And…
Perhaps you should pause on your smart ass comments about proving everyone wrong and consider your own internal conversation (we all have them).
For example, you say I see the world through rose colored glasses and that that means I am probably not a qualified person to provide any help.
You could have taken the approach that, as someone who has had the end of a Mossberg pump-action shotgun in his mouth, but now appears to have rose-colored glasses, I might be the perfect person to provide help. But that would ruin your entire Debbie Downer vibe.
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Again, no it wouldn’t. It doesn’t matter, in fact I would say that makes you less able to provide help. The only reason we don’t let people just do it is because humans are afraid of death and we try to make all these rationalizations about why they would do so when they’re healthy. Not every suicide is due to depression or illness but it seems like we need it to be because otherwise it would force us as a society to question the value of life.
Ergo, easier to label them sick and be done with it rather than engage.
In fact your pivot might render you even more unreliable since you fell for the nonsense people try to peddle to keep others alive. But on closer examination none of it holds any water. I already explained why it’s wrong and not coherent reasoning to live. Once you see through it, it doesn’t matter how much they repeat it. The whole thing just becomes noise.
I mean…if I’m gonna die anyway why not get it over with. It’s not like I’ll miss out since I’ll be dead and won’t be able to regret or miss anything. People who try to argue otherwise don’t see how luck shaped (and clouds) their view, so they don’t have an accurate assessment on what life’s like.
That’s why I said it doesn’t matter if you had a shotgun in your mouth, in fact it’s irrelevant.
What internal conversation?
Alrighty then!
343 posts in, I have to say that it is in my nature as a humanist to try to help those in need. But, no good deed, as they say.
I suspected early on that darkness was like that energy vampire on “What We Do In the Shadows.” He/she/it has shown that empathy is not in its wheelhouse. Unaware of its own internal conversation, it pretends to be introspective.
If darkness is truly in such a hopeless state, then I wish nothing more than good professional care shows up.
If darkness is just a fan of “punking” people, well, bravo/brava.
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We’re born with it, it enhances our pleasure for everything. It’s why we’re all on this forum. In the TV show “Alone”, the survival part is hard, but being alone is harder. It’s not just hearing a good joke, it’s learning something new, experiencing something we can’t or just haven’t yet, and seeing ourselves from another POV. The desire to share, and to care for what others share.
And, sometimes, it’s an answer to “why”. Not “why is there something rather than nothing” but “why am I here at this moment?”
But for some, what others have is worth nothing. Most people grow out of that. The “knowing everything” attitude of the high school senior is gone with a little real world awakening.
Then you are out of touch. It’s not that I don’t understand or empathize, I’m saying it’s irrelevant. Empathizing doesn’t mean you care necessarily. You literally just blew
Except that’s not what you were doing. Like Mirana you keep trying to insist something was the case despite what someone was telling you. You’re not trying to help, you haven’t even read or argued against what I said. All you said was “my personal experience” when that’s not relevant.
Quite the opposite in fact. The older one gets the more you see that people aren’t really that complex or hard to figure out. Stuff is less gray in the real world, which is ironic because you’d expect otherwise.
The real world awakening, ironically, is seeing how void life is. You haven’t gotten there yet. It’s to lose the childish enthusiasm of youth. It’s realizing on average life sucks and that those who claim otherwise just got lucky.
That is just not true, like most positive psychology statements.
You mean a dog can have more fun than you because it doesn’t know why it is happy. It is a zombie because it can be happy?
Lighten up. Order an ice cream and wallow in the sweetness for a few minutes.
What you do not seem to understand is that happiness and sadness are evolved emotions. Your zombie argument is totally false. The very reverse is true.
Yes. All the science in that podcast is wrong. There’s no way to make any choices that effect your life. Silly me.
Dogs don’t have fun, they also aren’t really as aware as humans are about the bigger picture, so you’re proving my point about such a position being naive.
It’s not really science. Like I said positive psychology isn’t really backed by science.
Heck two of the studies in there contradict their position, so you’re not really making a good case for yourself here. That’s not even getting into the flaws with measuring enjoyment, which isn’t possible since it’s a feeling. It’s like trying to measure sadness or anger, there is no way to quantify it. That and sharing experiences doesn’t enhance joy, I can personally attest to that one. Sharing experiences with others diminishes the joy felt, especially when it bombs and no one reacts.
But it’s not joy you get from that but validation, to be told you’re right that this experience is great or something or other. It’s just seeking confirmation, not sharing joy.
Also the irony of sharing something from Robin Williams when you know what happened to him, also sorta digging your hole with that one.
I thought about that. He brought joy to millions. You can’t erase that. His story tells us that it’s hard to know what is going on in the minds of others. The end of his story is not where the meaning of everything he did and said is found. That’s the hole you are in, where death negates life. I don’t see it that way.
You mean a dog can have more fun than you because it doesn’t know why it is happy. It is a zombie because it can be happy?
Lighten up. Order an ice cream and wallow in the sweetness for a few minutes.
What you do not seem to understand is that happiness and sadness are evolved emotions. Your zombie argument is totally false. The very reverse is true.
Empathy is an evolved sense that allows you to experience the happiness or sadness of another living being. This is why we can appreciate great art.
If you can overcome your “resistance” to feeling anything at all you will live A “fuller” life.
You are proving your ignorance of psychology.
You have this totally backwards. Dogs love having fun.
What Can Dogs Feel?
So, what emotions do they feel? Scroll through and see below!
Joy
It’s written all over their face. Dogs are filled with joy when doing their favourite activities, from chasing tennis balls at the park to cuddling on the couch. No matter where they are or what they’re doing, dogs find a way to enjoy themselves!
Surprise
Dogs tend to be excitable and easily surprised, which can make for some hilarious moments. They have a healthy appetite for new experiences and different ways to play.
Conclusion:
Although dogs don’t have the same range of emotions as we do, they are dynamic animals who have real feelings. They can even sense what people are feeling! Complex emotional states may be out of reach for our furry friends, but they’re experts at expressing the most important one, love.
more…
https://www.purina.co.nz/articles/expert-dog-care/behaviour/understanding/feel#
Having fun does not require maturity or skills . Fun teaches skills.
Serious matters do require maturity and experience gained from having fun…
Fun only requires childlike naivite (psychology).
https://www.reddit.com/r/likeus/comments/c8mqf0/orangutan_laughing_at_a_magic_trick/#lightbox
That article is by a hypnotherapist, not exactly reliable. Not to mention the guy has a poor understanding of how children are actually like. It’s the same idealized nonsense you hear adults talk when they refer to kids, like they are some pure and joyous creatures when that’s not reality.
Fu doesn’t teach skills, not sure where you got that one from. There is no experience or maturity gained from having fun, that’s why it’s fun. To solve serious matters you have to leave fun behind.
Childlike naivete is a bad thing, as anyone who has spent 5 min with children will tell you. Children are quite cruel and vicious because they don’t know better. Not to mention how destructive they are because they don’t see how their actions impact others. The guy in the article is truly ignorant.
No, it just looks that way to humans. We can’t get in their heads.
What is that going to solve? I swear you don’t understand what you say before you say it. Stuff like that doesn’t solve anything.
That’s not empathy. Also you can’t experience the sadness or happiness of another living being, only the PERCEIVED notions of such. You don’t know how they feel, you’re just guessing. We “appreciate” art because we project our notions onto it, it has nothing to do with empathy.
There is no resistance to feeling, not sure where you got that from. I just know better know that I’m older and have learned more about this stuff. You, like before, still don’t understand the things you say.
Not to mention anyone who writes an article about the joys of being child-like doesn’t understand children and obviously has a very privileged life, hence their advice is often invalid.
IF you don’t see it that way then you’re wrong, and I already explained why. There is no getting around it.
It doesn’t matter if he brought joy to millions, he obviously didn’t believe his own words otherwise he wouldn’t have taken his life. You can erase that, and most people are too short-sighted to see that. They just see tragedy but don’t think to ask why someone who preached such things his whole life would kill himself.
The answer is obvious to anyone who thinks about it for 5 minutes, he didn’t believe a word of it. The “story” you think is where the meaning is found isn’t it, it’s in his death. His life seemed more like trying to convince himself more than anyone else, and obviously it didn’t work. He really wanted it to be true, but the reality is that it’s not.
So…you’re just wrong on this, and your examples just support my point not yours. That and your reasoning never held water, as I showed already.
You say you’ve seen it but your words show you haven’t. Not really. You still cling to life. Me, I’ve seen the “Void”, the meaninglessness of it all and now I don’t see why I’m bothering with any of it. There is no goal, no real reason to pursue all of this, and self generated meaning perishes before oblivion and the void of existence. And that’s further backed by how easy it is to take apart your counter examples.
And you do have understanding of how children are like? You have studied the subject and are qualified to make such assertions?
Play is what pulls together the logical and creative parts of the brain . For young children, play is often a full body activity that helps them develop skills they will need later in life. Running, dancing, climbing, rolling—these activities all foster muscle development and help fine-tune motor skills.
How Do Children Learn Through Play?
No no, children are curious. If they become cruel and vicious it is usually due to socioeconomic factors of the family.
In a friendly generous environment almost all living creatures are friendly.
Even inter-species friendships can form in a friendly environment.
Having a ice cream is rewarding yourself to a treat. It is being kind to yourself.
Empathy is function of the “mirror neural network”. It allows us to learn by observation.
Mirror Neurons and the Neuroscience of Empathy
Imitating and comprehending others’ activities is particularly helpful for young children’s learning skills (the how ), such as speech, movement, and play. Mirror neurons also appear to provide sufficient information to predict why someone is performing the behavior they are engaged in, and this is a powerful mechanism for emotional understanding (Rasmussen & Bliss, 2014).
[quote=“inthedarkness, post:352, topic:11076”]
There is no resistance to feeling, not sure where you got that from. I just know better know that I’m older and have learned more about this stuff. You, like before, still don’t understand the things you say.
How to Work Through Resistance
Sometimes you need to let go.
- It’s human nature to push back against things we don’t like or feel like we don’t need.
- Our resistance is often automatic and unconscious.
- Cultivating awareness can help us let go of our inner tension and embrace more opportunities to learn and grow.
How to Work Through Resistance | Psychology Today
Well, my childhood was spent in a warzone, which kinda negates your inexperience in understanding the difference between hostile and welcoming environments.
Perhaps you need to be exposed to real suffering like hunger, in order to appreciate the luxury of an ice cream.
You want to see suffering? Let’s see if you can cry watching the following “lesson”.
This is what humans are capable of inflicting on “man’s best friend”.
And also an example of empathy in the rescuer.
This is what animals are capable of in a friendly environment.
Please try to become familiar with the world
and on and on.
Lausten here is the problem incarnated of modern popular philosophy has achieve.
Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide
We are evolved biological creatures, a product of Earth’s processes.
Our body is the product of half billion years of a specific bloodline succeeding developing.
Our mind, thoughts, ego, soul are the product of our body communicating with itself, as all living creatures need to be able to do according to their circumstance and needs.
If one has spent no time studying evolution and musing on the pageant through deep-time, that created the environments, that created us. One don’t know time and any of the depth you possess within your skin and bones. And one is left clueless about oneself, not matter how many stories we create.
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Yes. Not to mention just watching kids when I’ve worked at schools and daycares.
No they are just naturally like that because they don’t know better. That’s why they have to be taught to care about others. That’s how all those conflicts with early man happened.
That’s simply false.
It’s not.
No it doesn’t. Empathy only works if you actually care about the other person. Plenty of people can empathize but don’t care, therefor learning nothing.
You keep citing the same lady I already showed to be wrong.
Somehow I doubt that.
It wouldn’t change anything if I was in a warzone, heck I might even welcome it because then I wouldn’t have to off myself.
Again, so what?
Really? Because we have plenty of counter examples of animals doing the opposite, because you know…they’re still wild animals.
I am, the articles you’re citing aren’t really reliable, except maybe BBC.
And I know you didn’t read those articles because several points in there contradict your own, even admitting that animals don’t learn through play.
So…try again.
Hopeless. Egocentricity (Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide) prevents true growth!
No it doesn’t, and I just showed how your evidence is mistaken.
Hopeless. Nihilism (Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide) prevents true growth!
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence.
A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.
While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history.
Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
You are are nihilist with a superiority complex.
So far you have disparaged every institution and every professional involved in these institutions. People with degrees in their “chosen” calling.
IF you want to discard all science and scientist, where are your papers that prove you command of psychology? No papers, no standing.
[quote=“thatoneguy, post:7, topic:11199”]
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The BBC article didn’t have any contra-indicators.
Preparing for peril
Honing hunting
Heeding hierarchy
Mastering motor skills
Practicing for parenthood
Fun for fun’s sake
Perhaps you should have kept reading,
So far, he has seen no evidence that playing with rocks helps macaques learn to put rocks to practical use, …
… But there’s still no clear connection between playfulness and overall abilities, says Angeline Lillard, a psychologist at the University of Virginia. Lillard and colleagues reviewed the state of the science on pretend play and cognitive development in a 2013 report in Psychological Bulletin.
…
So, if play isn’t making animals smarter and honing their life skills, what can it possibly be good for? Its purpose must be more subtle and perhaps more fundamental than once thought, Pellis says. Play may not enhance easy-to-measure things like IQ, but it may prime the brain to cope with the challenges and uncertainties of life.
Consider rats, some of the most play-hungry animals on the planet. When young rats wrestle and run around, Pellis says, they’re testing boundaries and exploring new possibilities. …
Those lessons matter. Studies by Pellis and others have found that young rats deprived of playmates grow up with less-developed prefrontal cortexes, a part of the brain deeply involved in social interactions and decision-making.
These animals also tend to suffer deficits in short term memory, impulse control and the ability to notice or react to threatening gestures from other rats. “If you don’t have play experience with peers, you’re not as good at fighting, you’re not as good at having sex, and you’re not as good at coping with a novel environment that you haven’t encountered before,” Pellis says. …
Even if play serves no evolutionary purpose, it may still be rewarding. Studies show that wrestling rats enjoy a rush of dopamine and other brain chemicals that help to regulate emotion and motivation. …
… the dog that lives to chase tennis balls has discovered a way to exploit that reward system again and again. …
Schulz suspects that this kind of pretend play has some benefits, even if they are hard to measure. “Pretending to fight dragons won’t make you any better at fighting dragons,” she says, but it might be useful in other ways. “They’re setting up a cognitive space where they can create a problem and then solve it.”
(Followed by still more interesting information supporting the notion that play is important to gain skills, physical and mental. )
At this point I’m convinced he will (edit: only) accept something as true and helpful if it directly affects him in the degree to which he desires to helped.
Lausten, what are you trying to say with that?
Why not explicitly layout what he’s ignoring?
Why not give him the change to decide to ignore it, or not?
What is better about inferring that I should slam the door in his face?
Besides him, what about impugning my character and me taking a moment to point out that perhaps he’s the one that needs to be paying more attention to what he’s reading?
Oh and what about the audience? Why not leave something for others to chew on?
ITD is not a binary automotan, he’s engaged in an intellectual, emotional-existential struggle and comes across as a real person, unlike a few other commenters on these CFI boards.
I refuse to believe he’s static, and I believe in windows of opportunity. Since he’s reaching out, why not take a few moments to try and hone some arguments for his mind to play with?
L, very often your comments to my comments come across as “why bother dude.”
I’ll tell you why I bother, I’m a natural teacher, and the teacher’s obligation is to share as much and as well as is within one’s abilities - after that its beyond our control. It’s the journey, not the destination (which is a desert mirage).
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