Give up your car. Give up 95% of the products you buy.So, you completely ignored every point I made in my "soliloquy", and then go right back to committing the "Argument From Hypocrisy" fallacy. So let me briefly reexplain why what you suggest is both impractical and misguided. You see, if I were, on principle, to give up my car and 95% of the products I buy, not only would it greatly damage most of my social and family connections and my ability to make a living and probably cause me to go into a deep depression, it would also make absolutely no difference towards addressing human-caused global warming and other environmental problems. If, on the other hand, we hypocrites direct our efforts at changing environmental laws (that require us all to change our lifestyles at the same time), discouraging political corruption, voting for politicians that actually believe in science, etc., then maybe--just maybe--positive changes can occur. Or, we can just deny the scientific consensus, and call everyone who's not perfect hypocrites. I guess that's a good plan too.
You see, if I were, on principle, to give up my car and 95% of the products I buy, not only would it greatly damage most of my social and family connections and my ability to make a living and probably cause me to go into a deep depression, it would also make absolutely no difference towards addressing human-caused global warming and other environmental problems.Right, so one has to burn fossil fuels to ban fossil fuels, I got ya now. The projected figures for worldwide coal and oil consumption don't show any let up in usage. Just a steady uptick. But maybe that's a good thing. The more the World uses, the more aware we all become of the dangers. Everybody can use your reasoning("...if I were, on principle, to give up my car and 95% of the products I buy, it would make absolutely no difference towards addressing human-caused global warming and other environmental problems.") and it will all just go away. Millions of new Chinese consumers using fossil fuels to reduce the usage of fossil fuels.
BugRib, I thought you made a good point, but then a hallmark of this dialogue is ignoring what people are trying to explain as V demonstrates.
Perhaps, in a hopeless situation, why even try - toss in the towel.
And follow the alternative approach that the Republican/Libertarian masters of the universe have been so successful at shoving down our throat.
Is the problem too overwhelming, well hell ignore it!
Unfortunately, the real planet we depend on doesn’t give a damned about our quaint handwringing, maybe V feels good about what’s coming down the line, humans were always too greedy and near-sighted to deserve the fantastical planet we were born out of and in to. Time to give the planet back to the insects and reptiles (perhaps a few mammalian species) then in another five or ten million years, there will be another greatest show Earth happening.
PS
World Bank Turn Down the Heat: Climate Extremes, Regional Impacts, and the Case for Resilience http://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/climatechange/publication/turn-down-the-heat-climate-extremes-regional-impacts-resilience http://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/climatechange/overview Climate change is a fundamental threat to development and the fight against poverty. The World Bank Group is concerned that without bold action now, the warming planet threatens to put prosperity out of reach of millions and roll back decades of development. The science is unequivocal that humans are the cause of global warming, and major changes are already being observed. Since the turn of the century (2000–2013), each year has ranked among the 15 warmest since record keeping began 134 years ago. The intensity of extreme weather-related events has also increased. Recent experience is a stark reminder that no country — rich or poor — is immune from the impacts of climate-related disasters today. Turn Down the Heat, a snapshot of the latest climate science prepared for the Word Bank by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, says we are on a path to a 4°C (7.2°F) warmer world by the end of this century. The report provides a clear picture of the devastating impacts on agriculture, water resources, ecosystems, and human health. ...Now if it weren't for the non-stop attack on science, based on broad spectrum LIES, by predominately Republican/Libertarian interests - well I guess I shouldn't forget the Christian fundamentalists who hate this planet anyways and can't wait to get to their heaven {and whom I imagine just as soon fuk up this planet a little, just out of principle - to show them Greenie who's boss.}. In any event, if the public had been allowed to chew on the real science behind why our rampant fossil fuels consumption is suicidal - many things could/would have been done differently - and perhaps we'd have had a fighting chance with slowing the on-set global warming - but nah, Hummers and conspicuous consumption is where it's at, so instead of driving with a little caution, we are running the engine flat out, while keeping our eyes glued to the rear view mirror. If the people and politicians were actually aware of the scientific facts - instead of having all their lies to hide behind - that insane Tar Sands Project would have never gotten off the ground. Thus, even though I've given up on the outcome - I will continue bitching at folks who thinks it's OK to misrepresent the science.
The sad irony is that when it comes to making war - we do it so easily.
no matter how little justification, or how much disruption, cost, pain - or future self-inflicted wounds we create, the need to war is greater.
Blast the Middle East back to the worst of the dark ages and tribalism - it’s what we call fighting to protect our freedom.
Ironically, then after all the pain inflicted on all the innocents, and ourselves, we give back five of the worst terrorists for a US deserter - see it’s just a game -
the powers get to do whatever they want and the sheople go along with it.
Had there been any will at the top, many transitions to a saner, sustainable, energy policy would have been quite easy.
CC, you’re reading too much into this.
My goal with these posts goes way beyond attempting to label anyone as hypocrites.
And my view on this isn’t a fatalist view either.
My angle here is a study of human perceptions with regards to viewing each of us within a system and viewing each of us as outside a system.
Again “hypocrite” doesn’t cover what I’m trying to address here. But everyone’s selfish, defensive reactions to this idea of “hypocrite”
is hilarious and telling at the same time.
I find it fascinating how people can view themselves as separate from and criticize an essential component of their survival.
Bugrib’s reply was an excellent example of this. The idea that somehow we are helpless. That we are victims.
The idea that there are nefarious central characters(like in a Dr. Seuss book) that somehow perpetuate pollution and that we are “victims” under their evil spell is hilarious. If those characters do exist-we make them. We are them! They are US!
Creating these characters is an easy, exploitative method to deflect blame or understanding away from the reality of the specific system involved.
I don’t mean “system”(as in “You can’t beat the system Man!!”). I mean an actual system. A set of components and relationships.
It’s interesting to see subsets within a system rail against the system itself when they perceive they are not part of the system.
And when they actually have no real understanding of the system. Truly.
Can this be a process of change? Change is not the correct word in this context. Evolve is a better word.
{sorry about the line length, I ran out of time so didn’t fix. Why does it do that?}
CC, you're reading too much into this. My goal with these posts goes way beyond attempting to label anyone as hypocrites. And my view on this isn't a fatalist view either. My angle here is a study of human perceptions with regards to viewing each of us within a system and viewing each of us as outside a system. Again "hypocrite" doesn't cover what I'm trying to address here. But everyone's selfish, defensive reactions to this idea of "hypocrite" is hilarious and telling at the same time. I find it fascinating how people can view themselves as separate from and criticize an essential component of their survival. Bugrib's reply was an excellent example of this. The idea that somehow we are helpless. That we are victims.BugRib pointed out we are all in this system together, want to divorce yourself from the system and about the only realistic choice is to become a street person and live off the crumbs of others - or be original and find a Topanga Canyon you can hide in, then go down to the village to search for crumbs.
The idea that there are nefarious central characters(like in a Dr. Seuss book) that somehow perpetuate pollution and that we are "victims" under their evil spell is hilarious. If those characters do exist-we make them. We are them! They are US!Dude you got a huge industry dedicated to misrepresenting science and playing dirty tricks. Now, don't tell me you don't think that's going on? Christ most the nation doesn't even realize that something 97% of the experts in the field say the important science is settled, what's left to figure out is dirty details… but we know dang well what's going on and why… and it's us!
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/features/dirty-money-climate-30032010/ - March 30, 2010 Billionaire tycoon David Koch likes to joke that Koch Industries is, "The biggest company you’ve never heard of". But the nearly US$50 million that he and his brother Charles quietly funnelled to front groups which deny that climate change is a problem is no joking matter. Our new report shows how that cash, between 1997 and 2008, went to groups working to prevent action being taken against climate change. Also see http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/campaigns/global-warming-and-energy/polluterwatch/koch-industries/Dirty Money: Big Oil and corporate polluters spent over $500 million to kill climate bill, push offshore drilling BY JOE ROMM SEPTEMBER 27, 2010 http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2010/09/27/206784/dirty-money-oil-companies-special-interest-polluters-spend-millions-to-kill-climate-bil/Dirty Money, By Matthew Yglesias http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2012/01/fossil_fuel_subsidies_and_global_warming_we_could_cut_the_climate_change_problem_in_half_simply_by_abolishing_inefficient_fossil_fuel_subsidies_.html The astonishing new data showing that simply eliminating inefficient fossil fuel subsidies could achieve half the world’s carbon reduction goals. What if I told you that we could obtain half the reduction in carbon emissions needed to stave off climate disaster not with new government interventions in the economy but simply by removing existing interventions? Fatih Birol, chief economist of the International Energy Agency is telling you exactly that. In data released this month as part of the IEA’s latest World Energy Outlook report, he shows that in 2010 the world spent $409 billion on subsidizing the production and consumption of fossil fuels, dwarfing the word’s $66 billion or so of subsidies for renewable energy. Phasing fossil fuel subsidies out would be sufficient to accomplish about half the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions needed to meet the goal of preventing average world temperatures from rising more than 2 degrees Celsius.
Creating these characters is an easy{They created themselves!}, exploitative method to deflect blame or understanding away from the reality of the specific system involved. I don't mean "system"(as in "You can't beat the system Man!!"). I mean an actual system. A set of components and relationships. It's interesting to see subsets within a system rail against the system itself when they perceive they are not part of the system. And when they actually have no real understanding of the system. Truly. Can this be a process of change? Change is not the correct word in this context. Evolve is a better word.I have never pretended that I'm not part of the system (PS. I got 10,000+ miles and 21 states and Calgary, Canada under my belt driving an 18 wheeler, heck an old Cummins cab-over type where you become intimate with every flaw in the road) [more accurately an International Cab-over a 220 Cummins Engine, ten speed five up five down and a tag axle, a fun little thing called.]; (I've also worked underground at Sunnyside Gold Mine (though that was only a two month gig until the mill position opened up~ and at their mill) (I spent an autumn and winter working for a Launch Service that supplied the oil tankers unloading at Anacortes WA - even got stuck top side once when the weather turned too dangerous for lowering me back to the boat in the net… so I got the grand tour including their three story engine) (not to mention my extensive Framing Carpentry experiences.) Almost forgot, (I've also been out on a couple fishing trips in a Shrimp trawler, as the "Header" low guy on a three man crew - out of Aransas Pass, Texas - and spent half year Stewarding on a Gas Production Rig [actually Gas Production 'platform'] about an hour's helicopter ride south of Lake Charles, LA ~ "Heading" has to do with the way you sort out the shrimp from all the by-catch and flick your thumb into the back of the poor fellow's neck and pop, into the ice bin it goes, sans the head.) Yea, someday I gotta write down the list of jobs I've been able to sample, it is rather mind blowing and fun to think back on it... and it's incredibly heart breaking to realize that sort of life adventure is now closed to the kids escaping high school. Guess I'm trying to say, I have gotten around and seen (and thought about) a lot more of what makes this country operate than most and I do have a deep appreciation for our incredible accomplishments… too bad so many take those accomplishments for granted - it's going to bite us good. I got my passion and my side, but ain't no innocent.
Can you please fix your post CC? It’s too wide and requires scrolling to read.
CC, you're reading too much into this. My goal with these posts goes way beyond attempting to label anyone as hypocrites. And my view on this isn't a fatalist view either. My angle here is a study of human perceptions with regards to viewing each of us within a system and viewing each of us as outside a system. Again "hypocrite" doesn't cover what I'm trying to address here. But everyone's selfish, defensive reactions to this idea of "hypocrite" is hilarious and telling at the same time. I find it fascinating how people can view themselves as separate from and criticize an essential component of their survival. Bugrib's reply was an excellent example of this. The idea that somehow we are helpless. That we are victims. The idea that there are nefarious central characters(like in a Dr. Seuss book) that somehow perpetuate pollution and that we are "victims" under their evil spell is hilarious. If those characters do exist-we make them. We are them! They are US! Creating these characters is an easy, exploitative method to deflect blame or understanding away from the reality of the specific system involved. I don't mean "system"(as in "You can't beat the system Man!!"). I mean an actual system. A set of components and relationships. It's interesting to see subsets within a system rail against the system itself when they perceive they are not part of the system. And when they actually have no real understanding of the system. Truly. Can this be a process of change? Change is not the correct word in this context. Evolve is a better word.V, I appreciate your perspective, here. I think that you are often misunderstood. (Not in a "poor misunderstood victim" sense. More in the sense of " effective communication of ideas requires such unique and sometimes fluid conditions that match up on the part of both the speaker and the listener". It can be like trying to tune in to, or send out, a weak radio signal, while the frequency is perpetually subject to subtle shifts.)
First, CC don’t put down Topanga Canyon. When I was very young, my first wife and I almost bought a little house there, and Mr. Espey (master’s from Oxford). the best English and exposition instructor I ever had lived there.
Second, I certainly agree with Vy. I HATE, HATE, HATE having to scroll back and forth because someone has posted something beyond the standard margins. When you post and see that’s happened, immediately go to ‘edit’ then go through and hit return just short of a margin for each line. That makes the posts much easier to read.
Third, I understand what you’re saying Vy, but it’s much easier on everyone if you try to be a bit more gentle and accepting of the other posters, even if you disagree with what they are saying.
Occam
What? Why do you think I believe it's ok to lie? Seriously, what line of reasoning or logic did you use to come up with that?Hey, VYAZMA. I think, fair or not, people are under the impression that you either don't believe in anthropogenic global warming; you prefer to blame the average Jane/Joe rather than the larger forces that are preventing us from addressing AGW; or you're simply fatalistic about it. You've said you're not fatalistic about it, but rather than discussing possible solutions, you've spent nearly the entire thread accusing all the posters of hypocrisy. The point is, you really haven't made your position clear. So my questions for you are: -Do you or don't you agree with the overwhelming scientific consensus on AGW? -Who do you think is primarily to blame for AGW: The average Jane/Joe?--or--Corrupt lawmakers and their corporate corruptors? Or do you think they're equally morally culpable? (i.e. Am I just as bad for driving my car to work and buying things at WalMart to feed and house my family as a multi-millionaire who bribes lawmakers to block environmentally friendly legislation?) -What do you think we, as individuals, should do about AGW?
BugRib, I like your thinking more all the time.
I’m with you and will chill my wheels… and fix that thread.
I think your’s are good questions.
First, CC don't put down Topanga Canyon. When I was very young, my first wife and I almost bought a little house there, and Mr. Espey (master's from Oxford). the best English and exposition instructor I ever had lived there. OccamDon't get me wrong I'm not - it was beautiful for sure, hopefully it still is, at least a little. Back about that time, '79 (when you were very young ;-) ) I spent a couple days there right after returning from my Germany/Switzerland adventure - quite the introduction for Franz my German pal who flew over with me to hitchhiked around for about a month before returning to Germany, leaving me to another whole crazy magical mystery tour that wound up landing me in Silverton, Colorado and the rest of my life. Got a ride from some very cool people, er hippies, that took us to their Topanga Canyon quarters - off up in the woods living in self-made plastic tents with house keeping to make any street person proud. Sounded like there were plenty of other folks up there off the grid - quite the alternate community they had going. I doubt any of that is happening any more. Maybe I should give up on the lost global warming awareness crusade and try to convert to a story teller and write some fun stuff, cause I got a suit case full of interesting and for the most part fun times, though I could write a couple quite sad chapters too.
Sorry Fuzzy. I haven’t forgotten.
Are you familiar with these folks?
strengthening, maintaining, and respecting traditional teachings and natural laws
About IEN 20 Year AnniversaryEstablished in 1990 within the United States, IEN was formed by grassroots Indigenous peoples and individuals to address environmental and economic justice issues (EJ). IEN’s activities include building the capacity of Indigenous communities and tribal governments to develop mechanisms to protect our sacred sites, land, water, air, natural resources, health of both our people and all living things, and to build economically sustainable communities.IEN accomplishes this by maintaining an informational clearinghouse, organizing campaigns, direct actions and public awareness, building the capacity of community and tribes to address EJ issues, development of initiatives to impact policy, and building alliances among Indigenous communities, tribes, inter-tribal and Indigenous organizations, people-of-color/ethnic organizations, faith-based and women groups, youth, labor, environmental organizations and others. IEN convenes local, regional and national meetings on environmental and economic justice issues, and provides support, resources and referral to Indigenous communities and youth throughout primarily North America – and in recent years – globally. GOALS: Educate and empower Indigenous Peoples to address and develop strategies for the protection of our environment, our health, and all life forms – the Circle of Life. Re-affirm our traditional knowledge and respect of natural laws. Recognize, support, and promote environmentally sound lifestyles, economic livelihoods, and to build healthy sustaining Indigenous communities. Commitment to influence policies that affect Indigenous Peoples on a local, tribal, state, regional, national and international level. Include youth and elders in all levels of our work. Protect our human rights to practice our cultural and spiritual beliefs.
Impacts to US and Canadian Indigenous Communities http://www.ienearth.org/what-we-do/tar-sands/ In Northern Alberta, laying beneath 10.6 MILLION ACRES (4.3 million hectares), an area the size of Florida, are tar sands that are a mixture of sand, clay, and a heavy crude oil or tarry substance called bitumen. To get this substance out of the ground - process the bitumen into heavy crude oil the industry strips all the trees, plants, and critical habitat called "over-burden" or an 'in-situ" or at the site/in place extraction method. To process the extracted bitumen in upgraders to synthetic crude oil that is then piped to the U.S. for refining. These upgrade facilities require large areas that are more like cities, with smoke stacks bellowing pollutants into the air and the wastewater from the process are emptied and stored in huge toxic tailings ponds that can be seen from space. For each barrel of oil produced from the tar sands takes from 110 to 350 gallons of water (or 2 to 6 barrels) of water. In 2007, Alberta's government approved the withdrawal of 119.5 BILLON gallons of water for tar sands extraction. An estimated 82% of this water comes from the Athabasca River. Toxic wastewater is discharged in holding or tailing ponds that now leak 11 million liters of toxic waste per day into the Athabasca and seep into the ground water. This water flows northward (downstream) further into Indigenous territories. Since this toxic waste has been flowing into the river and seeping into the groundwater - rare and virulent cancers have affect many of the Indigenous Community members- and fish and game have been found with physical abnormalities and deformations and tumors in fish. Impacts: Currently, tar sands operations are licensed to divert 652 million cubic meters of fresh water each year, 80% from the Athabasca River. In comparison, this amounts to approximately 7 times the annual water needs of the city of Edmonton. About 1.8 million cubic metres of this water becomes highly toxic tailings waste each day. In 2008, tar sands operations produced 37.2 megatonnes of greenhouse gas emissions, an increase of 121% between 1990 and 2008. Planned tar sands growth indicates a near tripling of emissions between 2008 and 2020, to a projected 108 megatonnes. In 2006, unexpectedly high rate of rare cancers were reported in the community of Fort Chipewyan. In 2008, Alberta Health confirmed a 30% rise in the number of cancers between 1995 -2006. However, the study lacks appropriate data and is considered a conservative estimate by many residents. Caribou populations have been severely impacted by tar sands extraction. The Beaver Lake Cree First Nation has experienced a 74% decline of the Cold Lake herd since 1998 and a 71% decline of the Athabasca River herd since 1996. Today, just 175 – 275 caribou remain. By 2025, the total population is expected to be less than 50 and locally extinct by 2040.
First, CC don't put down Topanga Canyon. When I was very young, my first wife and I almost bought a little house there, and Mr. Espey (master's from Oxford). the best English and exposition instructor I ever had lived there. Second, I certainly agree with Vy. I HATE, HATE, HATE having to scroll back and forth because someone has posted something beyond the standard margins. When you post and see that's happened, immediately go to 'edit' then go through and hit return just short of a margin for each line. That makes the posts much easier to read. Third, I understand what you're saying Vy, but it's much easier on everyone if you try to be a bit more gentle and accepting of the other posters, even if you disagree with what they are saying. OccamAs for text that's too wide, I think that's a (mis)function of the program. I never hit return and my lines do not run off the page. The program is supposed to handle this. Lois
I think the forum software is ‘nearly perfect’. %-P
But it has problems when a word is too long: breaks are automatically made at blanks, but a word that is hundreds of characters long are not automatically broken, and so the line becomes longer, and with it the complete web page (not just the posting!) that contains that word.
The evil-doer in this case was CC’s extreme long link. To avoid this, use the function of the forum. (As an example: here] is the same link as CC provided. I always make links bold, otherwise it is not always clear that the text is a link).
Another reason can be too big images that are displayed in the forum itself. Possible solutions:
- instead of displaying the image, refer to it with a link with the function.
- find a smaller version of it (e.g. Wikipedia often has the same image in different sizes)
- Not everybody’s thing: download the image, make it smaller, and attach it to your posting (but it has some severe limitations: only 75 kB and max size 600x400 (if I remember that correctly))
My few cents for the ‘better forum experience’.
Hey, VYAZMA. I think, fair or not, people are under the impression that you either don't believe in anthropogenic global warming; you prefer to blame the average Jane/Joe rather than the larger forces that are preventing us from addressing AGW; or you're simply fatalistic about it.Yeah. I got that impression too. That's why I partially addressed it in my last post.
GdB, thanks for the info -
bad link, bad link.
I think the main wide page cause is when someone has or writes a post offline in their standard word processor then copies it as a block into a post. This program then puts it up using the line breaks in the post rather than deleting them and entering the ones to fit these pages. That’s when you should reformat to shorter lines before posting it.
Thanks, CC if you think I was very young in 1979 since I was 48 going on 49 that year. 
Occam
I think the main wide page cause is when someone has or writes a post offline in their standard word processor then copies it as a block into a post. This program then puts it up using the line breaks in the post rather than deleting them and entering the ones to fit these pages. That's when you should reformat to shorter lines before posting it. Thanks, CC if you think I was very young in 1979 since I was 48 going on 49 that year. :) OccamThat's pretty young in my book! Lois
I think the forum software is 'nearly perfect'. %-P But it has problems when a word is too long: breaks are automatically made at blanks, but a word that is hundreds of characters long are not automatically broken, and so the line becomes longer, and with it the complete web page (not just the posting!) that contains that word. The evil-doer in this case was CC's extreme long link. To avoid this, use the function of the forum. (As an example: here] is the same link as CC provided. I always make links bold, otherwise it is not always clear that the text is a link). Another reason can be too big images that are displayed in the forum itself. Possible solutions: - instead of displaying the image, refer to it with a link with the function. - find a smaller version of it (e.g. Wikipedia often has the same image in different sizes) - Not everybody's thing: download the image, make it smaller, and attach it to your posting (but it has some severe limitations: only 75 kB and max size 600x400 (if I remember that correctly)) My few cents for the 'better forum experience'.And try not to use supercalifragilisticexpialidocious-antidisestablishmentarianism too often in a sentence.