We have been this way before.
Here’s some passages about what unexamined self-absorption leads to.
Reviews mostly focus on the man’s flirting with suicide, that not what caught me about these lines, it was the description of their time and how well it reflects exactly what is happening today.
So rather than suicide, I’m thinking more in terms of the specter of overwhelming hopelessness - and the struggle to retain, or resurrect the hope our human soul needs.
After all, hope is a survival strategy in hopeless times, which humans sure do force each other to go through, with way the heck too much regularity.
Man’s inhumanity to his fellow man, gobbles my mind.
Being beyond requires getting to know oneself through a science based, Earth Centrist’ perspective. Because we are, after all, evaluated creatures, the cumulative product of hundred of millions of years worth of Earth’s evolutionary processes.
Understanding that is what matters most when it comes to mental and spiritual health, while remaining down to Earth, and that we respect that our Gods are the products of our own human mind, which is product of the human body, brain dealing with the cascade of moments.
Be have been this way before.
When will we ever learn?
This is why my complaining about modern self-satisfied popular philosophy, which serves to confuse, rather than help clarify our down to Earth realities about ourselves
and Who We Are. (A critical element to a sane healthy constructive life)
… along with it’s blinkered worship of the “progress” god, er Faustian Bargain.
The Dispute between a Man and his Ba.
Mar 13, 2013 - Onondaga Community College,
Daniel M Warne’s History-297 “Ancient Egypt” Group Presentation
The poem “A Man and His Ba”, is generally interpreted as an expression of an unknown writer’s suicide note, however this piece could also be perceived as a philosophical debate. The evidence for this piece as a philosophical debate can be seen within the text which does not conclude that a suicide has taken place, while maintaining the philosophical elements in the poem.
The elements of debate which are present within “A Man and His Ba”, suggests that this is in fact one of the earliest accounts of philosophical literature. In addition, evidence could suggest that the writer may be Amenemhet I.
Amenemhet I was a pharaoh from the 12th dynasty who did not commit suicide, and has been involved in the production of other pieces of pessimistic literature such as “The prophecies of Neferti”, and “The Instruction of King Amenemhet I”.
I don’t see this piece as descriptive, I see it as one person’s grappling with their own perceptions and desire to have the freedom to choose accordingly. The commentary on the state of the world he sees is only there as a backdrop to the internal dialog.
As the analysis begins:
The man makes a case for leaving life with evidence of evil and disloyalty among his peers, self-loathing, and his lack of desire to continue living. This is expressed through the man exclaiming that he has no one to talk to because “hearts are greedy, everyone robs his comrade’s goods… Kindness is perished, insolence assaults everyone…. One is content with evil” (Lichtheim, 2006, p.167). The man’s self-loathing within this piece is shown by asserting that “My name reeks….more than carrion small…more than a catch of fish”
From there, it is a debate about individual freedom to deal with the problems of life, any life, versus some greater force that has a say in how we should conduct ourselves. Since this is ancient writing, the “greater force” is gods with a mediator or communicator in the form of the “ba”. Translating to a modern context, the “ba” is symbolic of our sense of responsibility to those who gave us life and those who will come after us.
So, yes, the description reflects exactly what is happening today because that is always happening, there is always evil. There is also always good, but this poem doesn’t mention it.
We are autonomous and we are social. We decide for ourselves and we know we are not alone. The decision of life or death, to be or not to be, is to choose suffering in the face of troubles knowing full well nothing might come of it versus choosing how our struggle ends. As an advocate for choice at the end of life, I know that is an individual choice.
I saw it historically interesting and worth thinking about.
Also what caught me is how relatable that place and time is to the monstrosity we are embarking on today.
Ain’t that a grand conceit after this past half century in America.
I can’t relate to this bubble you live within, I’m watch what’s unfolding outside of my bubble and it’s a horror.
So you didn’t even notice that I’ve transformed the “suicide” meme into the lost of hope theme.
It was simply a mind experiment I wanted to share, each to do with as they chose.
Oh and a reminder that human philosopher have been struggling and failing to grapple with human nature for a long time town. We’d rather believe we are something special and entitled - out of Earth entities and children of the god. What self-conceited tripe.
So did I. I can’t even agree with you anymore without you thinking it’s a problem. “not descriptive” meant not descriptive of his particular time and place, but rather a perspective into his mind. You can find humans harming humans throughout history.
Are you saying humans aren’t social creatures? Since when? I don’t mean we like getting together for cocktail parties, I mean we cooperate in transforming our environment.
I did. But you didn’t notice that I did also, apparently. Again, agreement seems impossible with you.
But you aren’t? I can’t figure this one out. If you can critique every philosopher that has ever lived, then what is it that you know that others don’t? That we are evolved? That’s been done. That we think we are entitled? Google that word, it’s all over the place. That we aren’t children of gods? Philosophers like Voltaire said that a long time ago. Surveys that show half the planet is Christian or Muslim are only looking at a check mark from a list and not recognizing the range of beliefs that actually exist. Look at stats on who says religion is important to them, or who actually attend their services and participate in their religious community, and don’t forget about the half of the Muslim population that are forced to maintain their beliefs.
Right and why do we still not examine it a bit closer.
Why do we simply repeat a history, with such alacrity?
You mean in destroying Earth systems and the physical biosphere we depend on for living prosperous lives.
I WILL critique every philosopher that has never explicitly wrestled with the human mind ~ physical reality divide.
Or who hasn’t explicitly grappled with the realization that our thoughts are producted via our body and brain in the process of living.
I WILL critique every philosopher that has never explicitly examined the fact that since our body produces all - yes, all of our thoughts and emotions while interacting with physical reality - that it is we and our Ego that produce our Gods.
We are not some special give of the God’s to Earth, and Earth wasn’t given to us by some superior God out in the cosmos somewhere.
What should the stats tell, how bad the self-delusion is?
That’s irrelevant to me, the point is to openly examine the bottom line fact that all these phony self-created gods, no matter which Abrahamic sect they identify with, are things we made up to serve our own tribe. And all of it has, as usual, been usurped by then ruthless wealthy to fed their own egos, lust for power and fathomless gluttony.
As for me and why I keep bothering?
*It’s personal thing, I think a lot of people out there have enough scientific information and respect for honest learning, and reject of Ego-driven self-made Gods that these concepts will resonate with their own thoughts, and help them better formulate their own conceptions. This path to at least offers genuine personal enlightenment (you know Who Am I?) with of the kind real world solidity that help one’s soul survive the worst of times.
A planet, where the American citizens just busted America’s 2 1/2 century old commitment to the rule of law and a noble constructive future for humanity. A planet where thoughtless gluttonous people who already have way too much simply keep exploiting and squandering and destroying our resources just as fast as possibly can. A world where the notion of learning from mistakes seems to have been trashed. A world where commitments don’t matter any more.
A world where a lot of people wave around “human nature” yet never stop look enough to get a handle on what science has taught us about our human origins and human nature and human behavior, and human beliefs.
Its simplest outlines, that are echoed by Earth sciences, biology, neurology and evolutionary understanding:
We are biological beings, the product of our Earth’s processes. (Folks, please stop pretending we have special agency or that a higher power gave us Earth to consume as fast as possible. We aren’t the only one’s here!)
Our body is literally the cumulative product of nearly a half a billion years worth of one bloodline surviving generations after generations and learning a bit more with every generation and environmental change, and never missing a single beat.
Our minds are the product of our body/brain/interacting with itself and the outside world, within a reality that is constantly changing, the arrow of time.
Meaning our thoughts, beliefs, faiths are produced from within ourselves, individually and collectively.
The difference between science and religion is their distinct set of rules, both are products of the mind, one strives to remove human bias from it’s deliberations, the other is all about human bias and faith based rigid thinking.
Grappling with these fundamentals leads to the conclusion, that yes, our God’s are real, but they belong to the reality of our human inner world (Human Mindscape - the meta-physical realm), which has tremendous power, even if it’s of the meta-physical kind. Those ideas, can, through our amazing human bodies be transformed into world shattering deeds.
It’s our framing that is all important.
And the moral of that story is, that Earth and her evolved complex biosphere and physical systems are all beyond the stories we tell ourselves. It is the solid matrix that provides the back drop that we human characters play on, and our minds create our Gods.
And our Mother Earth deserves way more interest and respect than she’s receives from our blood drenched hands and western philosophy which is all about glorifying the human above all else. (Heck there’s a wanton disregard that’s always churned at my belly. Merely mentioning “Evolution” is meaningless without a deep appreciation for what actually went down upon this Earth and how it relates to every breath we take.
It’s the gateway for understand this Earth and her processes.
Having a deep down in your guts understanding of that reality makes all the difference in the world to one’s personal expectations. We remain the same, but our priorities shifts once we learn to perceive beyond the bubble of our own mindscape, while environment becomes something personal.
Flash and bling become silly distractions, while a deeper understanding brings a degree of peace to our ever present human existential angst.
Achieving that requires a love of learning along with a kind of brutally honest good-faith curiosity that demands critical thinking and a search for honest answers - over protecting one’s fragile ego. It replaces ego-supremacy with “understanding” as the prize, besides deeper understanding, it brings an inner solidity, that facades can never offer, and that comes in handy in dealing with the horrendous surprises life has become full of.
Sort of like the difference between a lover that’s only concerned with achieving satisfaction - and the lover who can only find satisfaction via bringing their lover to satisfaction.
One takes some effort and caring and attentiveness along with empathy. Learning about evolution and Earth’s complex systems is the same, it requires effort.
And I said I don’t know what planet you live on. You took way too much time describing this planet. The description of the planet is not where we disagree. You asked why we don’t examine the problem of humans harming humans. If I hear you right, and this is not the first time you’ve said something like this, or asked something like this, so I think I do hear you, what I hear is, your logic is that if these things are going on, then it follows that we have not examined them close enough. That is not logical.
You say we need a deeper appreciation of the processes of the Earth, but you stop there. You don’t provide a deeper appreciation, not even a hint of a path to it. Berating anyone who happens your words is your game. You make up words like “perceive beyond the bubble of our mindscape” as if you have the science of perception, but really, you’re no better than Deepak Chopra.
So you’re saying, since Voltaire, Rousseau, Descartes said it and thus helped define our understanding of human behavior - you’re saying that’s enough? The end of understanding? Is that what you are saying? You keep say we know all about evolution, but how has that been incorporated into the Philosophy of Who We Are?
You make it sound like giving evolution and nature environment lip service is good enough?
Seriously - what is your message,
philosophical trope that it’s just the same old and chill it’s okay?
I mean look at the world we have created, World Wrestling Entertainment founder head of the US Department of Education, which is fine because her portfolio will be to vandalize it out of existence. And they are serious!
I mean 2025 will go down as the year humanity crossed over into dystopia. While the proverbial runway for constructively dealing with preparing for extreme weather, etc., is rapidly disappearing.
I mean by and large people, at every level of society people display little but apathy to what we are doing to our atmosphere, oceans, the future. A bit of lip serve and tiny scattered efforts aren’t enough, it required all of us. That was the realities, challenges, that scientists laid down in 1960/‘70s Now there’s nothing left but for a free fall as the crazy get to play games, settle scores and screw up everything we’ve come to depend on, … the future will tell.
We became all about facade and getting as much as possible, with as little sweat equity as possible, that’s a deadly recipe.
Oh and rules of order, and laws and mutual duties and expectations, respect for knowledgeable experts, has become irrelevant. Add to that, hence forth deals will mean nothing, merely another thing to break and toss out.
Complex systems will collapse when no one feels any duty towards each other and abandoned a national ethic that all pledged allegiance to -
What happened? Billionaires as big as governments, and FOX brainwashing started to instill Doubt, resentment, hatred for taxes and government.
Idiotic and one-sided, yet no one of power dare present the persuasive arguments about all our government does, and how we depend on our government - and that our greatest task as citizen was to oversee the kinds of people be put in charge of our government.
It worked fairly well for over two centuries, then the professional mind fuks stepped onto the stage with their mega phones, denying everything that stood in the way of their ruthless drive for ever greater slice of the pie.
We the People soften up by Hollywood Thinking and become comfortable with being “Consumer Units,” agreed: Too much is never enough, and greed is good. While promising never ever to acknowledge or seriously reconcile ourselves with the other side of our prosperity and progress (some call it our sins), all those other peoples and nations, and biospheres we plundered, and so on and so forth.
Why are people so comfortable with intellectual stagnation and provocative facades that offer much titillation but little substance to learn off of?
Your level of knowing about evolution is like a postcard, utterly superficial, no deep-time awareness. An apt analogy is the folks proclaiming: Jesus Saves, then leaving it at that, childish superficiality. Whereas it requires hard work and digging down into the Passion of Jesus, his stations of the cross, and how all that relates to our own human trials and tribulations that we must endure during a difficult unforgiving life.
Only then one start appreciating Jesus’s metaphorical truths regarding our human condition and surviving, even when it requires burning on the cross of our own making, cleansed, and reborn with new perspective (sadder but wiser, and all that).
Jesus can be master of our consciousness, but that’s between you and you.
Jesus is not about our physical Earth, its atoms, molecules, geology, biology, rule of behavior, lots and lots of time and an evolutionary drive beyond human understanding. Nor about after life, when our body dies, our consciousness expires, same as a dynamo that’s stopped spinning will no long produce the magic of electrical power.
Understanding this universe and evolution is beyond our complete understanding. Still we do have amazing evidence for what has unfolded these past billion years, and with our amazing modern instruments, we’ve cracked ever more amazing natural mysteries. Those are lessons that can teach us important truths about ourselves.
It is a failure of philosophy and education systems that everyone isn’t aware that they are evolved biological thinking creatures, products of Earth.
Like all other living creatures, our amazing biology interacting with life, is what produces our consciousness from within. My thoughts are a reflection of my body/brain communicating with itself (see Solms & Demasio for intro into details)
Which means, our thoughts, our consciousness, our very soul is produced from within our body/brain interacting with the world. This means that our God’s are, of course, characters within our individual and collective minds. Whose totality I refer to as Mindscape.
If philosophers had been struggling to absorb scientific realities and build on their understanding to unveil deeper and relevant layers of understanding, especially where it came to personally relating to this planet that our future absolutely depends on.
Instead they focused provocative, if trivial, storytelling along with contrived and misleading questions, such as the “Hard Problem” -
Why cripple pragmatic rationalism when interpreting the whole scope of neurological/physical insights of the past couple decades, with meta-physical question that belong to theology rather than science…
So little good faith curiosity or study into evolutions relevance to our day to day.
You tell me we’ve known about it over a century. But that superficial knowledge simply wasn’t enough to slowed-down ourselves from destroying ourselves and most of this living planet in the process. Now it’s no longer opinion, the unfolding national/global situation says it all.
If modern popular philosophers fancy themselves a success, beyond reproach, then why have a bunch of under educated angry people - people who believe they are God Almighty’s appointed warriors - taken over our country and promised vengeance on all who don’t Believe and bow down to their religious fantasies.
Never realizing their “God” is in actually their own petty frightened Ego defending a facade.
L, If you want to smack me down again,
how about coming up with some highlights of philosophical advances of the past century
and how they have incorporated evolution and help improve our understanding of science and society and our sense of self?
Some would proclaim Ayn Rand, she had an amazingly impact - some called it intellectual. Some even called it philosophical. No one seems to been able to take apart her thesis in any convincing manner and an awful lot sure thought it was all they need to know.
I answer that in many ways in different topics. You repeat the thing you wrote years ago.
Nope. Definitely not saying that. The work is never done. I’m saying you aren’t adding anything. You say more people should incorporate evolution in their speaking, but you don’t say how, you don’t even really do it yourself, you just keep saying we should, you keep saying we are evolved beings. Yeah, we know.
“The work is never done.”
Like Pinker worshipping progress, without having the intellectual honesty to examine the scope of all the violence committed by western relentless greed and inability to honestly self examine.
“you keep saying we are evolved beings. Yeah, we know”
Well it’s still the same disease we are suffering from,
blinded by self-absorption, driven by self-serving shortsighted reflexes,
and a profound apathy toward the importance of learning,
and obsession with consumption, no matter the harm being done by our actions.
“you don’t even really do it yourself,” - How’s that? You don’t know me, you don’t relate to me, you dismiss and ignore me.
You know nothing about my interactions with young minds or how I deal with the day to day.
I’m ready for more serious questions, but you don’t know me enough to get there, we’re still stuck at the introduction. Oh, and what I’m discussing is fundamentals, so don’t know why you think I should be changing it up, it is a better intellectual baseline to start from.
While I keep hearing the same words from you: great minds have already done that, f.o… - yet then why’s it’s seem pretty near no-one has learned the moral of the story?
Heck apparently the collective we are barely noticing the toxic train wreck happening upon our doorsteps.
This election again proved that liberal and intellectually enlightened haven’t a clue how to deal with the nonsense the God-fearing faith based crowd has been getting fed by its billionaire manipulators and brainwashers. Why is that? Or are you going to tell me I’m wrong about that too?
You say I add nothing, how about the key to getting to actually appreciate WHO YOU ARE, which is a biological being!
A creature whose thought’s and beliefs come from within itself.
You say that’s nothing new.
Then why is so rare to hear it discussed it in any serious meaningful manner?
Why do so many believe an all powerful God is personally interested in them?
You don’t even do me the courtesy of noticing I’m careful about clarifying “modern popular philosophy” - Oh and yes, someone like Pinker deserves being berated for that misleading mind candy of his.
really? No. I’m not going to play your troll game where I go and search down previous posts. I do you plenty of courtesy. You need to give a little or this conversation will continue to not be a conversation at all.
That is not the “work” I’m talking about. I’m not going to bother trying to explain because you will do what you just did, twist my words.
What perplexes me the most is your defensiveness -
as if there’s no reason for some deep soul searching about how we got so much so wrong.
And the proof in the pudding, what we’ve done to our children’s future - why are you looking down your nose at me?
Like there’s nothing we can’t do better?
I explain it in detail and if you had given my writing an objective good faith listening to, you’d appreciate that. (V. I’ve never commented)
I do have an understanding and appreciation for those authors and the ideas they shared, based on actually taking the time to read their specific writing and spend time digesting.
What else do I point out - that they knew nothing about biology, evolution, etc? Something they themselves acknowledged!
You have been talking about talking for months now. Follow the basic idea of this forum, present your point of view, from your perspective, and tell us why you think that.
Yeah. You point that out. I keep saying I hear you. We all know that you point that out. I only have to read a few of your posts and I can find where you point that. That’s all you do is point it out.
