The Brain

Science and Technology
21
And IMO, that decision making is always in the *direction of greatest satisfaction* There may lots of choices available, but each individual will choose and act according to their individual circumstances and desires. *CFW*?
Peacegirl? :ahhh: Well, actually that was the one thing I could agree with. It seems to be a natural tendency everywhere.
22
Peacegirl? :ahhh:
Where did that come from?
23
Peacegirl? :ahhh:
Where did that come from? It was one of Peacegirl's main arguments that all things tend to move in the direction of greatest satisfaction (in a very broad sense), which, if true, would be a universal constant. And this would not be in conflict with a mathematical universe. When she said this in another thread, came to mind a swinging pendulum, which eventually will come to rest (equilibrium, satisfaction) closest to the center of gravity. And also would apply to the dynamic nature of *symmetry breaking* and *restoration of symmetry* which could be interpreted as "movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction*.
24
I agree that the self is an illusion and that we don't make independent decisions. I'm a hard determinist. I don't see how you got anythinng different out of what I wrote.
Again with the "we"! "WE don't make independent decisions." Who is this WE you're talking about? All humans. You are free to disagree, but that's how I see it. I don't presume to speak FOR all humans, I am expressing an opinion about how I understand the the human brain to be working, based on scientific research. Many scientists and philosoohers have come to the same comclusion--that our thoughts and decisions are determined by factors beyond our control. That is not what Advocatus is asking, and you do not even understand what he is asking. And when Advocatus explains what he means, you show you still not understand:
Ok, that's your position. I can only ask where you think free will comes from, how it works and whether there is any scientific evidence that it exists and can overcome deterministic factors we are unconscious of.
Instead of responding to his argument, you just throw your methodological hammer again. It just hits air, because it has nothing to do with what Advocatus is saying. The problem is that you treat the mind as a separate entity. You suppose there is an 'I', that can be identified independently of the brain, but is completely determined by it: like a model plane that only reacts on what the remote control dictates him. In that context, your 'unable overcome deterministic factors' is a valid critique. But this context is nonsense, and you know that. But you are not able to think about the consequences of the fact that there is no 'I' separate from the brain. Especially you are not able to see what the consequences for the meaning of free will are. In a dualist context it is simple to define what free will is: if this separate 'I' has (at least some) control over the brain, one has (some) free will; if this separate entity has no control at all, but is totally determined by the brain, then we have no free will. But in a non-dualist context this definition makes no sense. And so the 'discovery' that we are determined cannot decide that the first branch of the dichotomy is false, and therefore we are not free: the dichotomy is not valid at all, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions from it. But I assume this is way above your head.
Where would those wishes and beliefs come from? Are you saying the human brain can "decide" to act outside its determining factors?
If you would read well, then you would see Advocatus is not saying this at all. So the rest of your questions beat thin air.
How would it do that? Where does that independence of thought reside? Can there be independent thoughts that are not determined by precedent? Can you show any evidence of this phenomenon?
Read what people write, Lois, and understand what they are saying, before you give your counter arguments.
25
The illusion of the sun revolving around the earth was strong, too, but humans got over it. LOis
I don't know Lois...I can't see an application of this knowledge in our behaviors becoming a reality.
Many theorists would insist that they have explicitly rejected such an obviously bad idea. But [...] the persuasive imagery of the Cartesian Theater keeps coming back to haunt us—laypeople and scientists alike—even after its ghostly dualism has been denounced and exorcized. — Daniel Dennett, Consciousness Explained
When science finally discovers the process of Cartesian Theater it won't change the fact that it exists. Lois it's pointless to have these discussions with some of these folks. The very things we are trying to explain to them are the same things that prevent them from understanding it. I know, I know. It's a losing game. Lois
26
I know, I know. It's a losing game.
Yes, it is. Especially because the words I made bold are more true than you realise...
Ok, that's your position. I can only ask where you think free will comes from, how it works and whether there is any scientific evidence that it exists and can overcome deterministic factors we are unconscious of.
It really is the only you thing you can in the free will discussion. You cannot understand Advocatus, and answer his question. So you fall back on the only strategy you have: use a definition of free will that presupposes dualism. And you think your are supported by science! But, yes, that is your position... BTW, completely forgot:
You are free to disagree, but that's how I see it.
What do you mean by the bold words?
27
Where would this "free will" come from? Wouldn't it also be a product of brain activity?
Yes, of course it would. Just as the "we" you keep referring to is also a product of the organic processes of the brain. You keep saying that "we" don't make decisions. If we don't, then who does? The organic processes of the brain clearly make creative decisions all the time. The fact that I can sit here, listen to your arguments, compose a creative counter-argument of my own, then decide whether or not I should bother to post it or not, means that a whole series of complex decisions are being made. It doesn't matter at what level these decisions are being made, the important thing is that they are being made. That's still "Me" making those decisions. The Self may be an illusion, but it is an extremely useful illusion or our brains would never have bothered to evolve it. Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. Lois
28
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. Lois
I tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior.
29
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. Lois
I tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior. I'd love to agree, but even our conscious mind is wholly dependent on the information it receives and processes. At best it can be said is that based on *circumstance*, people are free to make decisions relatively independent from other people, unlike say, computers It's truly amazing that we are able to discuss this subject at all. We know we are determined, yet we also know we are free to make determined choices independent of others. That is truly a brain twister....
30

I have been lazy. I left this big travel bag in the hall outside my bedroom. The kind with wheels.
I stubbed my toe on it a couple of times in the past weeks. I kept telling myself to put it back in the closet.
This morning I really stubbed my toe on it hard. Enough to see lightning bolts in front of my eyes.
Enough to make me a bit woozy for a second.
I picked up the bag and hobbled it into the closet.

31
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. Lois
I tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior. I'm not sure it does. Can you give an example?
32
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. Lois
I tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior. I'd love to agree, but even our conscious mind is wholly dependent on the information it receives and processes. At best it can be said is that based on *circumstance*, people are free to make decisions relatively independent from other people, unlike say, computers Computers, too, make their "decisions" independently of other computers. Are you saying there is a conscious aspect of computer behavior? I don't think most computers are consciously aware of other computers, do you? ;) It's truly amazing that we are able to discuss this subject at all. We know we are determined, yet we also know we are free to make determined choices independent of others. That is truly a brain twister.... Human "choices" are independent of others, but they are still controlled by each individual's own set of determining factors. i say we have no conscious control over how our minds work. That all minds are acting independently of each other does not affect human decisionmaking. Our decisionmaking is internal and everyone's is different from everyone else's.
33

@ LoisL,

Computers, too, make their “decisions" independently of other computers. Are you saying there is a conscious aspect of computer behavior? I don’t think most computers are consciously aware of other computers, do you? wink
I assume you made that observation, but regardless who said it , the answer is *of course not" . I actually said the opposite. But if you put te same information into seperate computers and they will come up with the same answer, unlike humans, who, given the same information CAN and DO come up with different answers to the same information. Humans act relative to their point of observation, computers don't.
34
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. Lois
I tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior. I'm not sure it does. Can you give an example? Sure. I am consciously aware of reading this post. This acts as a cue for my reply. If I were not conscious or aware of your question, I doubt that I would have replied.
35
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. Lois
I tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior. I'd love to agree, but even our conscious mind is wholly dependent on the information it receives and processes...] I am just suggesting that when we are consciously aware of something, that can be an active factor in the processing/emission/elicitation of subsequent thought and behavior.
36
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. Lois
I tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior. I'd love to agree, but even our conscious mind is wholly dependent on the information it receives and processes...] I am just suggesting that when we are consciously aware of something, that can be an active factor in the processing/emission/elicitation of subsequent thought and behavior. I agree with that. Anything we are consciously or subconsciously aware of *determines* our subsequent response. A stark example: Normally we abhor and try to avoid pain. Yet a masochist enjoys and seeks pain (usually for sexual gratification). Two completeky different responses to the same situation. It is interesting to note the French expression *la petit mort* (the little death) in reference to *orgasm*.
37
Our brain makes decisions based on factors we have no conscious control of. The script is written and revised every moment, and we are unaware if it. The self is an illusion as are all of our decisions. I think it does matter to our understanding if ouselves and the universe that we realize that we have no independent control over our thoughts or decisions. but, of course, whether we realize it or not is also determined by unconscious factors. So a valid point can be made that it never matters what we think consciously. Lois
I tend to agree with all of these statements, except the last one. It is not a valid point to say that "it never matters what we think consciously". Because, obviously, what we think consciously, sometimes acts as a discriminative stimulus for other subsequent behavior. I'd love to agree, but even our conscious mind is wholly dependent on the information it receives and processes...] I am just suggesting that when we are consciously aware of something, that can be an active factor in the processing/emission/elicitation of subsequent thought and behavior. I agree with that. Anything we are consciously or subconsciously aware of *determines* our subsequent response... Well that could be an overstatement of the specific point I am trying to make. My suggestion is only: that being consciously aware of something, can be one factor, (and often a salient one) in determining our subsequent response/s.
38
Surely respect is due on both sides of the podium and the real debate must be always learning, dedicated, caring, and most of all, focused on the goal of human betterment for community of values.
Wow, than line blind-sided me. Who is it that believes in those values here in 2015, just curious… Ok, back to what you were writing.
39
Everyone who cares to know, is aware that habits can change for personal reasons or environmental. These are autonomous actions. These are free will constrained by rationality and fueled by desire. No test, and no nuero magician, has suggested otherwise. Free will is not free for all choices have a price. The false dichotomy between freewill and autonomy is the simple black and white, all or nothing, thinking pattern. In the end, the major question may be, who are you as a unique human, and how involved in your own work and humanity are you? "You" means the little part that decides in all the different ways humans decide.
I like that. Has the smell of living one's real life. It's like the difference between a report from the front lines of the action, as opposed to some correspondent pontificating on something from a comfortable distance.
40
Human "choices" are independent of others, but they are still controlled by each individual's own set of determining factors. i say we have no conscious controlled over how our minds work. That all minds are acting independently of each other does not affect human decisionmaking. Our decisionmaking is internal and everyone's is different from everyone else's.
What is this CONTROL you speak of? What is doing the CONTROLLING?
But if you put te same information into seperate computers and they will come up with the same answer,
Is that actually true? I don't think so. What about complexity? chaos theory, …. strange attractors, …. and such? Put the same weather data into six computers along with the same program and series of algorithms and models - and I'm pretty sure they will not product the same results - relatively close, or not, but never the same. And it's a fundamental issue, not a problem of quality of data or model run but an underlying component of the nature we are studying.