(I’m starting this in reaction to comments in the Trump thread)
The rhetoric from the Republican candidates is obviously flawed, but so is the idea of fining employers. What we need is immigration reform. We need it because we need workers. The people who are hiring undocumented workers are doing it because they need workers. Some of them are doing it in a way that equates to slave labor, but that’s true of a lot of employers and their American born employees. I have no idea what the numbers are and don’t really care. Until someone can demonstrate that businesses employing people is somehow bad for the economy, all this crap about Mexicans is just a distraction.
(I'm starting this in reaction to comments in the Trump thread) The rhetoric from the Republican candidates is obviously flawed, but so is the idea of fining employers. What we need is immigration reform. We need it because we need workers. The people who are hiring undocumented workers are doing it because they need workers. Some of them are doing it in a way that equates to slave labor, but that's true of a lot of employers and their American born employees. I have no idea what the numbers are and don't really care. Until someone can demonstrate that businesses employing people is somehow bad for the economy, all this crap about Mexicans is just a distraction.Fining employers who are criminally hiring illegal aliens is, IMO, the most cost effective way, by far, of addressing the problems associated with having illegal aliens. When it is clear that there are not enough legal persons to do the needed jobs, penalizing employers will motivate them into call for quick immigration reform. Illegal employees will always be more subject to abuse than are legal ones. Legal ones have other recourses to combat abuse. All this "crap about Mexicans" does seem to me to be, in large part, politically based hyperbole, but the simplest and most effective way, and least costly way to address it, is to fine employers who are committing the crime of employing those who are here illegally.
When it is clear that there are not enough legal persons to do the needed jobs, penalizing employers will motivate them into call for quick immigration reform.But that is clear and employers are calling for immigration reform. Granted, corporations can go beyond borders and beyond laws and hire at will and create the job markets and keep wages low. That's a problem, but it is not a border problem. Most of my family is in the Flint area, so I know first hand about jobs going to other countries. It's a justice and worker's rights problem. Trying to stop the flow by corporations to Mexico or people from Mexico is not going to change that. The problem of people being underpaid is no different for "illegals" than it is for WalMart employees in Kansas. Pointing to people who look different than us is blatant "othering", a way to get workers fighting with each other instead of fighting the forces that create the two-tiered society.
... The problem of people being underpaid is no different for "illegals" than it is for WalMart employees in Kansas. Pointing to people who look different than us is blatant "othering", a way to get workers fighting with each other instead of fighting the forces that create the two-tiered society.But it so clearly IS different for "illegals". They can be exploited much more easily. And that, in turn, makes it easier to exploit "Walmart employees in Kansas". Can't you see that one of the key "forces" that is used (to create a two tiered society) IS the "othering"? Hence, I suggest "othering" the real criminals -- the "criminal employers", the "illegal employers" who provide the fuel for the current system. If THESE criminals are prevented from continuing their criminal behavior of hiring undocumented aliens, they will either have to help the undocumented get documented (and probably, then, have to pay them more), &/or up their pay so that current citizens will do the work, or go out of business.
There’s another part of this story that we never hear about - American workers. Darn if I can’t find the article I read about Louisiana’s/Jindals experiment with getting rid of illegal aliens. Maybe it was on the Jon Oliver show. The gist was that Lousiana basically threw out all of its illegal aliens. Result? For a short time tons of god-bless-Americans filled the positions…for a short time only then they quit in droves. They either couldn’t do the work or wouldn’t. Companies were forced to rehire Mexicans to do the work or face going out of business. So much for the myth of the hardworking American worker!
There's another part of this story that we never hear about - American workers. Darn if I can't find the article I read about Louisiana's/Jindals experiment with getting rid of illegal aliens. Maybe it was on the Jon Oliver show. The gist was that Lousiana basically threw out all of its illegal aliens. Result? For a short time tons of god-bless-Americans filled the positions...for a short time only then they quit in droves. They either couldn't do the work or wouldn't. Companies were forced to rehire Mexicans to do the work or face going out of business. So much for the myth of the hardworking American worker!When did this happen? How did Jindal get all the illegal aliens out of Louisiana? If he did that he must be some kind of magician. It's funny that I never heard about this happening, nor of God-Bless-America citizens taking those jobs, even temporarily. Lois
(I'm starting this in reaction to comments in the Trump thread) The rhetoric from the Republican candidates is obviously flawed, but so is the idea of fining employers. What we need is immigration reform. We need it because we need workers. The people who are hiring undocumented workers are doing it because they need workers. Some of them are doing it in a way that equates to slave labor, but that's true of a lot of employers and their American born employees. I have no idea what the numbers are and don't really care. Until someone can demonstrate that businesses employing people is somehow bad for the economy, all this crap about Mexicans is just a distraction.You state people who are hiring undocumented workers. That would be a very, very small number. Mostly household employees. And household employees is the slave labor and cheaper labor area. Then you state that “businesses employing people". Businesses can’t employee undocumented workers. It is impossible to do without committing a crime. That number would be even smaller. Then you say you don’t care about the numbers. That’s OK, I understand your thoughts here, and I just wanted to clarify those couple of points. The reform that is needed is to upregulate the VISA program. Other countries have used our VISA program and it works fine. When department are allowed to create regulations, they are in fact creating laws. And it is these regulations (laws) that have screwed up our VISA work programs. Government departments don’t care if it takes a year for them to do some paperwork. That doesn’t work for most business. The way hiring illegals does the most harm is in when they are hired outside of the trades that Americans will not work. Jobs like agriculture, landscaping, hotel, motel and restaurants do need the help of the illegals to stay in business with the business models they are using. Where the problems come into play is the business that use illegals because they are better and more reliable than the American workers. Example, fast food was known as a first job for many Americans. McDonnell was the largest employer in the United States. Fast food was a place where a kids in high school would earn enough to buy their first car. Now in the big cities fast food is a Spanish speaking operation. Note, under the VISA program, the workers could never work in trades like fast food. And workers have to return to their countries when the job is finished or our unemployment rates become high. I agree with you that wall and arresting employers of aliens is stupid. This is all a political reaction to Trump. The real problem is in letting departments take over the job of congress in making laws.
... The problem of people being underpaid is no different for "illegals" than it is for WalMart employees in Kansas. Pointing to people who look different than us is blatant "othering", a way to get workers fighting with each other instead of fighting the forces that create the two-tiered society.But it so clearly IS different for "illegals". They can be exploited much more easily. And that, in turn, makes it easier to exploit "Walmart employees in Kansas". Can't you see that one of the key "forces" that is used (to create a two tiered society) IS the "othering"? Hence, I suggest "othering" the real criminals -- the "criminal employers", the "illegal employers" who provide the fuel for the current system. If THESE criminals are prevented from continuing their criminal behavior of hiring undocumented aliens, they will either have to help the undocumented get documented (and probably, then, have to pay them more), &/or up their pay so that current citizens will do the work, or go out of business. In the news video I saw Trump say that bring workers from other countries was bad for our country. And he had done so in the VISA B1 program. But he said it was all legal. He said he would change the laws that allow that to happen if he be was president. Employers are not the criminals here. They do not hire undocumented workers. The criminals here is the government whose job it is to process the required documents. If the government was doing their job, no undocumented worker could find a job. Example, out of three thousand dairy workers, I figured 85% had phony documents. By law, if I instructed the dairies not to work the workers. I would have been sued. And the State and Federal departments would have come down on me with fines and high legal costs. Every worker was documented. The documents are State and Federal legal documents that are controlled and processed by the State and Federal government. Had the government done their jobs, in their own systems and paperwork that they built. Then the workers would not have been able to use phony paperwork. Tim, I should point this problem out. In Mexico and other Central American countries paperwork is different than here in America. For example, date of birth. They have two. The religious date and the actual date. The religious date is used most often. But both date are used and that is confusing. Then the names they use. For the last name, most have four. So it is not uncommon for a person to be carrying paper work that has four different last names. When they come here they don’t know our system or which name to use.
... The problem of people being underpaid is no different for "illegals" than it is for WalMart employees in Kansas. Pointing to people who look different than us is blatant "othering", a way to get workers fighting with each other instead of fighting the forces that create the two-tiered society.But it so clearly IS different for "illegals". They can be exploited much more easily. And that, in turn, makes it easier to exploit "Walmart employees in Kansas". Can't you see that one of the key "forces" that is used (to create a two tiered society) IS the "othering"? Hence, I suggest "othering" the real criminals -- the "criminal employers", the "illegal employers" who provide the fuel for the current system. If THESE criminals are prevented from continuing their criminal behavior of hiring undocumented aliens, they will either have to help the undocumented get documented (and probably, then, have to pay them more), &/or up their pay so that current citizens will do the work, or go out of business. In the news video I saw Trump say that bring workers from other countries was bad for our country. And he had done so in the VISA B1 program. But he said it was all legal. He said he would change the laws that allow that to happen if he be was president. I would like to know how Trumpet thinks he will change laws when the President has nothing to do with writing or voting on legislation. All he can do us sign bills from Congress or refuse to sign them. Trump proves he doesn't even understand how the US government operates, yet he wants to be president. Employers are not the criminals here. They do not hire undocumented workers. The criminals here is the government whose job it is to process the required documents. If the government was doing their job, no undocumented worker could find a job. Example, out of three thousand dairy workers, I figured 85% had phony documents. By law, if I instructed the dairies not to work the workers. I would have been sued. And the State and Federal departments would have come down on me with fines and high legal costs. Every worker was documented. The documents are State and Federal legal documents that are controlled and processed by the State and Federal government. Had the government done their jobs, in their own systems and paperwork that they built. Then the workers would not have been able to use phony paperwork. Tim, I should point this problem out. In Mexico and other Central American countries paperwork is different than here in America. For example, date of birth. They have two. The religious date and the actual date. The religious date is used most often. But both date are used and that is confusing. Then the names they use. For the last name, most have four. So it is not uncommon for a person to be carrying paper work that has four different last names. When they come here they don’t know our system or which name to use.
I would like to know how Trumpet thinks he will change laws when the President has nothing to do with writing or voting on legislation. All he can do us sign bills from Congress or refuse to sign them. Trump proves he doesn't even understand how the US government operates, yet he wants to be president.I don’t know if that’s true. Obama has managed to make some of his laws without congress.
There's another part of this story that we never hear about - American workers. Darn if I can't find the article I read about Louisiana's/Jindals experiment with getting rid of illegal aliens. Maybe it was on the Jon Oliver show. The gist was that Lousiana basically threw out all of its illegal aliens. Result? For a short time tons of god-bless-Americans filled the positions...for a short time only then they quit in droves. They either couldn't do the work or wouldn't. Companies were forced to rehire Mexicans to do the work or face going out of business. So much for the myth of the hardworking American worker!When did this happen? How did Jindal get all the illegal aliens out of Louisiana? If he did that he must be some kind of magician. It's funny that I never heard about this happening, nor of God-Bless-America citizens taking those jobs, even temporarily. LoisI think now that I saw a news report on this for Louisiana. Basically LA implemented then enforced laws that forced tens of thousands of migrant workers to flee the state. The result was open jobs. They were filled temporarily but then the white workers left in droves because they couldn't/wouldn't handle the jobs. Here's an article explaining a similar situation in New York. The shortage in NY has a different cause, but the result was the same. http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-dairy-immigration-20150330-story.html
There's another part of this story that we never hear about - American workers. Darn if I can't find the article I read about Louisiana's/Jindals experiment with getting rid of illegal aliens. Maybe it was on the Jon Oliver show. The gist was that Lousiana basically threw out all of its illegal aliens. Result? For a short time tons of god-bless-Americans filled the positions...for a short time only then they quit in droves. They either couldn't do the work or wouldn't. Companies were forced to rehire Mexicans to do the work or face going out of business. So much for the myth of the hardworking American worker!When did this happen? How did Jindal get all the illegal aliens out of Louisiana? If he did that he must be some kind of magician. It's funny that I never heard about this happening, nor of God-Bless-America citizens taking those jobs, even temporarily. LoisI think now that I saw a news report on this for Louisiana. Basically LA implemented then enforced laws that forced tens of thousands of migrant workers to flee the state. The result was open jobs. They were filled temporarily but then the white workers left in droves because they couldn't/wouldn't handle the jobs. Here's an article explaining a similar situation in New York. The shortage in NY has a different cause, but the result was the same. http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-dairy-immigration-20150330-story.html Interesting, but the article is a year old. Any idea what has happened since? Are the dairy farms still suffering for lack of workers? Lois