something one person can grasp. It is a bit hubris for you to believe that your one perspective is the correct one, don’t you think? I don’t know what “reality only has one perspective”, and I don’t think it’s what you meant. Reality is reality, and each living creature has a perspective on it. Those perspectives can grow, but they will never encompass the whole thing. That’s the “wonder and awe” that we all need to get in touch with.

I said it, you quoted me, and you just didn’t hear it.

Something we agree on

Also something Vervaeke and I are saying

But you are making the “reality” the focus point, rather than the “person’s perspective.”
You (+ Vervaeke) are implying that’s irrelevant. I believe you are wrong about that, it’s very relevant.

What’s a bit of hubris to mixing up what’s happening in our minds with what’s happened within physical reality.

You say you understand, but you don’t, so long you keep making those errors.

It would be different if he used the opportunity of the moment to mention the fact of our consciousness being a reflection of our body, and of our individual body being the recipient of hundreds of millions of years of evolutionary refinement in creatures’ cognitive abilities.

I think we agree on very different aspects of that.
For me, it’s worth knowing for historical background and understanding where we our thinking comes from.

It is not any help in better understanding our relationship with this Earth in these days.

Or in better understanding our relationship with our own thoughts and body, because it was all make-believe thinking, when it came to understanding what we and our bodies and what Earth was all about.

Those insights didn’t come within our grasp until the post-evolution period, and especially these past couple decades of brain studies.

You mean the observation of humanity’s most fundamental duality, or divide, namely the Human Mind ~ Physical Reality divide.

There’s nothing hubris about that! It a simple straightforward observation.

I challenge you to come with something more fundamental.
or alternatively,
show me how that observation is misleading.

I don’t quite get your use of the term “pre-evolutionary understanding”, unless you mean biochemical interaction?

Robert Hazen addresses this very persuasively .

Maybe my sentence could be interpreted to mean that, but I meant people’s perspective of reality. I clarified that, but you are still arguing as if I didn’t. That’s the frustrating part of talking to you. I didn’t read past this point because you are still talking to that person you think I am, to that thing you think I said.

Don’t make it more difficult than it is.
“pre-evolutionary, pre-biological, pre-atomic, pre-plate tectonics understanding.
The substantive Intellectual enlightenment.

Robert Hazen doesn’t do philosophy and that’s what we are talking about here.

But yeah Robert Hazen’s work is definitely a gateway intellectual effort, to the realization I’m talking about - but from what I’ve read he keeps it to the physical science.

But Vervaeke didn’t! Nor did you until I called you on it. The thing is, I’m constantly bumping into that category error. Which is exactly the point I’m making about our intellectual self-absorption. Then you say, oh that just wasn’t clear, or it’s assumed, or some other excuse, it’s not enough.

I simply don’t excuse the category error anymore, and don’t deserve getting attacked for it.

That category error needs to be explicitly addressed.
Such as taking the time to explain your body a product of Earth’s processes and that your consciousness is in reality simply your biological body is communicating with itself (perhaps in the most extra-ordinary mind in Earth’s evolution, but that’s a different matter).

But instead it gets skipped right over - that is wrong and I suggest the hubris is on the casual intellectual oversights, and not on bitching about them.

I stopped reading. You misunderstood my post. You responded to something I didn’t say and Vervaeke didn’t say. You didn’t “call” me on anything.

;kbkjb ;jbgpliug 'ouihiu’oug

It’s his words!
It’s done very often!

But it easier for you to tell me to stop reading and to shut up.

And you wonder why I’m cynical .

What are you taking about? What words? Yoh can’t just say he said something that he didn’t say.

I’ve listened to him also.
Sometime when I have more available time, I’ll have to work on compiling time signatures and bring the receipts, but that will just aggravate you more, because you don’t want to recognize the problem to begin with. Perhaps too much respect for our distinguished intellectual heritage - whereas I’m hung up on the living world and the results of that intellectual heritage so am not in awe, I’m disturbed by that heritage. That’s what’s rattling you.

Assumptions are not explicit explanations and discussions.

Heck that philosophy professor still refuses to respond to my question: “How does the assumption of God become a Being of God?”

I know what I’m hearing.

This is no longer an evidence based conversation. You responded to a long quote, and you misinterpreted a couple words. I tried pointing that out, but you doubled down. Now you’re saying you have some evidence but you can’t find it right now. You’re comments about me are worthless in that context