What happens when you die? Well, it depends...

Darn, Vyazma, you beat me to the punch on commenting on the saddest sadist. But to the actual discussion, assigning meaning is something we humans do. (Mittens, AFAIK, do not assign meaning.) Should we assign meaning to our existence? Yeah. Why? Because we can. Because it tends to make life better.
What meaning do you assign to our existence Tim? So no answer then?
However, I do hold in esteem those who assign a meaning, for their own individual life, that involves doing and advocating things that support others, now and in the future. Because, ultimately, as inherently interconnected social creatures, that tends to be better, I think, for each of us individually.
I don't think that's what Martin and I were talking about. Yes individuals can assign meaning to their lives quite easily...and objectively(?) Parents, doctors, truck drivers, drug dealers, priests etc....a person can easily get a sense of purpose. The question is: the meaning of humanity's existence. A purpose? And of course there is none.
However, I do hold in esteem those who assign a meaning, for their own individual life, that involves doing and advocating things that support others, now and in the future. Because, ultimately, as inherently interconnected social creatures, that tends to be better, I think, for each of us individually.
I don't think that's what Martin and I were talking about. Yes individuals can assign meaning to their lives quite easily...and objectively(?) Parents, doctors, truck drivers, drug dealers, priests etc....a person can easily get a sense of purpose. The question is: the meaning of humanity's existence. A purpose? And of course there is none. Objectively speaking, then, since we agree that individuals can assign meaning to their own existence, a question arises: Can a group of individuals collectively assign meaning to their group's existence?
Do humans give meaning to existence? Oh yes, lot's of humans do. As in, humans look for and ascribe meaning to existence. Some don't...like myself.
Do we really have to rehash some of the ways in which people collectively find the meaning of humanity? I asked you what meaning you might ascribe to humanity. Do you have anything?
Do humans give meaning to existence? Oh yes, lot's of humans do. As in, humans look for and ascribe meaning to existence. Some don't...like myself.
Do we really have to rehash some of the ways in which people collectively find the meaning of humanity? When you make this statement: "The question is: the meaning of humanity’s existence. A purpose? And of course there is none.", you (it seems to me) are flatly stating that people who may collectively decide on a meaning for themselves as humans, are, as you say, "of course" wrong. I think that may be tantamount to saying that any individual's assignment of meaning to their particular individual existence, is "of course" wrong. I understand the idea that from an imagined cosmic perspective, separate from, and looking at the human species, there is no apparent purpose to its existence. Because the cosmos, as far as we know, just is. It has no purpose for existence. But from that, you extrapolate that organisms who have the ability to assign meaning, to identify and pursue goals, IOW, who, collectively, find a purpose in their existence, would be in error, when they do so. That doesn't sound correct to me. (Because the yardstick for "meaning", is not a cosmic one, but a human one.) When you say that "of course" there is no meaning in humans' existence, I think that you could, potentially, be wrong. I think that you can legitimately say that there is no "cosmic meaning" for humans' existence, and consistent with that, you have, personally, decided that there should be no assignment of meaning to humans' existence. And based on that, I think that you can legitimately appeal to others that this is the most coherent stance to take, i.e., to assign no meaning to humans' existence. But what you are not accounting for, I think, is that "meaning" is a human conceptual construct. Assigning meaning is a rather uniquely human thing to do. We came up with it. And we were formed by the cosmos, in such a way, that we can do so. That's a bit of a wild card, if you ask me. I suggest that the meaning of humanity's existence could be what ever we collectively decide it to be. Right now, I would say that it's pretty much a blur, generally speaking, because we haven't, really, collectively decided, ...and if we never do... then you will be correct.
Darn, Vyazma, you beat me to the punch on commenting on the saddest sadist. But to the actual discussion, assigning meaning is something we humans do. (Mittens, AFAIK, do not assign meaning.) Should we assign meaning to our existence? Yeah. Why? Because we can. Because it tends to make life better.
What meaning do you assign to our existence Tim? So no answer then? I don't speak for all humans. If I did, it would be something to the effect of "To make Life better." Why not? Among our various capacities to make Life worse, we also have the capacity to make Life better, so why not assign our purpose as being to make Life better? Of course this is so much more difficult than taking the stance that there is no meaning to our existence, as we have to decide the meaning of "To make Life better" and then we have to figure out how to go about doing that, and then we have to do it.
I think that you can legitimately say that there is no "cosmic meaning" for humans' existence, and consistent with that, you have, personally, decided that there should be no assignment of meaning to humans' existence. And based on that, I think that you can legitimately appeal to others that this is the most coherent stance to take, i.e., to assign no meaning to humans' existence. But what you are not accounting for, I think, is that "meaning" is a human conceptual construct. Assigning meaning is a rather uniquely human thing to do. We came up with it. And we were formed by the cosmos, in such a way, that we can do so. That's a bit of a wild card, if you ask me. I suggest that the meaning of humanity's existence could be what ever we collectively decide it to be. Right now, I would say that it's pretty much a blur, generally speaking, because we haven't, really, collectively decided, ...and if we never do... then you will be correct.
Here's a meaning myth to try on for size. Humanity is the most exquisite example of God's need and desire to understand itself. Heck you can replace god with cosmos for all I care. I know that it's sacrilege to ascribe any sort of drive to evolution - yet the fact of the events remains that they add up to a pageant of ever increasing sensory and manipulatory abilities. I like to imagine perhaps that is an indication of something deep and inherent within the fabric of creation. For me my most glorious feeling alive moments are all about being witness to this fantastic creation that surrounds me. Perhaps my true self isn't the only one sensing through my eyes and body. :)
I understand the idea that from an imagined cosmic perspective, separate from, and looking at the human species, there is no apparent purpose to its existence. Because the cosmos, as far as we know, just is. It has no purpose for existence.
Bingo.

Thanks for the corrections, VYAZMA , sadist was a spelling error, sorry for that, although there was a bit of dark humor in that error. Spelling has always been a challenge for me, almost didn’t graduate from high school because of it, but I just made it on the third and last try at the senior spelling list. It’s a different world now (in many ways) but when I’m in a hurry I tend to take what the spell checker gives me without much question.
On “meaning", and “importance"… Obviously, those terms have broad application and every human has a constellation of very different concepts on what is meaningful and important to them. Some important things are highly individualized in detail and some are very broad in scope. The meaning and purpose of human life is one of those things that are both.
Actually, the purpose of human life is easy to explain. Which is a rather cavalier way of introducing such a subject that has so many ramifications and cultural nuances, but let me give you my take on it. Human beings are “card carrying" vertebrate mammals of primate evolutionary origin, and as such have the basic biological behaviors and physiological drives that have fostered survival of the linage of our ancestors for millions of years, way back into deep time. We would not exist if the behaviors and biological drives that developed in the species that preceded us had not allowed those species to survive. Survival of those precursor species depended on three things. One, individual survival in a complex ecology at least to sexual maturity, and two, a biological reproductive strategy that allowed for development and survival of enough progeny to sustain survival of that species, and three, enough plasticity in the species genome to allow genetic change to occur as the environment changed.
Thus the biological purpose of human life is to live to be an adult and then to successfully reproduce, or in some circumstances, aid and enhance the reproduction of other individuals of the same species. I know that my purpose in life as an individual biological human being, which I have fulfilled, is/was to survive and develop into a reproductively active adult, reproduce, and then do what I could to ensure the survival of my progeny. Everything else is just the intellectual, physical, and cultural constructions that have evolved to enhance (obviously over the biological top) survival of the human species. And this is where purpose of life and meaning of life converge in a mass tangle of conflicting human desires, talents, intellectual prowess, imagination, religion, science and chutzpah.
Usually the question of the meaning of life is portrayed by the cartoon of an exhausted mountain climber approaching the summit of great mountain where sits a bearded prophet in deep contemplation. The climber asks “What is the meaning of life?" and prophet replies, “I don’t know the computer is down." or some other equally humorous retort. But most people have an answer, and it is usually based on religion. Here in the United States, according to the PEW Research Center, if you took 100 people at absolute random and asked each one What is the meaning of life, about 78 of them would answer with some version of:
God created the Earth and all life. He created human beings for the purpose of worshiping him and proclaiming and glorifying him as the merciful King of all creation. The purpose and meaning of every human being is to believe, worship god, and bring others to his fold. My meaning in life is to serve my supernatural god as he demands (and he will reward me for it if I do so).
The other 22 would have a great variety of answers, some would be religious, some non religious and many just don’t know. If you don’t buy into a “meaning of life" as defined and promulgated by an authority figure such as a religion or even a Pharaoh who needs slaves to build his pyramids, then you are on your own. Some people seem to find meaning in life as the accumulation of money and others want to leave a legacy of some sort as their meaning in life. But most people don’t think in terms of meaning in life, even most religious people, what they try to do and in which they do find meaning, is just to live as best they can, within their culture, and take care of their own, and in this they are in essence fulfilling their biological imperative and finding meaning for their life. However, this doesn’t always work, as the suicide rate in our modern civilization attests.

Thus the biological purpose of human life is to live to be an adult and then to successfully reproduce, or in some circumstances, aid and enhance the reproduction of other individuals of the same species. I know that my purpose in life as an individual biological human being, which I have fulfilled, is/was to survive and develop into a reproductively active adult, reproduce, and then do what I could to ensure the survival of my progeny. Everything else is just the intellectual, physical, and cultural constructions that have evolved to enhance (obviously over the biological top) survival of the human species. And this is where purpose of life and meaning of life converge in a mass tangle of conflicting human desires, talents, intellectual prowess, imagination, religion, science and chutzpah.
Exactly. And I would quasi-partially accept the reproductive cycle as a meaning or purpose. (a little aside, coincidentally I was looking through an architecture book just a few moments ago. A "philosophical" architecture book on Louis Sullivan. Kind of an artsy-fartsy, literary affair that parallels the story of L. Sullivan. In the book was a quote from some figure who said...paraphrasing..."the seed is the ultimate end or purpose to the flower, to which all other parts of the flower are subservient to." So I would accept this concept to be the ultimate meaning.... except! Except that we haven't always been here. We are here causally from inorganic space matter. The "purpose" doesn't start at the beginning of humanity, or even the beginning of life on Earth. So if we are going to look for a purpose we have to look further back than that....we have to look at how electrons arrange themselves. This is not to say that I am looking for any purpose in that avenue...I'm just saying that academically.

yeah, VYAZMA, good paragraph but I liked this one more:

Actually, the purpose of human life is easy to explain. Which is a rather cavalier way of introducing such a subject that has so many ramifications and cultural nuances, but let me give you my take on it. Human beings are “card carrying" vertebrate mammals of primate evolutionary origin, and as such have the basic biological behaviors and physiological drives that have fostered survival of the linage of our ancestors for millions of years, way back into deep time. We would not exist if the behaviors and biological drives that developed in the species that preceded us had not allowed those species to survive. Survival of those precursor species depended on three things. One, individual survival in a complex ecology at least to sexual maturity, and two, a biological reproductive strategy that allowed for development and survival of enough progeny to sustain survival of that species, and three, enough plasticity in the species genome to allow genetic change to occur as the environment changed.
You’ve got to be kidding, right? The successful biological outcome of human coitus is the birth of a human child and the biological code that developed that child in the womb and throughout its life is a combination, half and half, of the biological codes of the mother and the father.
No I wasn't kidding. What's wrong with the process of carrying on your genetic code through mating? If you're talking about immortality here I have to ask if you're kidding. Nobody wants to make copies of people. Nobody wants to make another copy of Ralph, or Judy walking around. "Hey look, its just like the old Ralph!!" Nobody gives a crap. I would definitely be against it. I'd be against making another copy of Einstein..let alone you, Martin! Copies of one's genetic code or having progeny does not create immortality. We all die whether our genetic code survives or not. Lois
Copies of one's genetic code or having progeny does not create immortality. We all die whether our genetic code survives or not. Lois
No!?!?