i say we have no conscious control over how our minds work. That all minds are acting independently of each other does not affect human decisionmaking.I say this CONTROL is an illusion. However the living our lives certainly exerts an INFLUENCE on our unique decision making. :coolsmirk: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jezz. and I just came by to make some snappy comment about the first episode, having sprung the 15 bucks to buy series, but forgot what I was going to say.
@ LoisL,I went to great pains to respond to this post in detail only to have it not appear! Basically, I said that, unlike computers, which are programmed by humans, it would be impossible for two humans to have the same determining factors, so they would never act exactly alike or makecthe same decisions. LoisComputers, too, make their “decisions" independently of other computers. Are you saying there is a conscious aspect of computer behavior? I don’t think most computers are consciously aware of other computers, do you? winkI assume you made that observation, but regardless who said it , the answer is *of course not" . I actually said the opposite. But if you put te same information into seperate computers and they will come up with the same answer, unlike humans, who, given the same information CAN and DO come up with different answers to the same information. Humans act relative to their point of observation, computers don't.
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. LoisI tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior. I'd love to agree, but even our conscious mind is wholly dependent on the information it receives and processes...] I am just suggesting that when we are consciously aware of something, that can be an active factor in the processing/emission/elicitation of subsequent thought and behavior. I agree with that. Anything we are consciously or subconsciously aware of *determines* our subsequent response... Well that could be an overstatement of the specific point I am trying to make. My suggestion is only: that being consciously aware of something, can be one factor, (and often a salient one) in determining our subsequent response/s. I disagree. I don't think being consciously aware of anything has any impact on our decisions or actions. There are too many factors that would overcome our conscious awareness. Besides that, it's been shown in laboratory tests that humans make decisions before they are consciously aware of them. It all occurs in nanoseconds, but it's been shown that our conscious awareness follows actions, so awareness can have no influence. Lois
@ LoisL,I went to great pains to respond to this post in detail only to have it not appear! Basically, I said that, unlike computers, which are programmed by humans, it would be impossible for two humans to have the same determining factors, so they would never act exactly alike or makecthe same decisions. Lois I agree, we are basicaly saying the same thing in different ways. A perfect example of what we are talking about. The first time that quote came up in post #32, it was atrributed to me.(probably a quoting error). Thus my response. thus your response, thus...... not important.....Computers, too, make their “decisions" independently of other computers. Are you saying there is a conscious aspect of computer behavior? I don’t think most computers are consciously aware of other computers, do you? winkI assume you made that observation, but regardless who said it , the answer is *of course not" . I actually said the opposite. But if you put te same information into seperate computers and they will come up with the same answer, unlike humans, who, given the same information CAN and DO come up with different answers to the same information. Humans act relative to their point of observation, computers don't.
A few different remarks:
It is a presupposition of science that determinism is true. General valid knowledge is only possible when we find fixed relationships between events, i.e. laws of nature. Laws of nature are descriptions of how causality works in given circumstances. Without determinism being true, this would be impossible.
So neurologists do not discover that we are determined: they discover the mechanisms how our brain works. A determinist should never be astonished that brain events have causal preludes. So Libet’s experiments] do not reveal that we are determined. They show a way to measure it.
The only kind of people that might be surprised are dualists, who still think that an independent soul is controlling the brain. They might have seen this independence as the condition of free will. But that would be libertarian free will: the capability to act differently, even if the brain is in exactly the same state.
But there are awful lot of people that on one side believe that we are determined (for all practical purposes), but deny free will on the following ground: that the soul, where thoughts live their conscious life, is completely determined by the brain. This is clearly visible in Lois’ argumentation. She even goes so far as to say that:
a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously.And here, from another thread]:
We are "victims", if you will, of our genes and environment. That we can conceptualize the next scene doesn't mean anything if we can't act on that conceptualization. It's as if we are watching a movie where people are dying left and right. Can we change the script because we can visualize the inevitable end? Not in any movie that I have ever seen.She clearly does not recognise that thoughts are what the brain does. Where it is true that the brain is a determined system, and that thoughts have their material base in the brain, they do belong to the causal chain that causes actions. Otherwise it cannot be explained how consciousness has arisen in evolution: without causal powers, the arising of consciousness cannot be selected for. Obviously the capabilities conscious organisms have: to be aware of their environment, to have an image of the organism itself in this environment, to evaluate the possible outcomes of their actions, to remember the outcome of actions done in its past, are consciousness. And having consciousness is obviously an evolutionary advantage. There is no way we could have predicted that if we would haver discovered such organisms for the first time that they are conscious: there is no external access to consciousness. But we are such organisms, and therefore we know it. Only by placing thoughts outside the brain, one can argue that thoughts have no causal powers. But in reality brain states that have causal powers, e.g. they cause me to walk to a brook to drink because I am thirsty. It is only by being those thoughts that are my consciousness of thirst, and is my knowledge that there is water in that brook over there, that makes them causally effective. The step to assigning free will is then a small one: if I act according my own wishes and beliefs, then my action is free. And that is all what free will ever was: the capability to act according my own wishes and beliefs, for short: to do what I want. And not to want what I want, as Lois wants to have it.
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. LoisI tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior. I'd love to agree, but even our conscious mind is wholly dependent on the information it receives and processes...] I am just suggesting that when we are consciously aware of something, that can be an active factor in the processing/emission/elicitation of subsequent thought and behavior. I agree with that. Anything we are consciously or subconsciously aware of *determines* our subsequent response... Well that could be an overstatement of the specific point I am trying to make. My suggestion is only: that being consciously aware of something, can be one factor, (and often a salient one) in determining our subsequent response/s. I disagree. I don't think being consciously aware of anything has any impact on our decisions or actions. There are too many factors that would overcome our conscious awareness. Besides that, it's been shown in laboratory tests that humans make decisions before they are consciously aware of them. It all occurs in nanoseconds, but it's been shown that our conscious awareness follows actions, so awareness can have no influence. Lois So you're suggesting that my reading your reply, and being conscious and aware of it, has no influence at all on my reply.
And if someone holds a gun to your head, demanding all you money and credit cards, that would not influence your decision making?
All these circumstances come into play when deciding which is the best course of action. In this case the involuntary donation, because it is a decision that will save your life. Under the circumstances that would be a decision in the direction of greatest satisfaction.